Can a penance last the rest of my life?

[TimothyH]

So what is the difference between forgiveness and in the fullness of righteousness in the eyes of God? I’m not challenging, simply asking the question.

As a practical matter, righteousness in the eyes of God is what we are all after, no? Does it not follow that, if the fullness of righteousness in the eyes of God is not achieved until pennance is complete then the goal is not met until after pennance?

I’m not talking theology here. I’m speaking from a purely pragmatic standpoint. The process is not complete, the end game has not been achieved.

Personally, If the end game is to rest my head on Jesus’ bosom like the disciple whom Jesus loved did at the last supper then I’m doing the pennance.

-Tim-

 

[baltobetsy]

I don’t really understand why YOU can not check on this yourself.

I recited the above from memory. And, I don’t have to check, because I KNOW.

I’m almost 60 years old.

The memory derives from my experience of being TAUGHT the catechism of the church in grade school 53 years ago. It has never left me, nor have I left it…

Obviously, that catechism is no longer being taught.

That is sad. However, knowledge of one’s faith is still a personal responsibility for which we will all be answerable one day.

Believing what one reads on a computer website is clearly part of the problem.

This is the numbered paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1. For this reason, after the sinner has confessed his sins, he receives a penance from the priest. The penance must be completed in order for the Sacrament of Confession to be completed in itself and for the soul of the sinner to be reinstated in the fullness of righteousness in the eyes of God.

I invited you to check on this yourself to spare you the embarrassment of finding publicly that you are mistaken. In my copy of the Baltimore Catechism Number Two (from 1966, when I studied it the second or third time), it says this at number 384:

Q: What must we do to receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily?
A: To receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily we must:
first, examine our conscience;
second, be sorry for our sins;
third, have the firm purpose of not sinning again;
fourth, confess our sins to the priest;
fifth, **to be willing to perform the penance **the priest gives us.

My Catechism of the Catholic Church does not have a paragraph numbered 78 on this subject at all. May I direct you to Number 1459 which says, on the subject of the assigned penance, in part, “…** Absolution takes away sin,** but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health…”

(All bolding mine in both quotes.)

The birthday I will celebrate next week comes dangerously close to #60 as well.

I note that you are a fairly new member of Catholic Answers Forums. Your time here will be much more pleasant if you at least check your sources before you approach with guns blazing, corrections flying and a readiness to criticize your fellow members.

 

[SaintGobban]

I invited you to check on this yourself to spare you the embarrassment of finding publicly that you are mistaken. In my copy of the Baltimore Catechism Number Two (from 1966, when I studied it the second or third time), it says this at number 384:

Q: What must we do to receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily?
A: To receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily we must:
first, examine our conscience;
second, be sorry for our sins;
third, have the firm purpose of not sinning again;
fourth, confess our sins to the priest;
fifth, **to be willing to perform the penance **the priest gives us.

My Catechism of the Catholic Church does not have a paragraph numbered 78 on this subject at all. May I direct you to Number 1459 which says, on the subject of the assigned penance, in part, “…** Absolution takes away sin,** but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health…”

(All bolding mine in both quotes.)

The birthday I will celebrate next week comes dangerously close to #60 as well.

I note that you are a fairly new member of Catholic Answers Forums. Your time here will be much more pleasant if you at least check your sources before you approach with guns blazing, corrections flying and a readiness to criticize your fellow members.

You see, when **YOU **checked, you were able to find the exact place where my prior statements about the requirements for a valid confession were verified;. the statements I made from **remembering **my second grade catechism; the statements that you told me I should check because they were in error…

I wonder why you couldn’t find that list, almost my exact words, before you attempted to correct me? But in any case, nice job on finding the list.

So, let’s summarize: one must complete their Penance in order to have completed the Sacrament of Penance. Completing the sacrament is necessary for forgiveness. No completion, no Sacrament.

I believe this is pretty much the entire substance of the debate here.

My husband’s response to this debate was, “everyone knows that.” In fact, this list IS something you must have been taught at one point in order to receive the Sacrament of Penance.

The debate has been resolved satisfactorily.

Now, as to having a life-long penance: I don’t believe that is possible, because the penance must be completeable.

I suspect that the priest was merely suggesting that this would be a good practice.

