Can a Person

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Recently, I was flipping through TV channels (never anything to watch.) I came across a Christian station and found Hal Lindsey…

Oh no, THAT guy. I know Orthodox who follow him religiously, which saddens me, given him and his theology are about AS FAR AWAY from Orthodox theology as you can get. Simply goes to show you how poorly informed people of specific churches can be of what their own church teaches.

The point is, why are people still listening to him, after his failed prophecies?

People want their ears tickled. Paul himself knew this would happen. Why are the prosperity gospel preachers still popular even after all their scandals and false prophecies? Because people like the idea of materialistic love rather than divine. It suits their earthly needs and desires. Giving up that stuff for God is just too hard…

Do you believe prophets will appear again, who will receive prophecies from God to predict future events regarding the “end of days” (I acknowledge varying interpretations of the “end of days”)? Or do we rely upon the prophecies already contained in Holy Scripture? IOW, if Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, will there be more Prophets? Christ did speak of people prophesying in the last days.

If you read Patristics, the prophets are of the NT were mainly teachers - which, actually, the OT prophets were as well. Nowadays there is way too much emphasis on the foretelling that the OT prophets did, but that wasn’t the only thing they did and that wasn’t the sole reason they came down here. Their main goal was to bring the people to God - now that that role is filled by our Lord, their role is maintained in a teaching position that guides the people away from sin and error.

I don’t think we’ll see prophets like Moses or Elijah because there is no need for them. Will we see men like Peter, Paul, and John? God willing, and if we have ears to hear and hearts that are open.

 

[yankee_doodle]

The point is, why are people still listening to him, after his failed prophecies?

hate to point out the obvious … but isn’t that what all religious people do (essentially)? :sad_yes:

But stuff like Hal Lindsey (or Benny Hinn) is extremely funny to watch; and informative. I mean if you want proof that people could have ever been that stupid and gullible – just watch these guys in action on TV.

Most people are (unfortunately) unaware that the enlightenment ever happened!

 

[Anna_Scott]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott
Recently, I was flipping through TV channels (never anything to watch.) I came across a Christian station and found Hal Lindsey…

Oh no, THAT guy. I know Orthodox who follow him religiously, which saddens me, given him and his theology are about AS FAR AWAY from Orthodox theology as you can get. Simply goes to show you how poorly informed people of specific churches can be of what their own church teaches.

I’m really surprised that Orthodox would follow him. His views do not seem “Orthodox.”

Originally Posted by Anna Scott
The point is, why are people still listening to him, after his failed prophecies?

People want their ears tickled. Paul himself knew this would happen. Why are the prosperity gospel preachers still popular even after all their scandals and false prophecies? Because people like the idea of materialistic love rather than divine. It suits their earthly needs and desires. Giving up that stuff for God is just too hard…

I think you are right about this.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott
Do you believe prophets will appear again, who will receive prophecies from God to predict future events regarding the “end of days” (I acknowledge varying interpretations of the “end of days”)? Or do we rely upon the prophecies already contained in Holy Scripture? IOW, if Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, will there be more Prophets? Christ did speak of people prophesying in the last days.

If you read Patristics, the prophets are of the NT were mainly teachers - which, actually, the OT prophets were as well. Nowadays there is way too much emphasis on the foretelling that the OT prophets did, but that wasn’t the only thing they did and that wasn’t the sole reason they came down here. Their main goal was to bring the people to God - now that that role is filled by our Lord, their role is maintained in a teaching position that guides the people away from sin and error.

I don’t think we’ll see prophets like Moses or Elijah because there is no need for them. Will we see men like Peter, Paul, and John? God willing, and if we have ears to hear and hearts that are open.

That is an interesting view on “prophets.” I do agree that the role of prophets has been to “guide people away from sin and error.”

I think we have a dangerous situation in today’s climate of sensationalism found in many Christian groups. I fear the false healers and false prophets will continue to provide such a “show,” that few will be listening to the true teachers and prophets.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

hate to point out the obvious … but isn’t that what all religious people do (essentially)? :sad_yes:

But stuff like Hal Lindsey (or Benny Hinn) is extremely funny to watch; and informative. I mean if you want proof that people could have ever been that stupid and gullible – just watch these guys in action on TV.

Most people are (unfortunately) unaware that the enlightenment ever happened!

Yankee:

I don’t think all people continue to listen to false teachers and false prophets. Granted, many people do follow their religious leaders with “blinders” on–very dangerous.

Yet, there are many, myself included, who question the religion of their upbringing, and search for God’s truth. I am on that journey now; and it is not an easy one. Breaking free from a lifetime of indoctrination is so very difficult.

