Can a person just trust in Jesus and remain a Catholic?

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sherilo:
Hi,

I too am struggling with the devotion to Mary. I have recently decided to study Catholicism, and find that the worship is so full, and it beckons to me. However, I do not understand, in spite of trying, the Marian devotion. I do believe that she deserves much more recognition than Protestants give her, but I don’t see the need to elevate her to the status that she holds. I am having trouble accepting her free from original sin status, her assumption and her perpetual virginity. I feel that my love and devotion to the God, my acceptance and love of Jesus, and my communion with the Holy Spirit is where my attention should be focused. I am still asking for help and trying to find something to read that confirms why she is where she is. I still have not attended Mass. I feel dishonest because I do not embrace this long held Catholic devotion to Mary. So, I’m still out here studying and asking questions.

Take care,
Sherilo
Mary, Ark of the Covenant, by Dr. Scott Hahn

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/ma.html

Mary, Holy Mother, by Dr. Scott Hahn

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/m.html
 
One of the images that helped me into a clearer understanding of Mary’s place in redemption history is the traditional Orthodox association of Mary with the burning bush deriving (I think) from Gregory of Nyssa who connected Moses and the burning bush with Mary. As the bush was aflame but not consumed, so like the burning bush, Mary held God inside her body and was not consumed.

I think this is something even a Protestant can relate to. Makes my hair stand on end just to think of it.

:bigyikes: I just thought: When does the Holy Spirit come in tongues of fire? When "Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James . . . with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus . . . . (Acts 1)
 
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tru_dvotion:
CD4,

Mary will GROW on you?

We are not done yet.😉
**You know what I mean…🙂 .Sometimes it takes time to allow a practice or belief to become a part of one’s own spirituality…It (the spirituality) has to grow on you…:yup:
**
 
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rarndt01:
Can’t I just be devoted to Jesus alone and not Mary and still remain Cathoic? Has anyone who has recently converted form an evangelical background experienced these same feelings?
I am not a recent convert, but it seems like deep Marian devotion will never be natural to me. My parish still lets me come anyway.🙂

You don’t have to pray the rosary or other particular Marian prayers in your devotional life to be a Catholic. Look at the other devotions, perhaps, like the divine office, holy hours before the blessed sacrament, etc.

Are you uncomfortable with the few references to Mary during mass?
 
The wedding at Cana is many wonderful things

First…by Jesus presence…he raises marriage to a Sacrament

Second… Its his first public miracle…Changing Water into Wine…

Third… Yes…Mary is telling us to do as he says…but it also demonstrates that what the Mother asks of the Son, he does not refuse…and his FIRST (public) miracle is done SOLEY (BECAUSE of Mary’s request) 😉
 
CD4 said:
**You know what I mean…🙂 .Sometimes it takes time to allow a practice or belief to become a part of one’s own spirituality…It (the spirituality) has to grow on you…:yup: **


You are right.:o I should not be so testy and take everything as slight against me Mum.
 
Hi edwinG. I need to get to bed, so I can’t post much right now…but at Cana, did not Jesus tell Mary that it was not yet His time? Then why did he perform the miracle? Because His mother asked him to! Mary was chosen to bear and raise God in the flesh…the creator of the universe! What a blessing! “All generations will call me blessed” she said. Elizabeth exclaimed, “Who am I that the mother of my Lord would visit me?”. Scroll up and read my original two posts in this thread…I’ll try to post more later this week.
 
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rarndt01:
I was formerly a evangelical who was a solely a believer in Jesus Christ and I only prayed and showed my devotion to him alone. I find my new Catholic religion very hard to adjust to, because a great deal of devotion is given to Mary as well as Jesus. Even the Rosary is divided between recital prayers to Our Father and Hail Mary. Can’t I just be devoted to Jesus alone and not Mary and still remain Cathoic? Has anyone who has recently converted form an evangelical background experienced these same feelings?
What does Jesus say about what we should be most completely devoted to?

Jesus said we should first and foremost be devoted to seeking God’s Kingdom, God’s way of kingship over us. In truth, Jesus never even says we should be primarily devoted to Jesus.
Consider his response to the “rich young man” who comes running up to Jesus and is rebuked for thinking more of Jesus than of God the Almighty.

The purpose of any and all devotions is to lead us closer to God’s kingdom. I find very frequent prayers to Jesus to be very helpful in that quest. Sometimes , not really that often but sometimes, I find consolation and strength in asking for Mary’s intercession. I know there are some who find it helpful to seek Mary’s intercession much more frequently.