Although quite frankly, I honestly can not imagine any priest suggesting this at all in this day and age. Not that it isn’t a really good idea. I would love to know more details about what order of priest this was.

If it were me, I would take the matter up with an older, knowledgeable priest in my next Confession.

 

[SaintGobban]

Just a little addendum to the above:

*For Validity of the Sacrament: Matter and form

According to St. Thomas (Summa Theologiæ III.74.2) “the acts of the penitent(namely contrition, confession, and satisfaction) are the proximate matter of this sacrament”. This is also the teaching of Eugenius IV in the “Decretum pro Armenis” (Council of Florence, 1439) which calls the act’s “quasi materia” of penance and enumerates them as contrition, confession, and satisfaction (Denzinger-Bannwart, “Enchir.”, 699).

The Thomists in general and other eminent theologians, e.g., Bellarmine, Toletus, Francisco Suárez, and De Lugo, hold the same opinion. According to Scotus (In IV Sent., d. 16, q. 1, n. 7) “the Sacrament of Penance is the absolution imparted with certain words” while the acts of the penitent are required for the worthy reception of the sacrament*

In sum, the acts of the penitent [including performing of the penance (satisfaction)] is the “matter” of this Sacrament. The absolution is the “form” of this Sacrament.
Both must exist in order for the Sacrament to be imparted.

 

[Pakesh]

SaintGoban,

Since I don’t readily have a copy of the Catechism with me, can you show, conclusively, that penance must be completed for the absolution of sins? I’m not convinced.

God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[SaintGobban]

This is taken from the 14th session of the Council of Trent, Chapter III

"But the acts of the penitent himself, namely, contrition,15 confession and satisfaction, constitute the matter of this sacrament, which acts, inasmuch as they are by God’s institution required in the penitent for the integrity of the sacrament and for the full and complete remission of sins, are for this reason called the parts of penance."

Satisfaction means penance.

Every Sacrament requires matter and form.

For the Sacrament of Penance, the matter is the contrition, confession of sins, and performance of the penance by the penitant. The form is the absolution of the priest.
Both must be present in order for the Sacrament to be imparted.

If the penance is not perfomed, the Sacrament is not imparted. If the Sacrament is not imparted, you are not forgiven.

 

[baltobetsy]

You see, when **YOU **checked, you were able to find the exact place where my prior statements about the requirements for a valid confession were verified;. the statements I made from **remembering **my second grade catechism; the statements that you told me I should check because they were in error…

I wonder why you couldn’t find that list, almost my exact words, before you attempted to correct me? But in any case, nice job on finding the list.

Those statements from our second grade catechism show that absolution occurs on its own **prior to **completion of the penance. Forgiveness is not contingent upon completion of the penance, at least not according to these statements we both memorized.

 

[paperwight66]

Those statements from our second grade catechism show that absolution occurs on its own **prior to **completion of the penance. Forgiveness is not contingent upon completion of the penance, at least not according to these statements we both memorized.

Indeed, how can it be, when one considers penances described by other posters - reading a certain book, for instance, or performing acts of kindness to three other people. In other words, penances which can’t be performed there and then after confession in the church in a matter of minutes.
Suppose such a person had confessed mortal sin, then had been knocked down and killed on the road outside before they had a chance to complete the penance - would they be at risk of going to hell because the absolution the priest had pronounced didn’t apply yet ?

 

[jayk15]

Might I also add that penance doesn’t end with what the priest told you to do. That simple prayer a priest will give is not nearly enough to remedy the damage caused by the sin. That is why all life long a person must live a life of penance/self sacrifice and make use of the indulgences the Church offers. By saying that we are not forgiven until we have completed our penance implies that we will never be forgiven in life because often people die not perfectly pure and blameless and must therefore complete there penance in Purgatory. That is why forgiveness comes before Penance. I must also stress the importance of indulgences. Plenary Indulgences repair all the damage caused by sin through the merits that Christ obtained which is dispensed through the indulgences the Church offer(Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven)

 

[Aramis]

Actually, paragraph 78 says the following:

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

A search of “penance must be completed” in the Catechism reveals no hits.

A lot of older americans mistake the Baltimore Catechism for being the Church’s catechism; it isn’t. The Baltimore Catechism was a national one commissioned by the 3rd Plenary Council of Baltimore, and approved by Baltimore’s Archbishop James Gibbons, and not by Rome. It has a peculiarly limited view, and is valid only within the Roman context, not the Church’s full diversity. It makes no provisions for the Eastern Churches, either.

