Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter eelpis
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Your arrogant presumptions, and irrelevant off-topic posts, are what I object to.

I have read plenty about infallibility. I stand by my statement. It’s a tad less all-encompassing than some people around here think.
 
AlexV said:
There’s no dispute here, save the glaring fact this is a thread about BAD LITURGY and not papal infallibility or artifical contraception.
Click to expand...
True.

Try this analogy on for size: “bad liturgy” is like a poor NFL rulebook. If it is poor, it poses obstacles to playing the game at its highest level. It makes officiating a nightmare. It keeps talent from expressing itself. It leads to technical developments in the sport that unfairly exploit unintended loopholes in the rules.

If the rulebook is poor, top level play is not impossible. The winner at the end of the season is still the NFL champion. Teams that win and are within the rules are not cheaters. But even when the game is played at the top level, a desire to improve things remains when the season ends and is reviewed. Also, sometimes even a good change in the rules needs adjustment to correct unintended consequences. It is not that the change needs to be thrown out, but it does mean that the rulebook needs a re-write to make the change that was actually intended the first time around, without the unintended side-effects.

In this sense, yes, a Pope can promulgate a less satisfactory liturgy, even a bad one. Using the football analogy and applying it to the Church’s case, though, what he promulgates still defines what football is. Defining liturgy is one of the Pope’s roles. I don’t think any of the current liturgies are bad, but I think the Church’s desire to keep improving the GIRM are very worthwhile.
 
AlexV said:
Your arrogant presumptions, and irrelevant off-topic posts, are what I object to.

I have read plenty about infallibility. I stand by my statement. It’s a tad less all-encompassing than some people around here think.
Click to expand...
Again, what Catholic sources can we agree upon to settle this dispute?
It’s a tad less all-encompassing than some people around here think.
Click to expand...
Why don’t you go look something up…even a canned spam response is better that this. So papal encyclicals are just “spam” to you?

SFD
 
SFD said:
Again, what Catholic sources can we agree upon to settle this dispute?

Why don’t you go look something up…even a canned spam response is better that this. So papal encyclicals are just “spam” to you?

SFD
Click to expand...
“Can a pope promulgate a bad liturgy?”

Define “bad liturgy”. Then it will become clear whether infallibility comes into it or not.
 
I’m not getting into one of these forum’s tediously tired copy and paste wars where the weapons are out of context quotes from various papal and magisterial documents.

Especially not in a thread devoted to bad liturgy, which you keep ignoring.
 
EasterJoy said:
True.

Try this analogy on for size: “bad liturgy” is like a poor NFL rulebook. If it is poor, it poses obstacles to playing the game at its highest level. It makes officiating a nightmare. It keeps talent from expressing itself. It leads to technical developments in the sport that unfairly exploit unintended loopholes in the rules.

If the rulebook is poor, top level play is not impossible. The winner at the end of the season is still the NFL champion. Teams that win and are within the rules are not cheaters. But even when the game is played at the top level, a desire to improve things remains when the season ends and is reviewed. Also, sometimes even a good change in the rules needs adjustment to correct unintended consequences. It is not that the change needs to be thrown out, but it does mean that the rulebook needs a re-write to make the change that was actually intended the first time around, without the unintended side-effects.

In this sense, yes, a Pope can promulgate a less satisfactory liturgy, even a bad one. Using the football analogy and applying it to the Church’s case, though, what he promulgates still defines what football is. Defining liturgy is one of the Pope’s roles. I don’t think any of the current liturgies are bad, but I think the Church’s desire to keep improving the GIRM are very worthwhile.
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t it be better to read and quote some approved and weighty theologians here…instead of coming up with your own analogy. The approved teachers are to be learned from…not ignored. When you try to “figure it out on your own” you tend to get it wrong.

SFD
 
That’s right, just read and quote. Creative thought not required. Reasoning not required. Just look it up and quote it. That’s where theology is for some people these days.
 
AlexV said:
I’m not getting into one of these forum’s tediously tired copy and paste wars where the weapons are out of context quotes from various papal and magisterial documents.

Especially not in a thread devoted to bad liturgy, which you keep ignoring.
Click to expand...
I’m asking you to agree to a source that discusses THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE. That is the extent of the Infallibility of the Church. Nothing will be “out of context”…in will be the context.

SFD
 
I am no longer posting about an off-topic issue. The topic is bad liturgy. Period.
 
AlexV said:
That’s right, just read and quote. Creative thought not required. Reasoning not required. Just look it up and quote it. That’s where theology is for some people these days.
Click to expand...
Are you smarter than Tanqurey, or Billot, or Franzelin? What about St. Alphonsus and St. Robert Bellarmine (Doctors of the Church, mind you)? Did they not reason out the theology for us? Are they not the theologians approved by the Church?

You and I are nobody…we should be reading and quoting them!

SFD
 
Intelligent people read the works of masters and then reason things out for themselves after reading the (often contradictory) works of different thinkers. They don’t just read and quote, read and quote.
 
AlexV said:
I am no longer posting about an off-topic issue. The topic is bad liturgy. Period.
Click to expand...
That’s because you don’t know what your talking about. I’m sorry for being so hard on you here, but you are advising others to “do their own theology”… which is dead wrong and far from where a Catholic’s mind should be.

SFD
 
More arrogant presumption.

I suggest you read my posts closely, perhaps parsing them.

And, despite your obstinance, the thread is bad liturgy. This is my last post except for on-thread arguments.
 
AlexV said:
Intelligent people read the works of masters and then reason things out for themselves after reading the (often contradictory) works of different thinkers. They don’t just read and quote, read and quote.
Click to expand...
This is THEOLOGICALLY CERTAIN doctrine…there aren’t any major differences between theologians on this issue (disciplinary infallibility). They all say the same thing about it because it is certain doctrine. If you had read any dogmatic theology you might know that.

SFD
 
You’ve been discredited, AlexV. That’s all I can do. You don’t see it, but maybe others will.

SFD
 
See previous post. You know, an apparently vain attempt to get us back on track. After my alleged “discrediting” by someone in an amateurs’ court who knows nothing about my education and academic background, all because I refuse to get into a copy and paste war of the sort this forum has seen too much of. It must gall you that someone won’t play the all-to–typical copy and paste game of the amateur theologian.

I suggest you also go look up “presumption” in your many books/internet sources. Then go back and read your posts slowly and carefully.

Now…back to the issue of bad liturgy…
 
EasterJoy said:
Try this analogy on for size: “bad liturgy” is like a poor NFL rulebook. … I don’t think any of the current liturgies are bad, but I think the Church’s desire to keep improving the GIRM are very worthwhile.
Click to expand...
Changing the rules is one thing. Moving the goal posts is quite another. Sure, they CAN do it but how exciting will the game be after a few quarters? 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top