Whatever devotion a person has, if it brings them closer to God’s kingdom., then they are as Catholic as the Pope or any of the Saints.

-Jim

Somewhat on the side, has anyone seen the Grotto of the Redemption in West Bend, Iowa? I say it this summer. That is a remarkable monument to one man’s devotion to Mary and to his Catholic faith.
 
trogiah: As Christians, our entire focus is Christ! There is no such thing as having too much of a devotion to Christ. He is our God! Christ didn’t rebuke the rich young man for call Him good, he was challenging him. He said, “Why do you call me good? God alone is good.” Jesus is God! and that is what he was implying. Why do you call me good, if you think I’m just a teacher, he was saying…I believe. The rich man did not realize that Christ was God, he did not have a devotion to Christ at all! (Remember he walked away sad…Christ was NOT rebuking Him for being too focused on Himself, which is impossible). To be devoted to Christ is the exact same thing as being devoted to the Kingdom, for Christ IS the Kingdom…we are the body, and He is the head. The Father and Christ may be two distinct persons, but they are one divine being, so to know and serve Christ is to know and serve Jesus. All of Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation is focussed on Christ. First, we have the OT pointing the way to the coming of Christ, and then the NT is all about Christ and our relationship to Him. We are to clothe ourself with Christ (Rom. 13:14).

The Church teaches us to be completely devoted to Christ with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. Marian devotion’s ultimate purpose is to strengthen our all-encompassing devotion to Christ.

Remember when Peter walked on the water? When he looked down, he began to sink…but as long as he kept his eyes focused on Jesus, he would remain above water. This is what we are called to do. Keep our eyes on Jesus, every waking minute of our lives.

As St. Paul tells us in Phil. 2:7-12, that to confess as Jesus as Lord is to the glory of the Father. To worship Christ, is to worship the Father.

If we focus on Christ with all of our heart, we can be sure that we will be furthering the Kingdom of God.
 
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twf:
trogiah: As Christians, our entire focus is Christ! There is no such thing as having too much of a devotion to Christ. He is our God! Christ didn’t rebuke the rich young man for call Him good, he was challenging him. He said, “Why do you call me good? God alone is good.” Jesus is God! and that is what he was implying. Why do you call me good, if you think I’m just a teacher, he was saying…I believe. The rich man did not realize that Christ was God, he did not have a devotion to Christ at all! (Remember he walked away sad…Christ was NOT rebuking Him for being too focused on Himself, which is impossible). To be devoted to Christ is the exact same thing as being devoted to the Kingdom, for Christ IS the Kingdom…we are the body, and He is the head. The Father and Christ may be two distinct persons, but they are one divine being, so to know and serve Christ is to know and serve Jesus. All of Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation is focussed on Christ. First, we have the OT pointing the way to the coming of Christ, and then the NT is all about Christ and our relationship to Him. We are to clothe ourself with Christ (Rom. 13:14).

The Church teaches us to be completely devoted to Christ with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. Marian devotion’s ultimate purpose is to strengthen our all-encompassing devotion to Christ.

Remember when Peter walked on the water? When he looked down, he began to sink…but as long as he kept his eyes focused on Jesus, he would remain above water. This is what we are called to do. Keep our eyes on Jesus, every waking minute of our lives.

As St. Paul tells us in Phil. 2:7-12, that to confess as Jesus as Lord is to the glory of the Father. To worship Christ, is to worship the Father.

If we focus on Christ with all of our heart, we can be sure that we will be furthering the Kingdom of God.
While not disagreeing with anything you said, I still think it is worth clarifying what we mean by being “devoted to Christ”

Consider the story of Mary and Martha. Martha was busy with “the details of hospitality” as might seem appropriate for someone who was devoted to Christ. Wouldn’t it be appropriate to welcome a person you were devoted to? Jesus didn’t condemn her by any means but pointed out that the one who simply sat at his feet and listened was receiving the better portion.

Elsewhere Jesus makes clear that it is not enough to eat and drink with him, (again, those would seem to be at least part of the actions of someone devoted to Jesus) but that a person must do the will of the Father in order to have a share of the kingdom.

As I consider the thought of “having too much devotion to Christ” I think- you are right, we can’t have too much devotion to Christ. But perhaps we can focus on a single manifestation of Christ to the point where we do fall short of the fullness of life. A person can become so devoted to the Eucharist that they forget to give a decent respect to other parishoners. A person can be so dedicated to serving “the poor” that they neglect their own children.

Not only our eyes but our ears and our minds should be tuned in to Jesus

Peace

-Jim
 
Thank you all for your replies to my beginning post.

