Can a person just trust in Jesus and remain a Catholic?

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rarndt01:
I was formerly a evangelical who was a solely a believer in Jesus Christ and I only prayed and showed my devotion to him alone…
What about our Heavenly Father, what about the Holy Spirit, what about His commandments, etc., etc., etc.!!!

Believing in Jesus alone is a fallicy and has never been enough, even Jesus preached against it.

“PRAY” means ‘to ask’.
“Venerate” means to give respect.
“Adore” means to worship as divine.

You venerate your mother, you venerate your father and you venerate Blessed Mary the mother of Jesus Christ.

You can pray for help from coworkers. You can pray for help from others in your ‘prayer chain’ when sick. You can pray for help from the Holy Spirit. Or you can pray to Blessed Mary to ask her Son to help you too. Blessed Mary would thus be in your prayer chain since she is alive and with God.

You adore God and God alone. You pray to God or you ask others, including Blessed Mary and the Saints, to be in your prayer chain and pray with you and on your behalf TO God and God alone! You don’t ask Blessed Mary to answer your prayers, you ask for Her intervention to get God to answer your prayers.

Hope this helps, protestants define words diferently then Catholics or even those protestants in Engalnd. Words change in meaning between cultures and in time. To understand this is to come closer to the truth when dealling with protestants and Catholics. Study the dictionary and the Holy Scriptures!😉
 
I felt as you do nearly twenty years ago, when I became a Catholic Christian. Don’t worry…It will take some time, maybe, but you will eventually come to understand our devotion to Mary. In the meantime, just relax…Most converts do not become truly Catholic in their beliefs and practices all at once. Conversion is a life long process…Mary will grow on you!
 
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tru_dvotion:
On the contrary Mel. Otherwise, your thinking would be quite different. Plus the generalizations you are making about Marian devotion tell me otherwise. Our outlook is shaped by not only conscious choices; they are also shaped by forces and ideals that make the way into our experience without conscious realization. I have no way of knowing why your mom found little or no values in her prayer life with regard to Mary, but this also has shaped your attitude. How could it not? To some extent we are all products of our environment, especially our formative years leave an imprint, in that we either embrace the values we learned as a child or we reject them. So no, I do not believe one can come to a conclusion as you have regarding Catholic devotion to our Holy Mother without outside influences. And yes, yours are Protestant sentiments and are not Catholic.
You don’t know me or my experiences beyond what I have told you. When I was Catholic my mother taught me the Hail Mary and sheprayed the Rosary along with my grandmother regularly. This I is normal. It was not until I was an adult that my mother expressed her views on Mary to me. In pracitce she was ust like any other good catholic.
Wait a minute; what do you base your analysis on regarding these Catholics? What makes you think they worship rather than venerate? What makes you so sure they are ignorant of many aspects of basic Catholicism/Christianity? The very fact you separated Catholicism from Christianity is a telltale sign you are not terribly well versed in Catholicism yourself. You see Catholicism IS Christianity.
Pay closer attention. I base my analysis on a lifetime of relationships living in the most Catholic area of our country. I think I am pretty well knowledgable of what my siblings, friends and other relatives know about their faith when I have spoken with them about it on numerous occasions for decades. And I never seperated Catholicism and Christianity I put a slash between them to show they are synonymous. Are you just looking for fault now?
Gee, as if it mattered what these evangelicals think? Should we suppress our devotion to our Holy Mother just so these won’t “cringe”? If this drives a Catholic to Protestantism, he was never a Catholic in the first place, and I say to these people, Amen, go on your way.
Great attitude. I am talking about people who left the Chruch. You should care. Jesus does. I never said suppress your devotion. I said some people abuse it. You assume them every Catholic who ever lived has perfect devotion. It must be great to be without sin. :rolleyes: Abuses do make people cringe. And I never said true devotion is abusive. So anyone who does noty have your level of devotion to Mary is not a true Catholic? I am gald you are not the Pope. So I guess my mother is not a true Cahtolic by your standards.
On the contrary Mel, that is exactly what you have just expressed.
No it is not. Read what I wrote. Not your own strawman to satisfy your desire for polemics.
You may love her Mel, but you do not seem to be able to relate to ancient forms of Marian devotion, especially in the cultural context. The outward expressions of Catholic Marian devotion never was and never will be a sign of Mary worship.
I understand it and I do get. I was not talking about Marian devotion as taught by the Catholic church. I am talking about abuses of Marian devotion. The fact that you cannot admit that abuse is possible and does sometimes happen is simple denial. Stop being so defensive and actually engage what I wrote instead of misrepresenting what I wrote. Otherwise feel free to ignore my posts if you cannot engage me honestly.

