K
Keikiolu
Guest
To love God, we must do as He says.
To not do as He says is to not love God.
Can one be a “good Christian” and not love God…?
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To not do as He says is to not love God.
Can one be a “good Christian” and not love God…?
N
newmember
Guest
Times have changed,
And we’ve often rewound the clock,
Since the Puritans got a shock,
When they landed on Plymouth Rock.
If today,
Any shock they should try to stem,
'Stead of landing on Plymouth Rock,
Plymouth Rock would land on them.
In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows,
Anything Goes.
Good authors too who once knew better words,
Now only use four letter words
Writing prose, Anything Goes.
The world has gone mad today
And good’s bad today,
And black’s white today,
And day’s night today,
When most guys today
That women prize today
Are just silly gigolos
And though I’m not a great romancer
I know that I’m bound to answer
When you propose,
Anything goes
When grandmama whose age is eighty
In night clubs is getting matey with gigolo’s,
Anything Goes.
When mothers pack and leave poor father
Because they decide they’d rather be tennis pros,
Anything Goes.
If driving fast cars you like,
If low bars you like,
If old hymns you like,
If bare limbs you like,
If Mae West you like
Or me undressed you like,
Why, nobody will oppose!
When every night,
The set that’s smart
Is intruding in nudist parties in studios,
Anything Goes.
And we’ve often rewound the clock,
Since the Puritans got a shock,
When they landed on Plymouth Rock.
If today,
Any shock they should try to stem,
'Stead of landing on Plymouth Rock,
Plymouth Rock would land on them.
In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows,
Anything Goes.
Good authors too who once knew better words,
Now only use four letter words
Writing prose, Anything Goes.
The world has gone mad today
And good’s bad today,
And black’s white today,
And day’s night today,
When most guys today
That women prize today
Are just silly gigolos
And though I’m not a great romancer
I know that I’m bound to answer
When you propose,
Anything goes
When grandmama whose age is eighty
In night clubs is getting matey with gigolo’s,
Anything Goes.
When mothers pack and leave poor father
Because they decide they’d rather be tennis pros,
Anything Goes.
If driving fast cars you like,
If low bars you like,
If old hymns you like,
If bare limbs you like,
If Mae West you like
Or me undressed you like,
Why, nobody will oppose!
When every night,
The set that’s smart
Is intruding in nudist parties in studios,
Anything Goes.
W
wcknight
Guest
Yes, loving God above all else would require that one puts aside their sexual urges and abstain when they are commanded to do so.
D
Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
In reference to the initial question: I seek to do my best, by God’s grace, with what God has given me. Whether or not I’m a good Christian is not for me to decide. I strive to be, but I depend on God’s mercy, not on my own striving or goodness.
Granted, I don’t share the same assumptions as many here re: the sinfulness of homosexual activities. (For instance, I believe the concept of sexual orientation to be largely missing from the Bible, and as the verses commonly used to decry homosexuality do not refer to actions without context but properly refer themselves to specific actions in specific contexts [idolatry, for instance], I question the wide-ranging application of these verses to contexts which are foreign to the understandings of scripture. For the record and to those of you who have your abomination passages handy and ready for deployment, I’m not going to engage in a scripture war).
Neither do I share the apparently concommitant association of homosexuality with unbridled sexual desire. If sex ever was a priority in my partner’s and my relationship (and its questionnable), it has long ago ceased to be one (we’ve been monogamously committed to each other going on 10 years).
You may claim that I’m deluding myself by believing that I can be in a loving relationship with my partner (also a Christian) and still be a Christian. That’s fine. You may find my understanding of my sexuality to be sad or misguided. That’s fine too. You may say that Scripture reveals I’m wrong. I would refer you to what I’ve already written above. You may say that the Magisterium condemns me–but not being a Roman Catholic, I do not unquestioningly submit to its authority. Admittedly, we have different ideas of authority and ecclesiology. You may say that that reveals the shallowness of my faith, and I will commend you on yours. You may discuss natural law–but the natural law arguments against homosexuality always look to me like someone has bent the idea of natural law to accomodate a condemnation of homosexuality, not that the condemnation was neccessarily native to natural law thinking.
