Can a protestant tell me what this is from and what its talking about

[ignatius777]

Via temporal punishment of you, yes? And with all due respect, Trent sees it as an avenging punishment as well. Can you tell me what this is from?

"…the satisfaction imposed by them [temporal punishments] is meant not merely as a safeguard for the new life and as a remedy to weakness, but also as vindicatory (i.e. avenging) punishment for former sins.”

Give you a hint; it’s Trent.

Well, it’s really a bit less like becoming impure and more like starting impure and having no way of becoming pure aside from divine intervention.

Purification and temporal punishment are not synonymous. I can see why you’d jump from temporal punishment to purification given your background, but that isn’t what Protestants do with it when it comes up in places like this. Nor is it what we’re meant to do.

Iow, if you’re keeping a list of reasons that Protestants believe temporal punishment happens and reasons that Protestants reject, “purification” goes in the reject pile. In the sense that you’re using it, at least.

It would be awesome if you just stopped there.

Oh boy.

Which, according to Protestantism, is non-existent. Nor is it implied by the mention of the words “temporal punishment,” whose purpose is neither vindictive nor avenging nor purifying nor debt-pleasing nor “for satisfaction” nor a restitution.

What does it mean when someone is vindicated? You can focus on the second definition if you wish but thats not how Trent used the word.

So if sin doesnt have to be corrected we can sin with (name removed by moderator)unity because its all covered by the death of Jesus, right? I can do whatever I wish and I am getting to heaven correct?

 

[ignatius777]

This is one of the main doctrinal changes made during the Reformation. The idea was conceived that sin no longer separates mankind from God. Jesus paid the price, and reconciled mankind to God. He paid for all the sins, past, present, and future. He “made it right” in his body on the cross.

You are right but according to Reformed theology, we are declared clean by God when we are saved (even though we are not actually clean). We are “hidden with Christ in God”, so our own personal cleanliness is not an issue anymore. We are snow covered dungheaps.

We are purified by His blood -His sacrifiice, so His purity is all that is needed.

The “idea was conceived”??? Really? I have never before seen someone so clearly admit that the “idea was conceived” for protestantism. Conceived by whom? Conceived from what?

So protestants believe there are dungheaps in heaven? WOW!

 

[guanophore]

The problem is no where does sola fide work

Well, that is the whole point, isn’t it?

Titus 3:4-5
5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy

and nor is it supported anywhere

But of course it is! All the Reformers supported it, and the Scriptures can be used to support a great variety of heresies, as can be clearly seen in the writings of the Early Fathers. Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism, all early heresies espoused by those using the Scripture to support their views.

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

So if sin doesnt have to be corrected we can sin with (name removed by moderator)unity because its all covered by the death of Jesus, right?

Ps 32:2
2 Happy are those to whom the LORD imputes no iniquity,

Rom 4:3-8
3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”

The Apostle Paul uses the language of accounting here to explain that God has imputed/accounted righteousness to us through faith.

I can do whatever I wish and I am getting to heaven correct?

This is a modern twisting of the Reformed doctrine. All the Reformers believed that we are to obey God, that it is our duty, but also out of gratitude and love for being freed from sin, we are to follow His commandments. This is why the Church has published a document that shows agreement with the “faith alone” theology of Luther. If by “faith alone” one means obedient faith, faith that works, then Catholics also beleive we are saved by faith alone.

 

[guanophore]

The “idea was conceived”??? Really? I have never before seen someone so clearly admit that the “idea was conceived” for protestantism.

All heresies are conceived by the mind of man, though their creative force may be from a much darker place.

You will not hear Protestants admit this, by and large, they will say that this is what was taught by the Apostles, and what is found in the scriptures.

Conceived by whom? Conceived from what?

The notion of eternal security was spawned by John Calvin, one of the major reformers. It was conceived as a reaction against corrupt clerics in his region who were bent on trying to convince the flock that they had to buy their way into heaven by obedience (doing whatever they were told by the priest) and giving material goods (greed). They were looking for a more pure Christianity - one that better reflected what they were reading in the NT.

So protestants believe there are dungheaps in heaven? WOW!