The Church’s universal Catechism wasn’t published until the reign of Pope John Paul II… When a local document disagrees, the local is in error.

But even the BC (Vol 2) notes that imperfect contrition is valid…

1. Q. What is perfect contrition?
   A. Perfect contrition is that which fills us with sorrow and hatred for
   sin, because it offends God, who is infinitely good in Himself and
   worthy of all love.
2. Q. What is imperfect contrition?
   A. Imperfect contrition is that by which we hate what offends God,
   because by it we lose heaven and deserve hell; or because sin is so
   hateful in itself.
3. Q. Is imperfect contrition sufficient for a worthy confession?
   A. Imperfect contrition is sufficient for a worthy confession, but we
   should endeavor to have perfect contrition.
4. Q. Does not the Sacrament of Penance remit all punishment due to
   sin?
   A. The Sacrament of Penance remits the eternal punishment due to sin,
   but it does not always remit the temporal punishment which God requires
   as satisfaction for our sins.
5. Q. Why does God require a temporal punishment as a satisfaction for
   sin?
   A. God requires a temporal punishment as a satisfaction for sin, to
   teach us the great evil of sin and to prevent us from falling again.

Out of sequence, but also of import:

1. Q. What must we do to receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily?
   A. To receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily we must do five things:
2. We must examine our conscience.
3. We must have sorrow for our sins.
4. We must make a firm resolution never more to offend God.
5. We must confess our sins to the priest.
6. We must accept the penance which the priest gives us.

 

[SaintGobban]

This is taken from the 14th session of the Council of Trent, Chapter III

"But the acts of the penitent himself, namely, contrition,15 confession and satisfaction, constitute the matter of this sacrament, which acts, inasmuch as they are by God’s institution required in the penitent for the integrity of the sacrament and for the full and complete remission of sins, are for this reason called the parts of penance."

Satisfaction means penance.

Every Sacrament requires matter and form.

For the Sacrament of Penance, the matter is the contrition, confession of sins, and performance of the penance by the penitant. The form is the absolution of the priest.
Both must be present in order for the Sacrament to be imparted.

If the penance is not perfomed, the Sacrament is not imparted. If the Sacrament is not imparted, you are not forgiven.

Back in the days of public penances, absolution was not given until after the public penance had been performed. Sometimes these penances lasted years, and you could not receive the Eucharist, or any other Sacrament during that time. After your penance was completed, you were given absolution. The penances have changed and become much more lenient, but the necessity for their completion in order to obtain forgiveness never has. Asolution is contigient upon the right attitude and right behavior of the penitant. If the penittant does not perform his penance, part of the “matter” of the Sacrament is missing (see above). This means that the Sacriment was never really imparted. The absolution is contingent upon the behavior and attitude of the penitent.

There are two more things that you might not be aware of regarding the Sacrament of Penance.

First, you are allowed to discuss your penance with the priest during Confession.
If, for some reason, you do not feel that you are able to complete the penance you are given, if you think it is too vague, or inappropriate in some way, or that the penance can not be completed, the penitent is allowed to ask the priest for a different penance. I have had this experience. I have asked priests for different penances. And, the priest was happy to accommodate.

Second, when a person is at the point of death and there is no priest available, all that is necessary is for the dying person to be truly sorry for their sins, with a firm intention of amendment. Under those circumstances, all their sins are forgiven, and they will not be consigned to hell. This is a good reason to always say an “Act of Contrition” before you go to sleep at night, or when in danger.

This would apply to the question about dying before you have a chance to complete you penance. Obviously, if you have made a good confession: one expressing true sorrow for your sins, and the intention to amend your life, but you have not had a chance to complete your penance at the time of death, your sins would be forgiven, as would anyone’s sins be forgiven who had the same attitude.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

What about if the priest doesn’t even give you a penance?

I’ve been to confession twice now when the priest just gave the absolution without a penance! I went out and said my prayers and all, but I felt a little lost without a task to do specifically. Is this still a valid confession? Should I ask him for a penance or does that matter these days?? I don’t think I should make up my own penance either, it’s kind of above my pay grade (so to speak).