You may say I’m a relativist for disagreeing with your operating assumptions re: sexuality. I will say, no, I am an absolutist–I absolutely believe you are in error in this regard. And I absolutely believe that this error leads to, but is not in itself constituent of, discrimination and hatred (the frequency with which homosexuality and homosexual acts are confused on this board is astonishing given the clarity of the catechism). But I do not believe you are sinful to believe what you believe. And I believe that, for the most part, your zeal on this issue comes from a loving place, although that love is often belied by poor catechesis, misunderstandings, and/or occasional self-righteousness.
I also think that the term “practicing homosexual” is misleading, as it implies that homosexuality is some sort of hobby or avocation. I can tell you it is not.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
In reference to the initial question: I seek to do my best, by God’s grace, with what God has given me. Whether or not I’m a good Christian is not for me to decide. I strive to be, but I depend on God’s mercy, not on my own striving or goodness.
Granted, I don’t share the same assumptions as many here re: the sinfulness of homosexual activities. (For instance, I believe the concept of sexual orientation to be largely missing from the Bible, and as the verses commonly used to decry homosexuality do not refer to actions without context but properly refer themselves to specific actions in specific contexts [idolatry, for instance], I question the wide-ranging application of these verses to contexts which are foreign to the understandings of scripture. For the record and to those of you who have your abomination passages handy and ready for deployment, I’m not going to engage in a scripture war).
Neither do I share the apparently concommitant association of homosexuality with unbridled sexual desire. If sex ever was a priority in my partner’s and my relationship (and its questionnable), it has long ago ceased to be one (we’ve been monogamously committed to each other going on 10 years).
You may claim that I’m deluding myself by believing that I can be in a loving relationship with my partner (also a Christian) and still be a Christian. That’s fine. You may find my understanding of my sexuality to be sad or misguided. That’s fine too. You may say that Scripture reveals I’m wrong. I would refer you to what I’ve already written above. You may say that the Magisterium condemns me–but not being a Roman Catholic, I do not unquestioningly submit to its authority. Admittedly, we have different ideas of authority and ecclesiology. You may say that that reveals the shallowness of my faith, and I will commend you on yours. You may discuss natural law–but the natural law arguments against homosexuality always look to me like someone has bent the idea of natural law to accomodate a condemnation of homosexuality, not that the condemnation was neccessarily native to natural law thinking.
You may say I’m a relativist for disagreeing with your operating assumptions re: sexuality. I will say, no, I am an absolutist–I absolutely believe you are in error in this regard. And I absolutely believe that this error leads to, but is not in itself constituent of, discrimination and hatred (the frequency with which homosexuality and homosexual acts are confused on this board is astonishing given the clarity of the catechism). But I do not believe you are sinful to believe what you believe. And I believe that, for the most part, your zeal on this issue comes from a loving place, although that love is often belied by poor catechesis, misunderstandings, and/or occasional self-righteousness.
I also think that the term “practicing homosexual” is misleading, as it implies that homosexuality is some sort of hobby or avocation. I can tell you it is not.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
B
brianwalden
Guest
For those who believe that homosexual acts are not sinful: If we assume your beliefs are true, what’s your theology of the body?
K
Keikiolu
Guest
Finally. A bold believer in anti-Catholicism re: Homosexual acts. How refreshing…!
God’s greatest grace to you…!
Your belief, if you really do live it fully and with firm conviction, wil lead you to the truth.
Of course, it will lead you to the truth of the Church,… but I agree with you entirely that your convicted belief WILL in fact lead you to the truth.
Best to you, and keep on praying…!
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
S
StevenFrancis
Guest
Homosexuals, whether practicing or not, may certainly follow Christ. He is the only hope for their salvation, as with anyone else. We hope and pray that they follow Christ in every way. We just want them to understand, eventually, that what they are doing IS in fact a sin. Many just plain don’t believe it because of incredible lobbies and movements in the late 20th century, and up to today.
Celebate homosexuals need our prayers to stay strong, and continue forward for sure. I wouldn’t deny that at all. However don’t forget that those who are not yet bearing their cross are victims to some extent. They are fallen sinners, as we all have been in our lives. They need our prayers, guidance, and a few onlookers to volunteer to help carry their cross as well.
Yes, it’s hard to take when there are groups out there brainwashing society into embracing mortal sin. Yes, it’s gone beyond tolerance to acceptance in almost every sector, but many young, confused SSA persons are victims of the same propaganda that non-homosexuals hear day in and day out, and since it’s comfortable to hear others talk to you about acceptance of your sin, and then move it into the civil rights arena, etc. you can see how people can by hypnotized and duped into thinking there’s nothing wrong. That’s how evil works. Evil almost always begins with sinners telling other sinners that THEIR sin is okay. It must be! So many people are afflicted with the temptation! How can it be wrong?