There are many Protestant theologies, with their roots in Calvanism, that believe it is not possible for human beings to be actually made fit to enter heaven. Some also believe it is impossible for humans to avoid sin (sin is inevitable as long as we are in these mortal bodies).

 

[ignatius777]

Well, that is the whole point, isn’t it?

Titus 3:4-5
5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy

But of course it is! All the Reformers supported it, and the Scriptures can be used to support a great variety of heresies, as can be clearly seen in the writings of the Early Fathers. Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism, all early heresies espoused by those using the Scripture to support their views.

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ps 32:2
2 Happy are those to whom the LORD imputes no iniquity,

Rom 4:3-8
3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”

The Apostle Paul uses the language of accounting here to explain that God has imputed/accounted righteousness to us through faith.

This is a modern twisting of the Reformed doctrine. All the Reformers believed that we are to obey God, that it is our duty, but also out of gratitude and love for being freed from sin, we are to follow His commandments. This is why the Church has published a document that shows agreement with the “faith alone” theology of Luther. If by “faith alone” one means obedient faith, faith that works, then Catholics also beleive we are saved by faith alone.

Why does Paul tell us he works out his salvation with fear and trembling?

There is no twisting. Here is the non catholic rationale. I am saved through my faith in Jesus and His death pays for all my sins past present and future. Now according to that I could sin at will and I cant lose my salvation nor can I give it back so no matter what I am going to heaven. OK but they cant say do as you please so now it becomes I wouldnt want to sin once one I am saved and when asked are you no longer are sinner once you are saved they say of course because we continue to sin, otherwise there’d be no reason to be forgiven of sins past present and future.

 

[guanophore]

Why does Paul tell us he works out his salvation with fear and trembling?

Because the Aposltes taught that our salvation is not completed in this life. There are elements that are completed, elements that are being worked out (our sanctification) and elements that are yet to come.

Phil 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

There is a big difference between working “out” and working “on”. There is nothing that we can do to pay our debt to God, or to save ourselves. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our works of righteousness, lest we boast.

What we are working “out” is what has been placed in us at baptism by grace. It is God in us enabling us to work for His pleasure, not we ourselves. We cooperate with His grace to become the persons He has made us to be.

There is no twisting.

Maybe you have not been here long enough? I have seen plenty of it.

Here is the non catholic rationale. I am saved through my faith in Jesus and His death pays for all my sins past present and future. Now according to that I could sin at will and I cant lose my salvation nor can I give it back so no matter what I am going to heaven.

This is not a fair assessment, nor accurate one. On the contrary, the vast majority of non-Catholics do NOT believe in cheap grace (being saved without walking with God). This is a modern American Evangelical twist that does not have historical precedent. None of the Reformers believed or taught this.

OK but they cant say do as you please so now it becomes I wouldnt want to sin once one I am saved and when asked are you no longer are sinner once you are saved they say of course because we continue to sin, otherwise there’d be no reason to be forgiven of sins past present and future.

This is how a “true” believer is distinguished from a “false” believer. They say that “true” believers no longer want to sin, are convicted in conscience to repent quickly, and desire to obey God out of love and gratitude for what He has done for them.

 

[ignatius777]

Because the Aposltes taught that our salvation is not completed in this life. There are elements that are completed, elements that are being worked out (our sanctification) and elements that are yet to come.

Phil 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

There is a big difference between working “out” and working “on”. There is nothing that we can do to pay our debt to God, or to save ourselves. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our works of righteousness, lest we boast.

What we are working “out” is what has been placed in us at baptism by grace. It is God in us enabling us to work for His pleasure, not we ourselves. We cooperate with His grace to become the persons He has made us to be.

Maybe you have not been here long enough? I have seen plenty of it.

This is not a fair assessment, nor accurate one. On the contrary, the vast majority of non-Catholics do NOT believe in cheap grace (being saved without walking with God). This is a modern American Evangelical twist that does not have historical precedent. None of the Reformers believed or taught this.

This is how a “true” believer is distinguished from a “false” believer. They say that “true” believers no longer want to sin, are convicted in conscience to repent quickly, and desire to obey God out of love and gratitude for what He has done for them.