If you have read many of my posts, you will find that I have more questions than answers at this point in the journey. I am, without a doubt, Christian. I just don’t have all the details figured out yet.

Anna

 

[yankee_doodle]

Yankee:

I don’t think all people continue to listen to false teachers and false prophets. Granted, many people do follow their religious leaders with “blinders” on–very dangerous.

Yet, there are many, myself included, who question the religion of their upbringing, and search for God’s truth. I am on that journey now; and it is not an easy one. Breaking free from a lifetime of indoctrination is so very difficult.

couldn’t agree more (I myself broke from a lifetime of indoctrination). My search for god’s truth led me to conclude that god is probably not real.

If you have read many of my posts, you will find that I have more questions than answers at this point in the journey. I am, without a doubt, Christian. I just don’t have all the details figured out yet.

Anna

good luck (sometimes I wish faith were possible for me, but it’s not). Myth is certainly more attractive than reality. We’re emotional and intelligent creatures, and as such we have a desire for whatever soothes superstition and promotes wonder. We all have a will to power, which gives us the impetus to demand an explanation (and one that is centered on us).

Nevertheless I believe we can only properly examine religion apart from these irrational (but very natural and understandable) influences. In other words empirical analysis requires an ability to sufficiently subdue our passions (without dispensing with them altogether).

 

[Anna_Scott]

couldn’t agree more (I myself broke from a lifetime of indoctrination). My search for god’s truth led me to conclude that god is probably not real.

good luck (sometimes I wish faith were possible for me, but it’s not). Myth is certainly more attractive than reality. We’re emotional and intelligent creatures, and as such we have a desire for whatever soothes superstition and promotes wonder. We all have a will to power, which gives us the impetus to demand an explanation (and one that is centered on us).

Nevertheless I believe we can only properly examine religion apart from these irrational (but very natural and understandable) influences. In other words empirical analysis requires an ability to sufficiently subdue our passions (without dispensing with them altogether).

Actually, the many false prophets and false teachers are leading people astray; and often leading people away from God. The “feel-good gospels of prosperity” and the “easy road to heaven” are preached all around us. Though prevalent, there is little truth to be found in them.

I think many of today’s ministers easily fall into the category of false prophets. They are giving people what they want to hear, rather than the true Gospel of Christ.

Perhaps, these false gospels “soothe superstition and promote wonder.” Again, they distract from the true Gospel of Christ. Unfortunately, their voices seem to be getting louder.

BWolf made a very accurate statement, “People like the idea of materialistic love rather than divine. It suits their earthly needs and desires.”

. . People want their ears tickled. Paul himself knew this would happen. Why are the prosperity gospel preachers still popular even after all their scandals and false prophecies? Because people like the idea of materialistic love rather than divine. It suits their earthly needs and desires. Giving up that stuff for God is just too hard…

If you read Patristics, the prophets are of the NT were mainly teachers - which, actually, the OT prophets were as well. Nowadays there is way too much emphasis on the foretelling that the OT prophets did, but that wasn’t the only thing they did and that wasn’t the sole reason they came down here. Their main goal was to bring the people to God - now that that role is filled by our Lord, their role is maintained in a teaching position that guides the people away from sin and error. . .

Yankee, I can relate to your questioning. Empirical examination can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. God is made known through inspired writings and inspired oral tradition. Christ is known in the spiritual realm–not to be confused with the “emotional” realm found in many religions today.

I often wonder into the wilderness of empirical scrutiny. I return to the path of Christ, exhausted by the less-than-fruitful wondering.

I know that even the apostles, who were with Christ, asked Him to increase their faith.

Luke 17:5 (English Standard Version): 5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

There have been many times, when I asked God to give me “belief in my unbelief,” remembering this passage in Mark:

Mark 9: 23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

I hope you have not given up entirely.

Peace be with you,
Anna

 

[yankee_doodle]

Actually, the many false prophets and false teachers are leading people astray; and often leading people away from God. The “feel-good gospels of prosperity” and the “easy road to heaven” are preached all around us. Though prevalent, there is little truth to be found in them.

I think many of today’s ministers easily fall into the category of false prophets. They are giving people what they want to hear, rather than the true Gospel of Christ.

Perhaps, these false gospels “soothe superstition and promote wonder.” Again, they distract from the true Gospel of Christ. Unfortunately, their voices seem to be getting louder.

This wasn’t my case. I come from a very traditional religious outlook. Nevertheless I find the evidence for the base claims Christianity is premised on to be nothing more than fiction.

BWolf made a very accurate statement, “People like the idea of materialistic love rather than divine. It suits their earthly needs and desires.”