First off, I’m certainly not uncomfortable with the things said to Mary during mass throughout the year.The only thing that affects me, is when I see on TV or in real life where MORE devotion given to Mary, than to her son, our Lord and Savior Jesus. This concerns me greatly.
Code:
                      The saints are a FAMILY. With the Trinity of the Godhead, Mother Mary, Joseph, the angels, the apostles and all the saints in heaven and earth. All are praying and pulling for one another. But when devotion is given MORE to our blessed Mother than to Jesus, this concerns me. I still wonder why one must recite the Hail Mary 50 times instead of only once or twice? Is Mary hard of hearing? I believe all the prayers in the Rosary should only be said once or else we our guilty of repetitous prayers as the heathen.

                         When I pray, I pray to Jesus and Mother Mary. But I just TALK to them as I am talking to you. I don't need to keep repeating what I just said 5 minutes ago to them. Once is enough.

                         So being a Catholic,  I worship the Triune God alone, but acknowlege Mary as my mother and I acknowlege the rest of the saints who are in heaven praying for me. Does that make sense to you? I feel comfortable with this. God Bless.

                                        Ron from Ohio
 
posted by rarndt01
So being a Catholic, I worship the Triune God alone, but acknowlege Mary as my mother and I acknowlege the rest of the saints who are in heaven praying for me. Does that make sense to you? I feel comfortable with this. God Bless.
That makes complete sense and is a good place to be.
I still wonder why one must recite the Hail Mary 50 times instead of only once or twice? Is Mary hard of hearing? I believe all the prayers in the Rosary should only be said once or else we our guilty of repetitous prayers as the heathen.
When I pray, I pray to Jesus and Mother Mary. But I just TALK to them as I am talking to you. I don’t need to keep repeating what I just said 5 minutes ago to them. Once is enough.
While you certainly do not have to repeat what you just said, to think that God only *wants to *hear it once is not Biblical.

Rev 4:8 …repeat day and night, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord…”

These are the same words repeated over and over and over. God’s command about vain and repititious prayer could be applied here just from the repetitive nature. But clearly it does not apply. Why? Because it is not vain. *Prayers in vain are to non-existant Gods. Prayers of the pagans. *

Also Jesus repeats the same prayer 3 times in Mt 26:44. If simply *repeating *a prayer made it vain and repetitous, why would Jesus have done it? What makes it vain and repetitious is the heart and intentions that is doing the praying.

As for the Rosary, while you are repeating the prayer, it is so you can spend a chunk of time meditating on Christ’s life. I personally have a hard time focusing my thoughts on Christ’s life in the same intense manner as I am able to acheive though the repetitive (but never vain!) prayers of the Rosary. If you can get into good Contemplative or Meditative prayer without it, wonderful. But for those of us a little less disciplined (or those who just love the Rosary) the Rosary and its prayers are a wonderful tool to bring us closer to Christ.

But, once again, worship of God comes in all different ways from many different people. You are on the right track for your personal prayer life. But don’t close the door on repetitious prayer confusing it with vain and repetitious. Repeating the same words in a prayer is Biblical. Jesus did it. He should always be our example.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
 
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Melchior:
I wish I took pictures at the feast of the Lady of Fatima at the Cathollic church in my neighborhood last week. Some of the nice old Portuguese ladies looked like they were worshipping a statue to the casual observer. This is what makes non-cathollics and many practicing catholics cringe. Mel
This is a cultural misunderstanding as much as anything else. Catholics from the Mediterranean countries have a different attitude about many outward religious expressions, particularly with the tangible things like statues & relics. We American Catholics have been affected just enough by our Anglo-Saxon Protestant surroundings to see this as a strange practice. For us, God, the Blessed Mother, & the saints seem to be distant from us and therefore it is a struggle for us to form a personal attachment to them, while the Mediterraneans have been accustomed from birth to foster a close and very personal relationship to the divine.

I have a lot of personal experience in this area because I’m only the second generation of my family born in this country and I still have many relatives in Italy, where you would find many people doing exactly the same thing as the little old Portuguese ladies. As one of my Italian friends reminded me, the Meditteranean culture is very sensory, especially so with the sense of touch. They are famous for being physically demonstrative of their affections in all aspects, and naturally this extends to their faith. Touching a statue or kissing a crucifix is to their minds the same as showing the same kind of affection to the divine person they represent. They know the difference between veneration and worship, and believe me, if you told them that they were actually worshipping that statue, they would call you crazy.