I have been on this site and others like it and CAF is a wonderful place where people can actually debate.

 

[guanophore]

I have been on this site and others like it and CAF is a wonderful place where people can actually debate.

I agree, but I am amazed you would say there is “no twisting” of the Scriptures. It seems to me that hit happens every day here.

 

[ignatius777]

I agree, but I am amazed you would say there is “no twisting” of the Scriptures. It seems to me that hit happens every day here.

I think I might have misread your comments. I was saying I wasnt twisting scrpture

 

[JonNC]

This is a modern twisting of the Reformed doctrine. All the Reformers believed that we are to obey God, that it is our duty, but also out of gratitude and love for being freed from sin, we are to follow His commandments. This is why the Church has published a document that shows agreement with the “faith alone” theology of Luther. If by “faith alone” one means obedient faith, faith that works, then Catholics also beleive we are saved by faith alone.

guano,
Whenever I see you name on a thread, I am drawn to at least lurk.

Thanks for mentioning this.

From Luther’s preface to Galatians 5:6

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

And from the Formula of Concord:

Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

This is sola fide!! The Calvinist Perseverance of Saints is not sola fide!

Jon

 

[ignatius777]

guano,
Whenever I see you name on a thread, I am drawn to at least lurk.

Thanks for mentioning this.

From Luther’s preface to Galatians 5:6

And from the Formula of Concord:

This is sola fide!! The Calvinist Perseverance of Saints is not sola fide!

Jon

With all due respect how can sola fide rule the day if you agree that faith without works is dead. A dead faith cant save anyone so you cant say works have no place in salvation. Its like saying you only want the “heads” side of quarters.

 

[guanophore]

guano,
Whenever I see you name on a thread, I am drawn to at least lurk.

Thanks for mentioning this.

From Luther’s preface to Galatians 5:6

And from the Formula of Concord:

This is sola fide!! The Calvinist Perseverance of Saints is not sola fide!

Jon

Indeed, Luther was quite put out with Calvin over a number of abberancies, this being one of them.

Welcome to the thread, Jon!

Yet, even Calvin believed that true believers would, and should, obey God, despite his eternal security perspective. He had no use for those who did not do so, and some of those who dissented were put to death under him just as much as they were under the Catholics.

 

[JonNC]

With all due respect how can sola fide rule the day if you agree that faith without works is dead. A dead faith cant save anyone so you cant say works have no place in salvation. Its like saying you only want the “heads” side of quarters.

So, what is a dead faith? It is a faith that does not work. By grace through faith in Christ Jesus we are justified, and not by our own works. But our recognition of grace, which comes by faith, makes it clear that we are to follow to follow His commands, to help the least of His children, to do for our fellowman the works He has prepared for us to do. He also makes available for us and calls us participate in the means of grace - hearing the word and receiving the scaraments - to strengthen us in our faith (sanctification).

Do our works save us? No. Grace, through faith in Christ, saves us. But a true, living, saving faith is a faith that works.

guanophore said it well a few posts back:
*There is a big difference between working “out” and working “on”. **There is nothing that we can do to pay our debt to God, or to save ourselves. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our works of righteousness, lest we boast.*What we are working “out” is what has been placed in us at baptism by grace. It is God in us enabling us to work for His pleasure, not we ourselves. We cooperate with His grace to become the persons He has made us to be.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Yet, even Calvin believed that true believers would, and should, obey God, despite his eternal security perspective. He had no use for those who did not do so, and some of those who dissented were put to death under him just as much as they were under the Catholics.

I believe you are correct. Calvin would have had no time for what appears to be a twisting of Perseverance of Saints into “Once Saved Always Saved”, and the notion by some that one need not work.

Jon

 

[ignatius777]

So, what is a dead faith? It is a faith that does not work. By grace through faith in Christ Jesus we are justified, and not by our own works. But our recognition of grace, which comes by faith, makes it clear that we are to follow to follow His commands, to help the least of His children, to do for our fellowman the works He has prepared for us to do. He also makes available for us and calls us participate in the means of grace - hearing the word and receiving the scaraments - to strengthen us in our faith (sanctification).