It’s the practicing homosexual, heterosexual fornicator, abortionist etc. who are in most need of God’s mercy. We should pray constantly for the strength and courage that these people need to bear this awful burden. We all must battle horrible temptations of some kind. Drugs, Alcohol, Sexual deviance, or maybe just cigarettes, or something. Whenever we allow anything to become more important to us than God, we fall. When we fall, we need somebody there to lift us up, and suggest that we sin no more.
But also let them know that we are there for them, if they fall again. We must all try to live in imitation of Christ Jesus if we ever hope to change a phenomena so widespread, and with such a vicious and loud lobby. We must firmly point out, and not waver on the fact that it is wrong AND be there ready to offer help and alternatives to people when the message starts to sink in.
While I agree with the facts of your statements, I’m just encouraging a bit more charity of heart and presentation.
Pray Pray Pray
Peace to all,
Steven
P
Peregrino
Guest
lol!I have been blessed to receive verbal ministry from some very able Clerks of the Meeting who happened to be gay. They were living in a relationship that had been recorded in the Meeting. These two lesbian women went through the same process “straight” members undertake. They stood before the Meeting and pledged their lives to one another “before God and these Friends”.
I doubt they are “practicing” any longer…I think they have it down pat and have for quite some time.
S
StevenFrancis
Guest
For my reference, because I’m unfamiliar, what is “The Meeting” (capitalized), what is a Clerk of the Meeting? There are some religions I’m not very familiar with. Just curiosity. I’d like to learn a little about all.I have been blessed to receive verbal ministry from some very able Clerks of the Meeting who happened to be gay. They were living in a relationship that had been recorded in the Meeting. These two lesbian women went through the same process “straight” members undertake. They stood before the Meeting and pledged their lives to one another “before God and these Friends”.
I doubt they are “practicing” any longer…I think they have it down pat and have for quite some time.
Thanks,
Peace,
Steven
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Perhaps if one is ignorant of his/her sin, then he/she could see themselves as being ‘good’ Christians. If he/she knows he/she is sinning, then that is a different case. I have been in mortal sin in my life, and for mortal sin to be mortal sin–I must know it is. And I did. Thankfully, I have repented, but before repentance…I was not a good Christian. I don’t know if I would call myself a bad Christian…I think how I looked at myself was living apart from God. That is what we are doing when we live in sin…but, again, one has to know that he/she is sinning–to change, I mean.
C
CathCentrist
Guest
Well said.
D
Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
I do question how you interpret my response as broadly anti-catholic, though. I don’t see opposition to Rome’s views on homosexual acts as equal to a broad position of bold anti-Catholicism. I don’t generally equate moral theology with theology proper. But you do, apparently, and that’s probably what you should do as a Roman Catholic.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
Keikiolu, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to take this. Charity prevents me from assuming that this is an example of smug and self-satisfied sarcasm from someone convinced of his own cleverness, but the tone and tenor of your other posts on this thread argue against charity in this regard. Perhaps the best response would be no response, as I doubt a discussion with you would produce more from you than scorn and little more from me than a quaintly bemused indulgence.
I do question how you interpret my response as broadly anti-catholic, though. I don’t see opposition to Rome’s views on homosexual acts as equal to a broad position of bold anti-Catholicism. I don’t generally equate moral theology with theology proper. But you do, apparently, and that’s probably what you should do as a Roman Catholic.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
B
brianwalden
Guest
I apologize for responding to my own post, and if no one wants to discuss it I won’t mention it again in this thread. But in the Catholic mind, if homosexuality is a natural expression of human sexuality then we need to go back to the drawing board concerning the basic nature of what God created man to be.
Catholics believe that man and woman were made to complete each other in marriage. We believe that through the marital act we imitate and participate in the unity and fruitfulness of the Holy Trinity. From this theology it follows that fornication, masturbation, contraception, homosexuality, etc. go against the very nature according to which God created man. To accept one of these actions as a natural part of God’s plan makes the whole house unstable, if not collapsing it to the ground.
So for the people who believe that homosexual acts are good, what is your theology concerning humankind in general and human sexuality in specific?