I suppose this could be true for some, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. I would far prefer to think I will wind up in a celestial paradise as an immortal quasi-angelic being who is incapable of despair or error. I’m afraid though this expectation is not real.

Yankee, I can relate to your questioning. Empirical examination can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. God is made known through inspired writings and inspired oral tradition. Christ is known in the spiritual realm–not to be confused with the “emotional” realm found in many religions today.

That’s the mantra, but again I disagree. Evidence is found in the abundance of facts that discredit religious claims. As I’ve mentioned previously, Genesis and Exodus are outside the range of reasonable historical possibility. The myths surrounding Jesus cannot be substantiated (and therefore from an evidentiary standpoint are no more compelling than the myths surrounding Muhammad or Buddha). The parallels to earlier myths have even been noted by famed Christian apologists like Justin Martyr.

When I add it up religion is an impossible belief system.

I often wonder into the wilderness of empirical scrutiny. I return to the path of Christ, exhausted by the less-than-fruitful wondering.

Intellectual exhaustion doesn’t say anything, really, does it?

I know that even the apostles, who were with Christ, asked Him to increase their faith.

Luke 17:5 (English Standard Version): 5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

There have been many times, when I asked God to give me “belief in my unbelief,” remembering this passage in Mark:

Mark 9: 23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

I hope you have not given up entirely.

Peace be with you,
Anna

The thing is all things aren’t possible for one who believes are they? I’ve known many who lost loved ones, who believed in god and Jesus very strongly, who would have given anything to have their loved one back. Unfortunately the “all things” that are supposed to be possible are always things allegedly written on god’s terms, but those terms never seem to coincide with our desires.

It’s like you go to your priest or pastor and say I’ve been wishing for X and I’ve been praying like a machine, but I get nothing. The priest or pastor suggest you’re not praying in the right way. So they give you some suggestions, you follow them to the letter, and still nothing. You go back to your clergyman and he says whatever it is you want must not be in god’s plan. But then you think how the bible says all things are possible if we ask for them in faith.

Forgot to read the fine print though. Only things that both you want and fall within god’s plan will be granted. Don’t be disappointed because prayers are virtually never answered (in any real way). Sure, the pastor will convince you that your prayers are considered and answered, but in a way of god’s choosing (which means you’ll never have any real evidence that your doing anything more than praying to the wind, you’ll just have to take his word for it).

Eventually religion becomes so silly, you realize it’s really just insulting your intelligence.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I’m really surprised that Orthodox would follow him. His views do not seem “Orthodox.”

Many, especially in America, do not know what being “Orthodox” means. If they did, they would protest the presence of organs and choirs in our churches, and shake their heads in confusion when priests call the holy mysteries “sacraments”

That is an interesting view on “prophets.” I do agree that the role of prophets has been to “guide people away from sin and error.”

I think we have a dangerous situation in today’s climate of sensationalism found in many Christian groups. I fear the false healers and false prophets will continue to provide such a “show,” that few will be listening to the true teachers and prophets.

The problem we face is because all these false teachers and prophets have such wide availability - either on the internet, books, magazines or TV - they get much exposure. As a result, people are bombarded with this night and day to the point where they think this is “true” Christianity.

Fulton Sheen once said, “Millions of people hate the Catholic Church - millions more hate what they think is the Catholic Church.” I think this is true for all of Christianity. When I engage in apologetics with liberal or weak-faithed Christians, what I often have to do is educate them on just what is and isn’t real Christianity.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Many, especially in America, do not know what being “Orthodox” means. If they did, they would protest the presence of organs and choirs in our churches, and shake their heads in confusion when priests call the holy mysteries “sacraments”

but what’s so mysterious about it (referring to your rituals)?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Many, especially in America, do not know what being “Orthodox” means. If they did, they would protest the presence of organs and choirs in our churches, and shake their heads in confusion when priests call the holy mysteries “sacraments”

The problem we face is because all these false teachers and prophets have such wide availability - either on the internet, books, magazines or TV - they get much exposure. As a result, people are bombarded with this night and day to the point where they think this is “true” Christianity.

Fulton Sheen once said, “Millions of people hate the Catholic Church - millions more hate what they think is the Catholic Church.” I think this is true for all of Christianity. When I engage in apologetics with liberal or weak-faithed Christians, what I often have to do is educate them on just what is and isn’t real Christianity.

You hit the core of my own personal struggle–shedding 54 years of indoctrination and setting out to find the truth of Christianity. You know this about me, Mr. Wolf. It’s a rocky road. I found very quickly that many Churches don’t like questions. They want blind followers.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

This wasn’t my case. I come from a very traditional religious outlook. Nevertheless I find the evidence for the base claims Christianity is premised on to be nothing more than fiction.