Blessings,

Mel
 
Scott Waddell:
Yes, abuse can happen, I don’t deny that. I DO deny that your belief that “many of them don’t know the difference or where to draw the line” carries any authority. The only thing you have established is that the more flowery forms of Marian piety creep you out. So what? If you can give me a clear, provable example of abuse and an actual Church teaching that it is violating, I will consider it.

Scott
How do you prove personal experience? Is it really so hard to believe that this happens? I am not at all creeped out by flowery Marian devotion. But when people pray to Mary and ask of her things only God can do that is abuse. When people ask Marian to answer their prayers rather asking for her intercession that is abuse by Catholic standards. I know priests who have recently told me to do this very thing. So to say that this doesn’t happen is silly. I never said it was the norm or that most Catholics do it. But I know plenty that do or have.

How abouta couple of examples. Asking Mary to forgive your sins? Or how about asking Mary to guide you? You cannot tell me you have never heard of any Catholic doing that. As I understand it when one prays to Mary they are either to give her honor or to ask for her intercession. Anything beyond that is ascribing diety to her.

I am not attacking the church for crying out loud. I was just pointing out relatively common abuses I have seen in my lifetime. The fact that my integrity on this is being questioned is really bothersome. Take a look at how many posts I have on this board. If you find one of them that militates against Catholicism then fine, you should suspect my intentions. Otherwise give me a bit of credit.

Mel
 
Our Blessed Mother was more than likely the one who brought you into the Catholic faith…thru the Rosaries many of us Catholics do for the Conversion of sinners…conversion not only only thru an amendment of lifestyle but from other faiths INTO the Catholic one. 🙂

God Bless.
 
Let’s look at your examples:
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Melchior:
When people ask Marian to answer their prayers rather asking for her intercession that is abuse by Catholic standards.
The Memorare:

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to Thy protection, implored Thy help, OR sought Thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto Thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To Thee I come, before Thee I stand sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in Thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

Is this prayer, found in virtually every Catholic prayer book abuse? It mentions intercession yes, but it also distinctly includes help, protection, and being answered.

The Sub Tuum:

We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin.

Scott
 
Mel,

I understand that there are those who show outward signs of devotion, veneration, and piety while at the same time having no inward truth or understanding of the deposit of faith. However, I see this in every religion I’ve ever studied, Catholicism I don’t expect is immune to it either.

Yet, I don’t presume that those who kiss a crucifix, say the sign of the cross, or practice other pious devotions that may or may not be different from my own are necessarily vain and supersticious. I don’t suggest that you inferred such things are always vain and supersticious. I merely mean to suggest that we ought to refrain from judging the piety or vanity of others. I prefer instead to presume good faith.

If one positively expresses a doctrine contrary to the orthodox Catholic faith, that’s a different story, and by all means, we ought to charitably teach them were they differ from Catholic doctrine and practice. However, I’m not real good at reading the hearts and minds of others when they are kissing sacramentals such as the Holy Bible, medals, icons, or other holy relics, or engaged in various Novenas, etc. So whatever devotion they practice, if their actions are not contrary to canon law, I will presume they act in good faith, even if it is a devotion that I personally do not find helpful to my faith journey and spirituality.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Mel,

I understand that there are those who show outward signs of devotion, veneration, and piety while at the same time having no inward truth or understanding of the deposit of faith. However, I see this in every religion I’ve ever studied, Catholicism I don’t expect is immune to it either.

Yet, I don’t presume that those who kiss a crucifix, say the sign of the cross, or practice other pious devotions that may or may not be different from my own are necessarily vain and supersticious. I don’t suggest that you inferred such things are always vain and supersticious. I merely mean to suggest that we ought to refrain from judging the piety or vanity of others. I prefer instead to presume good faith.

