Can a protestant church be called a church?

[JulianN]

That isn’t my argument. I’m not saying that the Eucharist is not required to be reserved in a Catholic Church—but that canon does not say that’s what defines a church.

 

[BohemianBrother]

I think the Lutherans, for example, use a different definition (the place where the Word is preached and Sacraments rightly administered).

In fact those who use your definition most often call their places of worship “assembly hall” or such.

This whole debate seems like a pedantic wordplay to me. A lowercase ‘c’ church is an architectural style of buildings, which follows certain rules. You can point out ‘churches’ simply by appearance, that’s the way of giving directions. In my language, a church and a Church are totally different words.

If you think you deny your Lord by using ‘church’ for a protestant worship building, then find a substitute. Otherwise if someone says it, just for convenience, it’s certainly no time for arguing. It simply does not seem charitable to argue with your fellow Christian when you both well know the meaning of what you said.

 

[FossilResin]

As to your relative, he will have a hard time following directions if people are not allowed to describe landmarks. Perhaps you could recommend that he get a gps system if he will not allow people to help him find his way.

So laughably true.

 

[FossilResin]

Then there’s the Satanic “temple” like the one that held a black “mass” in Houston last week.

Take heart, Friend. Anytime self-identified actual Satanists perform their filth and mockingly call it a “mass”, they absolutely vindicate us as Catholic Christians, and they know it. They don’t go around calling their filth “Satanic community worship services with coffee and bagels” because Satan isn’t threatened by that. They’re just making our job easier.

 

[FossilResin]

Let us Catholics be the Great Unwashed of good humor and humility who also refuse to have all our sacred language intentionally overhauled, which is different from natural linguistic drift over generations of common usage.

 

[De_Maria]

That isn’t my argument. I’m not saying that the Eucharist is not required to be reserved in a Catholic Church—but that canon does not say that’s what defines a church.

And that matters, why? Did I claim that “church” was defined in canon law? I’m giving you the reasons why we don’t consider Protestant buildings to be “churches”. And, also, why many Protestants don’t even consider the buildings in which they gather, to be churches.

 

[De_Maria]

I think the Lutherans, for example, use a different definition (the place where the Word is preached and Sacraments rightly administered).

In fact those who use your definition most often call their places of worship “assembly hall” or such.

This whole debate seems like a pedantic wordplay to me. A lowercase ‘c’ church is an architectural style of buildings, which follows certain rules. You can point out ‘churches’ simply by appearance, that’s the way of giving directions. In my language, a church and a Church are totally different words.

If you think you deny your Lord by using ‘church’ for a protestant worship building, then find a substitute. …

It’s not a matter of denying the Lord. It’s a matter of using precise language. And, by the way, you’re right. Many Protestants refer to their worship space as “assembly hall” and things like that. So, we have Protestants and others on this thread, putting Catholics in a no win situation.

If we call it a church, those who deny it, complain.
If we don’t call it a church, the others complain.

It reminds me of the Scripture:

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

[De_Maria]

catholic03:

I haven’t read all the posts, but here’s what the Church teaches. You may refer to a Protestant church building as a ‘church’ (lowercase ‘c’). However, Protestants are not part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church so you cannot properly call a Protestant organisation, or Protestant ism as a whole, a ‘Church’.

The correct term is ecclesial community.

Well take the time to read post #33 by Ammi who kindly quoted the CCC which uses a capital letter in the word Churches. Not sure you are well informed.

8d

CCC
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements, Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

The word “Churches” is a reference to the Orthodox, Coptic and other sacramental communions…
The phrase “ecclesial communities” is reference to other non-Catholic Christian communities.

 

[JulianN]

And that matters, why? Did I claim that “church” was defined in canon law? I’m giving you the reasons why we don’t consider Protestant buildings to be “churches”.

And I’m giving you the reason we can call the building a church even if the group is an ecclesial community.

 

[tgGodsway]

“Up in arms?” naaa… not really. Most non-Catholic, Christian churches have almost no thoughts about what you think or say about our buildings. We’re too busy answering the call to be the Church and do what the Church was called to do: win the culture. Some do it in a store-front rental property or meet in a high school auditorium, while others will own a million dollar building. But I don’t know of even one person up in arms about what the CC says about it.

 

[De_Maria]

And I’m giving you the reason we can call the building a church even if the group is an ecclesial community.