My friend had a very good way of explaining it: you have pictures of your mother, spouse, or whoever you love to remind you of them when you’re not physically together. If you truly understand what motivates it, you realize that the Mediterranean religious expression is quite touching in a simple, almost childlike sense. To illustrate her point, she noted that the real reason why Michelangelo’s *Pieta` *was put behind a barrier was that so many people were venerating it by touching or kissing Christ’s foot that there was concern that it would eventually damage the statue. She went on to emphasize the fact that this never happened with the David, which can be touched quite easily, because no one feels the same kind of love or reverence for what it represents.

Just for the record, the American that I am still finds the “saints under glass” in Europe to be pretty creepy. I still have a lot to learn myself…:o
 
I believe all the prayers in the Rosary should only be said once or else we our guilty of repetitous prayers as the heathen.
That’s fine if you don’t feel comfortable repeating words in your prayers, however, to liken others who do so to the heathens is rather absurd. How many times must we say “I love you” to our loved ones? Isn’t once enough? Perhaps. But repeating it is surely commendable, no? Does repeating “I love you” to your loved one’s suggest they are hard of hearing, or does it suggest that you enjoy expressing yourself to your loved ones as often as possible in a way pleasing to them, even if not needed? Our prayers are our way of saying “I love you” to God and all those in communion with him in heaven. Repeat them often. They are never vain if you have faith.

Scripture does not condemn repetitious prayers, in fact just the opposite, it encourages it. What Scripture condemns is VAIN repetition. Vanity cannot be due to repetition, as Christ himself repeated his prayer at Gethsemane. Vain prayers seem to be more due to a lack of faith and trust in the Blessed Trinity.
 
I can understand if you are still uncomfortable about repetitive prayer at this point, but realize that it is very much Biblical. Christ commanded against vein repetitive prayer, like that given the pagan gods. As others have mentioned, He himself prayed the same prayer three times in a row. (See Luke 22 Was the Father hard of hearing? Did he not understand His own Son? Of course not!) I think you should think about what you said. Jesus, encourages us to bring the same prayer before the Father again and again. (See Luke 18:1-8, the Parable of the Persistent Widow).

Dave Armstrong, the “Catholic Answer Bible”, in the insert “Are There Prayers in the Bible That are Repetitive Like the Rosary and Litanies?” wrote:

“Jesus was condemning vain repetition, not all forms of repetition. The Greek word battalogeo here means “to repeat idly,” or “meaningless and mechanically-repeated phrases,” as in the pagan (not Jewish) modes of prayer. So the Lord is condemning prayers uttered without the proper reverence or respect for God. As usual, He is concerned with the inner disposition of the worshipper…”

In Psalm 136, he goes on to say, which is an inspired prayer, the same phrase is repeated in 26 verses (God’s love endures forever).

By praying the Hail Mary again and again, we are called to meditate on the mysteries of the Gospel, and the lives of our Lord and of our Lady, one for each decade, as well we are spending time to honour our Mother. When I pray a Hail Mary, even if I pray this prayer a few dozens times a day, I can mean it each and every time. The more time we spend praying, as long as it is done out of sincere faith, the closer we grow to Christ, and in this case, to Christ through His Mother. We are humbling coming before the throne of the Queen Mother, like the Israelites did to their Queen Mothers, bringing our requests before her.

Think of it this way as well. God knows what we intend to pray even before we pray it, as our Lord also says. Why then do we pray? So that God knows what we want? No, of course not. Prayer brings us closer to God. It is a form of worship. Repetition can be very beneficial in this way, as we are spending more time with God, as the Spirit draws us through our prayers closer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Jesus is God, yet he prayed to the Father, the same prayer three times we are told. This should be an example to us.

Think also of the Psalms. They are prayers. Is there not repetition in the Psalms? Yes! Think, as another has mentioned, of the praise of the living creatures “Holy, Holy, Holy”.We are told to pray unceasingly by the Apostle, must it be something different every time?

It may seem foreign at first, but I am confident, that if you humbly seek to understand Marian devotion, you too will come to love our Lady of the Rosary, as I have. I am a former Evangelical myself. Less than a year a go, I would not have dared uttered a prayer to our Lady. Today I probably pray dozens of Hail Mary’s a day, throughout the day. (Though I still have a long ways to go in approaching holiness, and I pray the actual full Rosary, I admit, less than I probably should).

As for those who are giving more devotion to Mary than to our Lord, I do not doubt that this has and does sometimes happen. But ask yourself this, how do you know that in his or her heart, this person is honouring our Lady above our Lord? We do not honour our Lady in and of herself, but we honour her because of the Lord! To honour our Lady is to give glory to Christ. Martin Luther, often considered the ‘founder’ of the Protestant Reformation, said in one of his sermons that we can never honour the Blessed Virgin enough…too bad Lutherans have lost this holy devotion over the centuries.