 

[SaintGobban]

What about if the priest doesn’t even give you a penance?

I’ve been to confession twice now when the priest just gave the absolution without a penance! I went out and said my prayers and all, but I felt a little lost without a task to do specifically. Is this still a valid confession? Should I ask him for a penance or does that matter these days?? I don’t think I should make up my own penance either, it’s kind of above my pay grade (so to speak).

We were told to remind the priest to give us a penance if he forgets, and sometimes they do.

If you both forget, then I would consider the act of confessing to be the penance, although that is just my opinion.

I would probably mention it to the priest the next time I went to Confession and see what he says.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

We were told to remind the priest to give us a penance if he forgets, and sometimes they do.

If you both forget, then I would consider the act of confessing to be the penance, although that is just my opinion.

I would probably mention it to the priest the next time I went to Confession and see what he says.

I didn’t necessarily forget, I was just surprised and nervous to say anything to him, I figured he didn’t want to give penances for some reason. Maybe he did just forget.

I will have to add it to my notes and mention it first so I don’t get all hasty at the end and neglect to mention it! I guess I have a little scrupulosity because I want everything the way it has always been done!

 

[Seachange]

From the Catechism:

1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest’s absolution. The penitent’s acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.

Note: not the performance of the penance but the intent to perform the penance. Big difference. If we do not complete our penance, though we had the intention to do so, it does not invalidate our confession or absolution.

If we intentionally do not do our penance, our confession is invalid because we did not complete the requirements.

1459 <…>Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”

Here is the section on Confession from the Catechism.
VI. THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

 

[SaintGobban]

Those statements from our second grade catechism show that absolution occurs on its own **prior to **completion of the penance. Forgiveness is not contingent upon completion of the penance, at least not according to these statements we both memorized.

I don’t know how many times I can repeat the same thing. I guess this will be the last.

All Sacraments require matter and form in order to be imparted. The Sacrament of Penance is no exception.

**The matter in the Sacrament of Penance is the three actions of the penitant:

Contrition
Confession
Performance of Penance

The form in the Sacrament of Penance is the words of the priest:

I absolve you**.

All four of these things are necessary in order to impart the Sacrament.

So, the priest can say, “I absolve you,” and he can mean, “I absolve you,” but that absolution is contingent upon the action of the person confessing doing what they are supposed to do in order to receive the Sacrament.

One of the three things they MUST do is perform their penance.

Now, we were taught to perform you penance as soon as you leave the confessional.

Barring some completely unforseen force, some completely random act of God, that should imply that 99% of all penances would be completed at the time of the confession.
If a person “intends” to complete their penance, they WILL complete their penance.

Now, in the 1-2% of the time when that is not possible, and the person genuinely forgets to perform their penance, I would say they were not really properly disposed to receive the sacrament and they DID NOT receive the sacrament. How do you forget your penance?

I have covered the act of dying before completing the penance. You are forgiven.

So the idea that “intending” and accomplishing are two wildly different ideas, is not really valid, especially in light of the fact that their are other places, including the Coucil of Trent where this is spelled out much more clearly and unequivocally. No penance. No Sacrament.

As I said before, the priest did NOT absolve until penance was completed when there were public penances. That is not practical now that penances have become so lenient. But the spirit of the Sacrament remains unchanged. Penance is necessary for the absolution to be imparted. Penance is necessary for the Sacrament to be imparted.

In parting, everyone who receives the Sacrament of Penance learns about the Sacrament prior to reception. I learned that the performance of the penance was absolutely required in order to have received the Sacrament. My husband learned the exact same thing.

I don’t really know what the background of the people here is, but again, this is an issue that can be resolved by doing research.

I don’t understand why someone would want to dig in to a position that essentially states that performing your penance isn’t really necessary in order to have received the Sacrament.

**Obviously, if you honestly believe that, and you aren’t just here trying to argue with someone, then you can NEVER be properly disposed for the Sacrament by your own admission. If you don’t believe you HAVE to perform the penance in order to be forgiven, then why would you INTEND to perform the penance. It is simply a matter of choice, and you could just as easily choose not to. **

In fact, isn’t that just what you are advocating in this thread. Essentially you are saying to the person inquiring here: “don’t bother doing your penance, it isn’t really necessary, you’re still forgiven.”