More power to you. You can call a chicken a duck, if you want. Who can stop you?
But, it remains a “so-called church” and not a true church.

 

[JulianN]

More power to you. You can call a chicken a duck, if you want. Who can stop you?
But, it remains a “so-called church” and not a true church.

Well, I’m in good company.

For example, from the Vatican:

“ The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church[9] are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ. It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification …”

 

[De_Maria]

Well, I’m in good company.

For example, from the Vatican:

“ The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church[9] are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ. It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification …”

What does it mean when someone says, “so-called” about something? All you have done is prove that some do call them churches. As I do, on occasion. But they remain, “so-called”. The term “church” remains a misnomer when applied to protestant worship spaces.

Of course, if you can prove that this statement is infallible, you will have proven us wrong. Is that Joint Declaration, infallible?

edit: the Joint Declaration was not using the term “church” with reference to buildings.

 

[Hope1960]

Of course Protestant churches are churches.

 

[BohemianBrother]

The last two paragraphs were not aimed at you, sorry, I forgot to specify it.

For the purposes of giving directions, a church is a building, with features such as stained glass windows, an optional bell tower, a single large hall going through it. It usually stands alone and can very well be a dominant feature of a place. Here in Europe, it’s easy to navigate through rural areas by looking for churches. You generally don’t care what denomination they belong to for navigation.

If a place of worship doesn’t look like a typical church, then you specify it. For example: This is a baptist assembly hall, or this is a modern Catholic parish church.

I think you already know that Protestants aren’t a monolithic group. There’s absolutely no reason why a baptist should name anything the same way a lutheran would.

It’s a matter of common usage. Little children can point to a church if you ask them. If you specify what is and isn’t a ‘church’ based on some internal quality (the presence of the Lord), you unleash a wholly different and much worse debate. Let’s please define what a ‘church’ is using architectural descriptions, not theology. For the sake of navigation, simplicity and ease of communication.

 

[De_Maria]

“Up in arms?” naaa… not really. Most non-Catholic, Christian churches have almost no thoughts about what you think or say about our buildings.

You’re speaking for yourself. This is not the first time I’ve had a conversation about the meaning of “church”. And, there are many Protestants who rail against the idea that church is anything but the invisible church, the “called out”.

We’re too busy answering the call to be the Church and do what the Church was called to do: win the culture.

Again, you are speaking for yourself.

Some do it in a store-front rental property or meet in a high school auditorium, while others will own a million dollar building. But I don’t know of even one person up in arms about what the CC says about it.

So, you have never met any Protestants who claim that the term church is only to be applied to the “called out”? And yes, they do get up in arms when I explain to them the different uses of the term in Scripture. But, you have your experience and I have mine.

 

[tgGodsway]

You’re speaking for yourself. This is not the first time I’ve had a conversation about the meaning of “church”. And, there are many Protestants who rail against the idea that church is anything but the invisible church, the “called out”.

Well, what few protestants I know, have never brought it up. I guess that’s why they refer themselves as protestants. Makes sense.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, what few protestants I know, have never brought it up.

That makes sense. They probably wouldn’t bring it up, with you. But, I go out of my way to talk to Protestants who can be described as anti-Catholic. And I debate with them about every topic where they disagree with Catholic Teaching. The topic of the True Church and the visible Church frequently comes up. This particular question falls within that topic very frequently.

I guess that’s why they refer themselves as protestants. Makes sense.

Yep.

 

[tgGodsway]

So, you have never met any Protestants who claim that the term church is only to be applied to the “called out”?

I don’t know of any protestant at all who makes that claim. The word ONLY may be the key word. Most Evangelicals understand that the Church is both a living organism as well as a body of order. I don’t know of any who say otherwise.

 

[tgGodsway]

That makes sense. They probably wouldn’t bring it up, with you. But, I go out of my way to talk to Protestants who can be described as anti-Catholic. And I debate with them about every topic where they disagree with Catholic Teaching. The topic of the True Church and the visible Church frequently comes up. This particular question falls within that topic very frequently.

Yes I hear you but where I come from, we don’t even use these terms. My brothers and sisters in Christ have no protest to offer you. But I guess that’s because there isn’t anyone trying to impose upon them with the Catholic way. I imagine if this was the case, you’d get a protest out of them, at least from those who even know anything about the protestant reformation in the first place.
I’ve never personally met an anti-Catholic protestant. I am amazed at such a thought.