God bless,
In Christ, through the intercession of Mary,
Tyler
 
It is only logical that you can trust Jesus and remain Catholic; however you are missing the point when you leave out his mother , the saints and the community as a whole.
The congregation is the body of Christ with Mary as its Mediatrix and constant intersessor to Jesus. Jesus said if you deny my mother you deny me. Wasn’t it Rachel who cried a thousand tears for her children who were no more. Think of what Mary went through just to bring Jesus into this world she endured the label of an unwed mother even though she was betrothed to Joseph. She could have been stoned and put to death for saying yes. but she did say yes and she stood beside her son and his people all the way to calvary and then some. No one is asking you to put Mary on a pedestal Jesus is asking you to understand the dignity of a woman who had to make real hard life choices and endure sufffering so foreign to us that maybe we should honor her and revere her. Its not so much about honoring her and the saints as it is about honoring and respecting one another. We can learn this through contemplation of the Blessed Mothers life and her sufferings as well as through some of the saints sacrifices and sufferings. Jesus wants all of us at the banquet so why not get acquainted with the rest of the gang!😉
 
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tru_dvotion:
Gee, as if it mattered what these evangelicals think? Should we suppress our devotion to our Holy Mother just so these won’t “cringe”? If this drives a Catholic to Protestantism, he was never a Catholic in the first place, and I say to these people, Amen, go on your way.

Did Paul say, (paraphrased of course) if it offends your brother, it’s better not to do it in their presence?
 
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SherryLynn9:
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tru_dvotion:
Gee, as if it mattered what these evangelicals think? Should we suppress our devotion to our Holy Mother just so these won’t “cringe”? If this drives a Catholic to Protestantism, he was never a Catholic in the first place, and I say to these people, Amen, go on your way.
Did Paul say, (paraphrased of course) if it offends your brother, it’s better not to do it in their presence?
Dear SherryLynn9,

He did say something very much like that.
1 Cor 23-33:
“Everything is lawful,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is lawful,” but not everything builds up. No one should seek his own advantage, but that of his neighbor. Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience, for “the earth and its fullness are the Lord’s.”

If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience. But if someone says to you, “This was offered in sacrifice,” do not eat it on account of the one who called attention to it and on account of conscience; I mean not your own conscience, but the other’s. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else’s conscience? If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled for that over which I give thanks? So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved.
It seems many think the right way to act among non-Catholics is to “act Catholic” as much as possible, to prove they are not ashamed of their faith, hoping it will rub off on others, hoping it will attract attention and invite a discussion of faith, because they are oblivious and unconcerned with how they appear to others, from an honest, childlike and genuinely uncontrollable zeal for their faith, or maybe even because they wish to put up a barrier around themselves to keep out those that don’t worship like us.

From Paul’s teaching, I would think such behavior is “legal,” if not done intentionally to be condescending or judgmental, or to put on a self-aggrandizing show of piety for public viewing. Also from his teaching and from his example, I would think he would not consider such behavior good strategy to win souls for God, in part because they could easily be perceived this way.

Some time back there was a thread about saying grace before meals when at a restaurant. Some liked to do it loudly with full-motion sign of the cross, so that others may see and know that they are proud to be Catholic. Often I do it in nearly complete stealth when I’m by myself, but that’s hard to explain to my children, so when they are with me we do the sign of the cross and say grace in a slightly subdued way. That way if we are seen praying in public, we hopefully look like we are keeping to our own faith without trying to rub it in everybody else’s face. I believe that way we are respecting our own religion and others at the same time. We have had other diners approach us after they ate, and tell us how well-behaved our children are and asked what church we go to.

Alan
 
I too am a convert from Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism and was raised to see devotion to the Saints as idolatry. When I was having trouble praying to the Saints the priest whom I see for spiritual direction encouraged me to remember that praying to the Saints, particularly Mary, isn’t a matter of accepting an idea but meeting a person. He also encouraged me to not find fault in my difficulties but to just accept them for what they were: temporary difficulties. He suggested I pray something along the lines of, “God, if praying to Saints is wrong, please forgive me. However, Mary, I want to know you and your role in God’s plan for mankind. Please pray that I may know and trust you and the other Saints.”

It wasn’t long before I felt and saw confirmation that the Saints can hear our prayers and that God wants us to pray to Him in communion/community with the Saints to fully experience the richness of His divine reality.
I’m entering this thread late, so this approach may have already been mentioned.
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