I suppose this could be true for some, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. I would far prefer to think I will wind up in a celestial paradise as an immortal quasi-angelic being who is incapable of despair or error. I’m afraid though this expectation is not real.

That’s the mantra, but again I disagree. Evidence is found in the abundance of facts that discredit religious claims. As I’ve mentioned previously, Genesis and Exodus are outside the range of reasonable historical possibility. The myths surrounding Jesus cannot be substantiated (and therefore from an evidentiary standpoint are no more compelling than the myths surrounding Muhammad or Buddha). The parallels to earlier myths have even been noted by famed Christian apologists like Justin Martyr.

When I add it up religion is an impossible belief system.

Intellectual exhaustion doesn’t say anything, really, does it?

The thing is all things aren’t possible for one who believes are they? I’ve known many who lost loved ones, who believed in god and Jesus very strongly, who would have given anything to have their loved one back. Unfortunately the “all things” that are supposed to be possible are always things allegedly written on god’s terms, but those terms never seem to coincide with our desires.

It’s like you go to your priest or pastor and say I’ve been wishing for X and I’ve been praying like a machine, but I get nothing. The priest or pastor suggest you’re not praying in the right way. So they give you some suggestions, you follow them to the letter, and still nothing. You go back to your clergyman and he says whatever it is you want must not be in god’s plan. But then you think how the bible says all things are possible if we ask for them in faith.

Forgot to read the fine print though. Only things that both you want and fall within god’s plan will be granted. Don’t be disappointed because prayers are virtually never answered (in any real way). Sure, the pastor will convince you that your prayers are considered and answered, but in a way of god’s choosing (which means you’ll never have any real evidence that your doing anything more than praying to the wind, you’ll just have to take his word for it).

Eventually religion becomes so silly, you realize it’s really just insulting your intelligence.

I do understand. I went through reading one book after another on the history of pagan myths and how close that appear to Christianity.

Ironically, the answered prayers and the obvious protection I received entered the realm of miracles. Too many things have happened in my life that cannot be explained by some random occurrence. And I have heard that “small still voice” that Christians talk about. When I ignored it, I walked into disaster. When I listened, I was delivered from disaster. Even when prayers were not answered; as things unfolded, I discovered I was asking for things that would have been wrong in the end.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

but what’s so mysterious about it (referring to your rituals)?

The “mystery” aspect refers to the fact that we cannot fully explain God or His works - at least not in the same manner that, say, a psychologist could explain a sociopath or a geologist could explain the formation of a diamond. There’s a wonderful quote by St. Gregory of Nyssa which goes, “Anyone who tries to describe the ineffable Light in language is truly a liar - not because he hates the truth, but because of the inadequacy of his description.”

You hit the core of my own personal struggle–shedding 54 years of indoctrination and setting out to find the truth of Christianity. You know this about me, Mr. Wolf. It’s a rocky road. I found very quickly that many Churches don’t like questions. They want blind followers.

Anna

I’m always amused when I hear about these churches that don’t like questions. I often wondered what church those people go to. The last two churches I attended had “Orthodoxy 101” classes (or something similarly named) for the specific purpose to let people ask questions. In fact, when one thinks on it, Christ allowed questions throughout His ministry. I usually tell my non-Christian or curious Christian friends they’re more than welcome to ask me question, in fact I like answering them.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The “mystery” aspect refers to the fact that we cannot fully explain God or His works - at least not in the same manner that, say, a psychologist could explain a sociopath or a geologist could explain the formation of a diamond. There’s a wonderful quote by St. Gregory of Nyssa which goes, “Anyone who tries to describe the ineffable Light in language is truly a liar - not because he hates the truth, but because of the inadequacy of his description.”

I’m always amused when I hear about these churches that don’t like questions. I often wondered what church those people go to. The last two churches I attended had “Orthodoxy 101” classes (or something similarly named) for the specific purpose to let people ask questions. In fact, when one thinks on it, Christ allowed questions throughout His ministry. I usually tell my non-Christian or curious Christian friends they’re more than welcome to ask me question, in fact I like answering them.

Well, in this case it was a Baptist Church. I’m sure that is no surprise. I actually got in all sorts of trouble on a Protestant Forum/Baptist Thread for asking the wrong questions (different website.) Having left the Baptist world, I am realizing more and more the tactics used to keep people blindly following doctrines. I was told I had a faith issue, because I didn’t believe in the literal 6-day creation described in Genesis (I think I told you that before.) Many of the questions and discussions, here, would be declared heretical by many fundamentalist churches.