If one positively expresses a doctrine contrary to the orthodox Catholic faith, that’s a different story, and by all means, we ought to charitably teach them were they differ from Catholic doctrine and practice. However, I’m not real good at reading the hearts and minds of others when they are kissing sacramentals such as the Holy Bible, medals, icons, or other holy relics, or engaged in various Novenas, etc. So whatever devotion they practice, if their actions are not contrary to canon law, I will presume they act in good faith, even if it is a devotion that I personally do not find helpful to my faith journey and spirituality.
Thanks, Dave.

I can’t disagree with anything you wrote. 👍

Mel
 
Mel, first of all, I did not respond from the premise of True Devotion to Mary. It is most certainly not for everybody. Also, I am not without sin. I am a miserable sinner, probably much more so than anyone else on this forum, because I have not lived up to the expectations of what I should be when I look at the grace God has given me. I am an utter failure, I don’t deny that. So please do not assume that a saint or somebody who perceives herself to be a saint was writing to you. This truly freaks me out because I must not come across as I intend, either because of language (English is my second) or because I am still fighting an ego that needs to be put in check. I wrote to you from the premise of general Marian devotion, one that you observed displayed by the elderly, Portuguese ladies. I am not Portuguese myself, but I can totally relate to that kind of Marian devotion, because I know many such people intimately and I can safely say you are all wrong about them.

But I am not looking for an argument with you, we could rip apart each other’s words for eons, yes my old ego must still be intact, and I would not find it difficult to refute whatever your response may be. I will back off now, because I do not wish this thread to become uncharitable. Suffice to say, nothing you have responded changed my original conclusion and I will leave it at that. God bless you Mel, and may our Holy Mother reveal herself to you as she is, your true mother by the grace of God.
 
rarndt01,
Can’t I just be devoted to Jesus alone and not Mary and still remain Cathoic?
Depends upon what you mean. Devotion to Jesus includes a devotion to the entire body of Christ, not just the head, the neck, the hand, etc. In fact, you may even be the big toe. 😉

Catholics have come to the “city of the living God.” That city is well populated by those who are truly and more perfectly alive in Christ, and they are in complete unity with one another.

I understand that Protestantism emphasizes that we ought to go to God alone, however Sacred Scripture tells us that as Christians we have come to the city of God, to the Blessed Trinity, AND to the heavenly angels, AND to the heavenly saints and even to one another who are still battling sin on this earth. A failure to understand this is incorrect theology.

As a Catholic, “you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND countless angels in festal gathering, AND the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, AND God the judge of all, AND the spirits of the just made perfect, AND*** Jesus***, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.” (Hebrews 12:22-24)

To force your approach to be to “Jesus alone” is to adhere to a false trichotomy, which does not take into consideration what Scripture and Tradition authentically reveal to us. I suggest instead that you attempt to rid yourself of the false trichotomy of God OR saints OR angels, as this is in no way what the apostles handed on as the true deposit of faith.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Mel, first of all, I did not respond from the premise of True Devotion to Mary. It is most certainly not for everybody. Also, I am not without sin. I am a miserable sinner, probably much more so than anyone else on this forum, because I have not lived up to the expectations of what I should be when I look at the grace God has given me. I am an utter failure, I don’t deny that. So please do not assume that a saint or somebody who perceives herself to be a saint was writing to you. This truly freaks me out because I must not come across as I intend, either because of language (English is my second) or because I am still fighting an ego that needs to be put in check. I wrote to you from the premise of general Marian devotion, one that you observed displayed by the elderly, Portuguese ladies. I am not Portuguese myself, but I can totally relate to that kind of Marian devotion, because I know many such people intimately and I can safely say you are all wrong about them.

But I am not looking for an argument with you, we could rip apart each other’s words for eons, yes my old ego must still be intact, and I would not find it difficult to refute whatever your response may be. I will back off now, because I do not wish this thread to become uncharitable. Suffice to say, nothing you have responded changed my original conclusion and I will leave it at that. God bless you Mel, and may our Holy Mother reveal herself to you as she is, your true mother by the grace of God.
God bless you, TD. I am sorry for being so defensive in my last post to you. We will have to agree to disagree. But that does not justify my responding to you before I have had my morning coffee 😉 . I do think you missed some of what I was saying. But I am sure that is due to my poor writing skills.

