Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter eelpis
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nope, basically almost the whole text of the prayers for the bread and the wine.
 
AlexV said:
Invalid? Nope. But again, I urge people to move away from worrying about questions of validity and infallibility.
Click to expand...
Why couldn’t a Pope promulgate an invalid Mass? I’m just wondering. I’m not saying the New Mass is invalid. The Fathers all said the Pope could be a heretic. Why couldn’t he also promulgate an invalid Mass?

Pax Christi tecum.
 
Fair enough, but what about this part ?

By the mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity

Do Jews consider Chist divine ?

What I’m having trouble with on this is that if we strip away all that is “based” on Jewish origin, what are we left with ?

Was John The Baptist a jew ? If so, is Baptism non-catholic ?
 
I didn’t say EVERY prayer of the gift preparation was Jewish. The prayer for the water is a fragment left from a longer prayer Bugnini’s hack committee hacked up.
 
I_Believe said:
Fair enough, but what about this part ?

By the mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity

Do Jews consider Chist divine ?

What I’m having trouble with on this is that if we strip away all that is “based” on Jewish origin, what are we left with ?

Was John The Baptist a jew ? If so, is Baptism non-catholic ?
Click to expand...
The thing is John the Baptist was preparation for Christ, preparing the way for the Lord. It’d be different if it was from the Old Testament or something but it sounds like it is Talmudic which is from the time after Christ, a time when Jews where hostile to Christianity. I see your point but at the same time I don’t know why we’d need to use something like that when what we had was more than adequate.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
strugglingalong said:
Why couldn’t a Pope promulgate an invalid Mass?
Click to expand...
Because we are supposed to accept all changes to liturgy coming from the Pope as valid, even if it’s confusing or the Pope is mentally unstable. But that’s we have future Popes to correct them. 🙂
 
AlexV said:
I didn’t say EVERY prayer of the gift preparation was Jewish. The prayer for the water is a fragment left from a longer prayer Bugnini’s hack committee hacked up.
Click to expand...
Ok, so there is indeed some Roman Catholic Doctrine implied ?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending the way they went about re-writing the Liturgy. Or the way some clergy "do it their way ". I just don’t see, on paper, anything contrary to Roman Catholic Doctrine in the missal itself.

Do I prefer the Gregorian Rite prayers ? Certainly. It’s a no brainer IMO. 🙂 More Doctrine, deliberate reverence, and humility.
 
Did I ever say there was anything contrary to Catholic doctrine in them?

Nope.

I said the prayers over the bread and wine were newly composed and based on Jewish blessing prayers.
 
strugglingalong said:
The thing is John the Baptist was preparation for Christ, preparing the way for the Lord. It’d be different if it was from the Old Testament or something but it sounds like it is Talmudic which is from the time after Christ, a time when Jews where hostile to Christianity. I see your point but at the same time I don’t know why we’d need to use something like that when what we had was more than adequate.

Pax Christi tecum.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but “based on”, and “sounds like” don’t seem to be enough reason to overshadow the fact that the Roman Catholic Doctrine is still there 🤷

Sorry to be so brief, but I’m going to be late for work if I don’t get off here. Thanks to all who replied.

God Bless
 
AlexV said:
Nope, basically almost the whole text of the prayers for the bread and the wine.
Click to expand...
This is not quite right.

Jewish blessings, which are ancient and would probably have been said at the first Mass, essentially all start like this:
Barukh atah Adonai, Eloheinu, melekh ha-olam…
Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the Universe…
This could be rendered, “Blessed are You, Lord, God of all creation…”, although it is conspicuous that the possessive “our God” has been dropped in the Offertory version.

There is a Jewish blessing for nearly everything, for those who take the trouble to learn them, from having lived to see a milestone celebration to seeing a rainbow.

These are the blessings for bread and wine.
The prayers of Offertory obviously have substantially more to their text than this:

Barukh atah Adonai, Eloheinu, melekh ha-olam hamotzi lechem min ha’aretz.
Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.