One of the most effective tools used, is to declare certain Bible translations or certain books to be the work of Satan–which I think was precisely the tactic used, recently, by a fundamentalist Baptist group that planned to burn Bibles and books on Halloween–don’t know how that turned out–lost interest in the story.

Anyway, instilling fear keeps the “blinders” in place, and few dare to question or read anything outside that small world. This is really a cult mentality. I’m off topic now. Though, it does relate to false teachings and false prophets; and the tactics they use to perpetuate a false religion. So, guess I’m not too far off.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Well, in this case it was a Baptist Church. I’m sure that is no surprise. I actually got in all sorts of trouble on a Protestant Forum/Baptist Thread for asking the wrong questions (different website.) Having left the Baptist world, I am realizing more and more the tactics used to keep people blindly following doctrines. I was told I had a faith issue, because I didn’t believe in the literal 6-day creation described in Genesis (I think I told you that before.) Many of the questions and discussions, here, would be declared heretical by many fundamentalist churches.

One of the most effective tools used, is to declare certain Bible translations or certain books to be the work of Satan–which I think was precisely the tactic used, recently, by a fundamentalist Baptist group that planned to burn Bibles and books on Halloween–don’t know how that turned out–lost interest in the story.

Anyway, instilling fear keeps the “blinders” in place, and few dare to question or read anything outside that small world. This is really a cult mentality. I’m off topic now. Though, it does relate to false teachings and false prophets; and the tactics they use to perpetuate a false religion. So, guess I’m not too far off.

Anna

There is nothing wrong with asking questions. The only time it is bad is when those questions have presuppositions or malignant intent behind them. The Fathers of the Church answered questions on hot topics for hundreds upon hundreds of years, therefore we should not fear questions ourselves. The sooner a believer realizes that, the stronger in faith they will be.

 

[Nine_Two]

Ironically, the answered prayers and the obvious protection I received entered the realm of miracles. Too many things have happened in my life that cannot be explained by some random occurrence. And I have heard that “small still voice” that Christians talk about. When I ignored it, I walked into disaster. When I listened, I was delivered from disaster. Even when prayers were not answered; as things unfolded, I discovered I was asking for things that would have been wrong in the end.

Anna

I’m with you there. I’ve seen and experienced things that have no explanation within rational science. They don’t necessarily prove the existence of God, however they make it difficult to accept that science holds all the answers, particularly with the way it now tries to look at the universe.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m with you there. I’ve seen and experienced things that have no explanation within rational science. They don’t necessarily prove the existence of God, however they make it difficult to accept that science holds all the answers, particularly with the way it now tries to look at the universe.

Nine_Two: Good to hear.

BTW, I spent the coldest Winder of my life in Calgary, many, many, many years ago. I’ve never forgotten the cold.

Anna

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine_Two: Good to hear.

BTW, I spent the coldest Winder of my life in Calgary, many, many, many years ago. I’ve never forgotten the cold.

Anna

You get used to those.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Nine_Two: Good to hear.

BTW, I spent the coldest Winder of my life in Calgary, many, many, many years ago. I’ve never forgotten the cold.

Anna

Those Canadians are tough.

There was a young girl from Quebec
Found frozen in snow to her neck
When asked, “Is you Friz?”
She said, “Yes I Is.”
“But we don’t call this cold in Quebec.”

 

[peary]

I was rather startled that Lindsey still had an audience, after the failure of his predictions in his book, “The Late Great Planet Earth.” I remember that book from years ago. I think he predicted the Tribulation and/or the Rapture would occur no later than 1988. I’m not sure. It’s been a long time. The point is, why are people still listening to him, after his failed prophecies?

As P.T. Barnum used to say, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”

 

[Anna_Scott]

. .Recently, I was flipping through TV channels (never anything to watch.) I came across a Christian station and found Hal Lindsey talking about world events and prophecy.

I was rather startled that Lindsey still had an audience, after the failure of his predictions in his book, “The Late Great Planet Earth.” I remember that book from years ago. I think he predicted the Tribulation and/or the Rapture would occur no later than 1988. I’m not sure. It’s been a long time. The point is, why are people still listening to him, after his failed prophecies?

As P.T. Barnum used to say, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”

I think people are so desperate to fill the void left in them by a world obsessed with materialism and fame–they will grab onto almost anything. Given the right set of circumstances, none of us are really quite immune to such a possibility.

BWolf said it very well:

. .People want their ears tickled. Paul himself knew this would happen. Why are the prosperity gospel preachers still popular even after all their scandals and false prophecies? Because people like the idea of materialistic love rather than divine. It suits their earthly needs and desires. Giving up that stuff for God is just too hard…

Anna