Every Blessing,

Mel
 
Hey! I want in on some of these warm fuzzies! 😃

I realize that we are getting somewhat off topic with a discussion about what constitues devotional abuse. So I will simply agree that it is possible to abuse devotions not just to Mary, but any saint. One simply needs to keep in mind the distinction between the creator and the created.

Bless all here!

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
Hey! I want in on some of these warm fuzzies! 😃

I realize that we are getting somewhat off topic with a discussion about what constitues devotional abuse. So I will simply agree that it is possible to abuse devotions not just to Mary, but any saint. One simply needs to keep in mind the distinction between the creator and the created.

Bless all here!

Scott
Big e-hug for Scott! 😃

I am sorry for be snappy. I am imposing a personal ban on posting before my first sip of coffee.

I like your distinction and think it’s a great approach.

Blessings brother,

Mel
 
Hi,
I am not a catholic and so I have a lot of trouble understanding how you came to worship Mary. I have read the posts here and there is a deal of disagreement. Some say it is only devotion and one person said devotion is worship. The prayers quoted showed prayers directly asking Mary to answer.
I have to go to scripture. At the wedding what did Mary say to the servants, " Do as He says". What did Jesus say. " Pray to God, Our Father in heaven. Send the children to me. Does He say send the children to Mary because she is a mother. No. Furthermore, Jesus says He is lowly and humble and gentle and He wants us to go to Him. He does not say , Go to Mary who will intercede for you. Christ died for us and He is the intercessor, not Mary. It is Christ’s blood. It is Christ who has the yoke which fits perfectly.
Where does Christ put Mary in the chain.
Of John the Baptist He says, No man born of women is greater than him.
Then Roman Catholics say that Peter is the Rock and the first pope. Do you pray to the pope as you do to Mary. I dont know , I am asking as I am searching for the truth.
When Mary and Jesus’s brothers are outside and asking for Him does Jesus venerate Mary. Yes because she believes in her son but no further and places her with you and I as brothers and sisters and mothers.
I can not see where you find support in the Holy Bible for the position you have given to Mary.
Christ be with you
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
I can not see where you find support in the Holy Bible for the position you have given to Mary.
It’s everywhere in Scripture. For instance, can we start by agreeing(along with Luther, Calvin and many other Reformers) that Mary is Mother of God as is supported by Luke 1:35, 43?

Scott
 
Actually, maybe we should scratch that as it is off topic. Would you care to start a new thread on biblical support for Marian theology? Let me know what you title it. 👍

Scott
 
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rarndt01:
I was formerly a evangelical who was a solely a believer in Jesus Christ and I only prayed and showed my devotion to him alone. I find my new Catholic religion very hard to adjust to, because a great deal of devotion is given to Mary as well as Jesus. Even the Rosary is divided between recital prayers to Our Father and Hail Mary. Can’t I just be devoted to Jesus alone and not Mary and still remain Cathoic? Has anyone who has recently converted form an evangelical background experienced these same feelings?
A friend of mine often says, “You can make an overnight Christian, but you can’t make an overnight Catholic.” Don’t worry about it. If you stay close to Christ in the Eucharist and Confession, you will without fail eventually be brought into a right relationship with His Mother.
 
Hi,

I too am struggling with the devotion to Mary. I have recently decided to study Catholicism, and find that the worship is so full, and it beckons to me. However, I do not understand, in spite of trying, the Marian devotion. I do believe that she deserves much more recognition than Protestants give her, but I don’t see the need to elevate her to the status that she holds. I am having trouble accepting her free from original sin status, her assumption and her perpetual virginity. I feel that my love and devotion to the God, my acceptance and love of Jesus, and my communion with the Holy Spirit is where my attention should be focused. I am still asking for help and trying to find something to read that confirms why she is where she is. I still have not attended Mass. I feel dishonest because I do not embrace this long held Catholic devotion to Mary. So, I’m still out here studying and asking questions.

Take care,
Sherilo
 
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