Do our works save us? No. Grace, through faith in Christ, saves us. But a true, living, saving faith is a faith that works.

guanophore said it well a few posts back:
*There is a big difference between working “out” and working “on”. **There is nothing that we can do to pay our debt to God, or to save ourselves. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our works of righteousness, lest we boast.***What we are working “out” is what has been placed in us at baptism by grace. It is God in us enabling us to work for His pleasure, not we ourselves. We cooperate with His grace to become the persons He has made us to be.

Jon

A dead faith is a faith that is void of works. Faith ALONE is just that ALONE. How can faith be ALONE if its connected to works? If faith ALONE is sufficient for salvation then works are not necessary but that doesnt square with scripture does it? There are plenty of people in the world who do wonderful things for other people but have no faith in Jesus, will they be saved? And conversely there are plenty of people with faith in Jesus and do nothing nice for anyone, will they be saved? And please dont tell me tthat if they had real faith then works would flow from them. That would require a belief that ALL people with faith do good works. I dont think anyone could claim that with a straight face.

The error for some is that if you believe works are necessary, not sufficient, but necessary for salvation then you must be discounting faith. Thats just not the case

 

[pismopal]

A dead faith is a faith that is void of works. Faith ALONE is just that ALONE. How can faith be ALONE if its connected to works? If faith ALONE is sufficient for salvation then works are not necessary but that doesnt square with scripture does it? There are plenty of people in the world who do wonderful things for other people but have no faith in Jesus, will they be saved? And conversely there are plenty of people with faith in Jesus and do nothing nice for anyone, will they be saved? And please dont tell me tthat if they had real faith then works would flow from them. That would require a belief that ALL people with faith do good works. I dont think anyone could claim that with a straight face.

The error for some is that if you believe works are necessary, not sufficient, but necessary for salvation then you must be discounting faith. Thats just not the case

When a believer…someone who has “faith in Jesus”, prays for others…is this not something prompted by that faith…“a nice thing” and within the meaning of a “work”? If a non believer builds a bridge across a river so that people on the other side can more easily live their lives…is this a “work”? Would not every word of encouragement for others spoken by a believer, be a work? …I happen to think so

 

[JonNC]

=ignatius777;7467778]A dead faith is a faith that is void of works. Faith ALONE is just that ALONE. How can faith be ALONE if its connected to works? If faith ALONE is sufficient for salvation then works are not necessary but that doesnt square with scripture does it?

You are missing the point of sola fide, Faith Alone. Faith alone justifies, but faith is itself never alone, at least not a saving faith. But faith is not “connected” to works. Charity is an integral part of faith. Faith is much more than an intellectual activity. Faith must be active, being the hands of the Holy Spirit, doing His goods works that are within us, only because of grace.
When a Catholic says “faith and works” saves, I cannot agree with that. When a Catholic says, “faith working through love” saves, then I say Amen.

There are plenty of people in the world who do wonderful things for other people but have no faith in Jesus, will they be saved? And conversely there are plenty of people with faith in Jesus and do nothing nice for anyone, will they be saved?

These aren’t questions I can clearly answer, because God makes that determination

And please dont tell me tthat if they had real faith then works would flow from them. That would require a belief that ALL people with faith do good works. I dont think anyone could claim that with a straight face.

If one does not obey the commands of Christ, you and I both would call that sin. Would we not? Is it also not true that repeated, and unrepented sin leads to a loss of faith?
So, even a person with a true faith, who then chooses to ignore the commands of Christ, and by his free will rejects Christ and grace, is in jeopardy of losing faith. Galatians tells us that a saving faith is a faith working in love.