S
StevenFrancis
Guest
I am with you, so I don’t really have a comment. I just wanted to compliment you. This is perhaps the best wording and presentation of a question of this nature that I have seen since I have been coming to this Forum. Thoughtful, densely packed with information in just a few short words, and sensitive in it’s nature to those who are going to oppose your view, thereby eliciting thoughtful and respectful responses, one can only hope. In the contemporary vernacular, you’ve got the mad chops, dude.
Peace,
Steven
B
brianwalden
Guest
Thanks Steve, I must admit the only reason I could present the Church’s position so concisely is because of my own struggles and failures to live up to it.
B
Bob_Byrnes
Guest
Judging from the replies in this thread a homosexual would be a bit of a masochist to be a member of a formal Christian religion.
The Catholic church says homosexuals are fundamentally disordered( a bit of a stretch with my knowledge of homosexuals) and as such, if they are practicing homosexuality they are not welcome to receive Communion. The Church says they should attend Mass but not receive the Eucharist. That’s like inviting someone to your home for Thanksgiving but telling them they are not welcome at the table when you eat.It’s all about “rules, rules, rules” established by celibate males with unaccountable authority. Allowing celibate males to determine the rules of sexuality is like having non drivers establish all the rules of the road. It’s a bit absurd.
Of course a homosexual can be a good Christian,.He or she just can’t belong to a formal Christian religion without being judged and ridiculed.
The Catholic church says homosexuals are fundamentally disordered( a bit of a stretch with my knowledge of homosexuals) and as such, if they are practicing homosexuality they are not welcome to receive Communion. The Church says they should attend Mass but not receive the Eucharist. That’s like inviting someone to your home for Thanksgiving but telling them they are not welcome at the table when you eat.It’s all about “rules, rules, rules” established by celibate males with unaccountable authority. Allowing celibate males to determine the rules of sexuality is like having non drivers establish all the rules of the road. It’s a bit absurd.
Of course a homosexual can be a good Christian,.He or she just can’t belong to a formal Christian religion without being judged and ridiculed.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
I admire one with boldness of action.
Sin boldly. It shows sin for what it is, which is what we all need to see.
Thank you for sinning boldly.
When you say that it’s possible to be both a good Christian and a not-good Christian simultaneously, you prove your “danger” to those who are good Christians who could be scandalized, and those who don’t know what being a good Christian is, and could draw the wrong conclusion based on “your understanding”.
You may not realize how dangersous you are, not to the Church, but to humanity at large, but I needn’t treat you as YOU would like me to treat you, so as not to “offend” you.
Best to you, and sin boldly, if you choose to sin.
(( CCC ))
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
B
brianwalden
Guest
Emphasis Mine. Bob, by your own logic why should you, a non-Catholic (at least by your beliefs if not formally), determine whether Catholic beliefs are right or wrong?
L
latinmasslover
Guest
Nobody who openly lives a life of sin (as in not trying to overcome it) cannot call themself a Christian, period. “Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” This is what we have to strive for. I cannot understand how “Christians” try to justify the homosexual lifestyle. As someone said earlier, this applies not only to homosexuals but heterosexuals who commit adultery and fornication. Serious sin is mortal when committed (knowing it is seriously sinful) and to try to justify it is demonic.
We should definitely pray for them, and hard. There’s a friend of the family who’s homosexual and he now lives a celibate lifestyle. He knows it’s wrong and that’s enough for him, Deo Gratias! Even so, I’m sure he still finds it difficult at times.
Lord have mercy!
L
latinmasslover
Guest
A homosexual needs prayer and help to live a celibate lifestyle. A homosexual can be a good Christian, but they can’t voluntarily live in sin. Everybody has their crosses. A certain person I know cheats. Even when he’s in a good relationship, a relationship he’s happy with, he cheats. Some people drink too much, eat too much. I myself am prone to fight. I grew up a military brat; being Daddy’s Little Girl I always looked up to him, and he was a fighter (not a brawler, but never let people walk on him). I got hassled in school once by anther girl and Dad gave me permission to send her to the hospital. Legal loopholes would’ve saved my rearend so that wasn’t a problem. It’s an urge I still have to fight. My sister loves sex, my brother loves to mouth off…if we don’t try to overcome these we are not good Christians. Just as a parent doesn’t reward a child for bad behavior, neither does God.
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