I hope this person, although I very seriously doubt if this actually happened, does not believe you. And, although you can not seem to admit that you are wrong here, I hope you don’t really believe and act upon what you are saying, for the sake of your soul.
If you are Catholic that is, and have ever even gone to Confession.

 

[baltobetsy]

I don’t know how many times I can repeat the same thing. I guess this will be the last. Good.

All Sacraments require matter and form in order to be imparted. The Sacrament of Penance is no exception.

**The matter in the Sacrament of Penance is the three actions of the penitant:

Contrition
Confession
Performance of Penance

The form in the Sacrament of Penance is the words of the priest:

I absolve you**.

All four of these things are necessary in order to impart the Sacrament.

So, the priest can say, “I absolve you,” and he can mean, “I absolve you,” but that absolution is contingent upon the action of the person confessing doing what they are supposed to do in order to receive the Sacrament.

One of the three things they MUST do is perform their penance. No, they must be willing to perform the penance. See the quote from the CCC #1491 in the post from Seachange.

Now, we were taught to perform you penance as soon as you leave the confessional.

Barring some completely unforseen force, some completely random act of God, that should imply that 99% of all penances would be completed at the time of the confession.
If a person “intends” to complete their penance, they WILL complete their penance. Fine if you are given a penance of a few prayers. What if you are asked to perform an act of kindness for someone you won’t see until next week or some other act that cannot be completed right there in church?

Now, in the 1-2% of the time when that is not possible, and the person genuinely forgets to perform their penance, I would say they were not really properly disposed to receive the sacrament and they DID NOT receive the sacrament. How do you forget your penance? I guess you’ve never been upset or nervous or focused on something the priest told you during the confession. Others have.

I have covered the act of dying before completing the penance. You are forgiven.

So the idea that “intending” and accomplishing are two wildly different ideas, is not really valid, especially in light of the fact that their are other places, including the Coucil of Trent where this is spelled out much more clearly and unequivocally. No penance. No Sacrament.

As I said before, the priest did NOT absolve until penance was completed when there were public penances. That is not practical now that penances have become so lenient. But the spirit of the Sacrament remains unchanged. Penance is necessary for the absolution to be imparted. Penance is necessary for the Sacrament to be imparted.

In parting, everyone who receives the Sacrament of Penance learns about the Sacrament prior to reception. I learned that the performance of the penance was absolutely required in order to have received the Sacrament. My husband learned the exact same thing.

I don’t really know what the background of the people here is, but again, this is an issue that can be resolved by doing research.

I don’t understand why someone would want to dig in to a position that essentially states that performing your penance isn’t really necessary in order to have received the Sacrament. In order to prevent people from having unnecessary anxiety over reading mistaken notions put forth by intransigent posters such as yourself.

Obviously, if you honestly believe that, and you aren’t just here trying to argue with someone, then you can NEVER be properly disposed for the Sacrament by your own admission. Well, thanks so much for reading my heart with such great insight. If you don’t believe you HAVE to perform the penance in order to be forgiven, then why would you INTEND to perform the penance. It is simply a matter of choice, and you could just as easily choose not to.

In fact, isn’t that just what you are advocating in this thread. No. Essentially you are saying to the person inquiring here: “don’t bother doing your penance, it isn’t really necessary, you’re still forgiven.” The position I am advocating is that one must go into the Sacrament of Penance being willing to perform the penance given, which is the position taken by Holy Mother Church.
I hope this person, although I very seriously doubt if this actually happened, does not believe you. And, although you can not seem to admit that you are wrong here, I hope you don’t really believe and act upon what you are saying, for the sake of your soul. **Look, it is my intention here to encourage every person who reads this thread to remember and perform his penance. It is also my intention to reassure anyone who has forgotten his penance that his sins are forgiven by the absolution and such forgiveness is not contingent upon completing the penance, and that it is only the penitent’s UNWILLINGNESS to perform the penance that will affect his forgiveness.**If you are Catholic that is, and have ever even gone to Confession. That is unnecessarily rude.

Many of the people who read and post here suffer from scrupulosity. Posts such as your own which incorrectly insist upon a more rigorous interpretation of Church law than the Church herself requires are a source of much unnecessary suffering. For a person with a well-formed conscience, a reminder of the importance of things like completing the penance is a good thing; for the scrupulous person it is yet another invitation to despair.