We all fail to do what Christ commands. The Lutheran Confessions recognize this when it says: *Although this voluntariness [liberty of spirit] in the elect children of God is not perfect, but burdened with great weakness, as St. Paul complains concerning himself, Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:17; *

Sin interferes with our desire to obey His commands. But the Holy Spirit is there to guide and strengthen us, through Confession/Absolution, and the Eucharist, as well as hearing the word. So, when we confess our sins and weaknesses, God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again, the Confessions:
*Nevertheless, for the sake of the Lord Christ, the Lord does not impute this weakness to His elect, as it is written: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Rom. 8:1. *

The error for some is that if you believe works are necessary, not sufficient, but necessary for salvation then you must be discounting faith. Thats just not the case

Agreed. But not “necessary” in terms of adding to the work of Christ. Works cannot, do not save. Grace alone through faith in Christ saves.
Jon

 

[ignatius777]

You are missing the point of sola fide, Faith Alone. Faith alone justifies, but faith is itself never alone, at least not a saving faith. But faith is not “connected” to works. Charity is an integral part of faith. Faith is much more than an intellectual activity. Faith must be active, being the hands of the Holy Spirit, doing His goods works that are within us, only because of grace.
When a Catholic says “faith and works” saves, I cannot agree with that. When a Catholic says, “faith working through love” saves, then I say Amen.

These aren’t questions I can clearly answer, because God makes that determination

If one does not obey the commands of Christ, you and I both would call that sin. Would we not? Is it also not true that repeated, and unrepented sin leads to a loss of faith?
So, even a person with a true faith, who then chooses to ignore the commands of Christ, and by his free will rejects Christ and grace, is in jeopardy of losing faith. Galatians tells us that a saving faith is a faith working in love.

We all fail to do what Christ commands. The Lutheran Confessions recognize this when it says: *Although this voluntariness [liberty of spirit] in the elect children of God is not perfect, but burdened with great weakness, as St. Paul complains concerning himself, Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:17; *

Sin interferes with our desire to obey His commands. But the Holy Spirit is there to guide and strengthen us, through Confession/Absolution, and the Eucharist, as well as hearing the word. So, when we confess our sins and weaknesses, God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again, the Confessions:
*Nevertheless, for the sake of the Lord Christ, the Lord does not impute this weakness to His elect, as it is written: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Rom. 8:1. *

Agreed.
Jon

If faith is never alone then how can faith alone save anyone? You say you cant agree wit thhe statement that faith AND works saves but could you agree with the statement that faith WITH works saves? So if someone were to say, "Jon AND Ignatius are talking " would that be different then saying, "Jon is talking WITH Ignatius? "

 

[JonNC]

If faith is never alone then how can faith alone save anyone? You say you cant agree wit thhe statement that faith AND works saves but could you agree with the statement that faith WITH works saves? So if someone were to say, "Jon AND Ignatius are talking " would that be different then saying, "Jon is talking WITH Ignatius? "

I say I can’t agree with “faith and works” because the statement, for me, implies that my works on an equal footing with Christ’s work. It says what I do makes salvation possible. Now, that might not be the Catholic teaching, but just as you are having difficulty in seeing what I mean when I say faith “alone”, I have difficulty in seeing how a Catholic can say “faith and works” on those grounds.

But when a Catholic says faith working through love, there is an understanding that charity must be part of faith. It isn’t in addition to faith, or next to faith. Here is what Pope Benedict said:

That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; **hence, to believe is to be conformed to Christ and to enter into his love. That is why, in the Letter to the Galatians, St. Paul develops above all his doctrine on justification; he speaks of faith that operates through charity **(cf. Galatians 5:14).Paul knows that in the double love of God and neighbor the whole law is fulfilled. Thus the whole law is observed in communion with Christ, in faith that creates charity. We are just when we enter into communion with Christ, who is love….

Jon

 

[ignatius777]

I say I can’t agree with “faith and works” because the statement, for me, implies that my works on an equal footing with Christ’s work. It says what I do makes salvation possible. Now, that might not be the Catholic teaching, but just as you are having difficulty in seeing what I mean when I say faith “alone”, I have difficulty in seeing how a Catholic can say “faith and works” on those grounds.

But when a Catholic says faith working through love, there is an understanding that charity must be part of faith. It isn’t in addition to faith, or next to faith. Here is what Pope Benedict said:

Jon

No one is suggesting that our works are on the same par as Christ’s work but your work does make salvation possible because we all agree that faith without (ALONE) works is dead. A dead faith saves no one.

From my understanding of “faith alone” as protestants seem to explain it to me the phrase should be changed to “faith first” because, in my opinion, “faith alone” doesnt sum up what protestants seem to believe.