*Barukh atah Adonai, Eloheinu, melekh ha-olam borei p’ri hagafen *
Blessed are you, Lord, our God, sovereign of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.
(This is part of the kiddush for Sabbath at which the wine is blessed. The entire prayer is longer than that.)

These are set prayers…In other words, you had better not tell a Jew that the Offertory prayer from the Catholic Mass is still Jewish! It is not!
strugglingalong said:
I do think a liturgy can either assist or block our disposition to receive graces in the Sacrament. For example, it could require far more effort to be better disposed if the prayers are ambiguous and watered-down.
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly…but we have the duty to dispose ourselves as best we can.
strugglingalong said:
Also, could the Pope ever promulgate a Mass that is invalid? Why or why not?

Pax Christi tecum.
Click to expand...
Whether or not it is possible, I am sorry to say that I don’t know. It has not happened yet.
 
I stand by what I said. The prayers over the bread and wine are new compositions based on Jewish blessings for meals.
 
AlexV said:
Nope, basically almost the whole text of the prayers for the bread and the wine.
Click to expand...
AlexV said:
I stand by what I said. The prayers over the bread and wine are new compositions based on Jewish blessings for meals.
Click to expand...
It depends on what you meant by “almost the whole text.” I think the Offeratory is quite a bit different. A Jew certainly would.
 
There is no “offertory”…it’s not called that anymore. And it really doesn’t matter what a Jew thinks about this, the prayers Bugnini’s Commission picked were new compositions based on Jewish blessings for meals.
 
AlexV said:
There is no “offertory”…it’s not called that anymore. And it really doesn’t matter what a Jew thinks about this, the prayers Bugnini’s Commission picked were new compositions based on Jewish blessings for meals.
Click to expand...
All right. The presentation of the gifts, then. Forgive me for showing my age. 😃

It is well to be careful about telling a Jew what is and isn’t “a Jewish prayer”, though. That those prayers have a Jewish origin–as the whole Mass does, the first Mass having been in the context of a Seder meal, the sacrifice of the Lamb of God having been pre-figured by the passover lamb, and the Incarnation having come through the Jews in fulfillment of God’s promises to the royal Davidic line, and the entire Bible having been committed to paper by those born Jews–does not mean they are Jewish prayers. You might as well say that Mormonism is based on Catholicism. Well, yeah, in a way, but…
 
EasterJoy said:
All right. The presentation of the gifts, then. Forgive me for showing my age. 😃

It is well to be careful about telling a Jew what is and isn’t “a Jewish prayer”, though. That those prayers have a Jewish origin–as the whole Mass does, the first Mass having been in the context of a Seder meal, the sacrifice of the Lamb of God having been pre-figured by the passover lamb, and the Incarnation having come through the Jews in fulfillment of God’s promises to the royal Davidic line, and the entire Bible having been committed to paper by those born Jews–does not mean they are Jewish prayers. You might as well say that Mormonism is based on Catholicism. Well, yeah, in a way, but…
Click to expand...
Being based on the Old Testament does not make the Mass Jewish. Any connection, though, to the Talmud, if there is any, should be a no-no.
 
strugglingalong said:
But infallibility only pertains to Ecumenical Councils and the Pope from the “chair of St. Peter.” Not every action and decision that pertains to faith and morals is an object of infallibility or we’d have to say that all the Church, or perhaps the Pope at times, decides and says is infallibly true.

The New Mass originates from the Consilium, not from an Ecumenical Council, and thus enjoys no protection of infallibility. Many argue that since Vatican II was a pastoral council, as Cardinal Ratzinger himself stated, there was nothing infallible about it either.

Pax Christi tecum.
Click to expand...
This is false. Who teaches this? The Church is also infallible in her ordinary magisterium. I can provide the approved sources to back it up.

SFD
 
Yes, and “ordinary magisterium”, like “infallibility”, is a tad bit more limited in scope than some would have us believe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top