Can a protestant tell me what this is from and what its talking about

[JonNC]

=ignatius777;7467951]No one is suggesting that our works are on the same par as Christ’s work but your work does make salvation possible because we all agree that faith without (ALONE) works is dead. A dead faith saves no one.

Perhaps it might make more sense for you were I to call it a formed faith - a faith that encompasses love, charity, and hope, a faith that is obedient to Christ’s commands, that loves God above all else, and our neighbors as ourselves.
But I wouldn’t say that works makes salvation possible. That is already achieved by the work of Christ. Works are our response to His saving grace, done out of joyful obedience to the one who has made our salvation possible.

From my understanding of “faith alone” as protestants seem to explain it to me the phrase should be changed to “faith first” because, in my opinion, “faith alone” doesnt sum up what protestants seem to believe.

I like to quote the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in these discussions:

In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

 

[ignatius777]

Perhaps it might make more sense for you were I to call it a formed faith - a faith that encompasses love, charity, and hope, a faith that is obedient to Christ’s commands, that loves God above all else, and our neighbors as ourselves.
But I wouldn’t say that works makes salvation possible. That is already achieved by the work of Christ. Works are our response to His saving grace, done out of joyful obedience to the one who has made our salvation possible.

I like to quote the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in these discussions:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

A faith that doesnt adhere to Christ’s commands can not save anyone can it? I dont care what we call it. What did Jesus command us to do? If we dont DO as Jesus commands we have no faith that will save us.

I will say this again doing works without faith that Jesus died for our sins is as dead as a faith that is void of the deeds Jesus command us to perform.

 

[ignatius777]

Perhaps it might make more sense for you were I to call it a formed faith - a faith that encompasses love, charity, and hope, a faith that is obedient to Christ’s commands, that loves God above all else, and our neighbors as ourselves.
But I wouldn’t say that works makes salvation possible. That is already achieved by the work of Christ. Works are our response to His saving grace, done out of joyful obedience to the one who has made our salvation possible.

I like to quote the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in these discussions:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

Please notice “…through Christ alone…” not faith alone.

 

[JonNC]

A faith that doesnt adhere to Christ’s commands can not save anyone can it? I dont care what we call it. What did Jesus command us to do? If we dont DO as Jesus commands we have no faith that will save us.

I will say this again doing works without faith that Jesus died for our sins is as dead as a faith that is void of the deeds Jesus command us to perform.

And I agree on both counts.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of
God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire!

-Luther

Jon

 

[Protestant101]

With all due respect you see it at “avenging” punishment. Sin seperates us from God and must be made right. Sin makes us impure and nothing impur can enter heaven. Purification must take place before siful man can enter heaven. We are saved from hell y Jesus death but when we enter heaven is duein part to the time necessary for purification as a result of the sin ofo ur free will

“Purification” does not take place in purgatory though; if this is where you are headed. There is no such place. God deals with the here and now, and purifies His saints while they are living, “for the dead know not anything.” (Eccl 9:4-5)

 

[Protestant101]

And I agree on both counts.

     Jon

Why then, does your church disregard the fourth commandment?

 

[Protestant101]

Actually, you DO believe in purgatory, you just don’t call it that. And many Protestants have such a warped perception of Catholicism that they don’t even know what is understood by Purgatory.

Purgatory is the state of being cleansed from the temporal consequences of one’s sins. I say that all Protestants believe this because they also accept the Apostolic Teaching that “nothing unclean can enter heaven”. For that reason, everything that is not sanctified in this life must be purged/cleansed before we get to heaven. They think of it more like the “putting on of a garment” (instantaneous).

Some Protestants actually have an excellent understanding of this doctrine re “purgatory,” and it’s not just a matter of us calling it something different. As with many Catholic beliefs, we genuinely do see it differently. It is well known that Catholics and Protestants can say the very same words, yet mean very different things.

 

[ignatius777]

When a believer…someone who has “faith in Jesus”, prays for others…is this not something prompted by that faith…“a nice thing” and within the meaning of a “work”? If a non believer builds a bridge across a river so that people on the other side can more easily live their lives…is this a “work”? Would not every word of encouragement for others spoken by a believer, be a work? …I happen to think so

I am not entirely sure what you are getting at but as for the non-believer there are many who would say that without faith they have no salvation no matter how many goods works they perform and I cant argue very fervently against that.

 

[ignatius777]

And I agree on both counts.

     -Luther

Jon

So if we cant seperate works from faith then faith alone cant save us. AMEN

 

[Publisher]

As I understand “eternal security” or “perseverance of the saints” it is rooted in the absolute soverignty of God. God decides whom He will save and whom He will not. If he chooses you to be “saved”…you’re saved and nothing can be done about it.

If one lives a life of sin God may remove one from the world to prevent the “saved one” from being a stumbling block.

 

[pismopal]

I am not entirely sure what you are getting at but as for the non-believer there are many who would say that without faith they have no salvation no matter how many goods works they perform and I cant argue very fervently against that.

My main idea…perhaps not well expressed is that works are not always involving money or tangible items. A work is something positive… motivated by your Christian faith…nothing more.

 

[ignatius777]

My main idea…perhaps not well expressed is that works are not always involving money or tangible items. A work is something positive… motivated by your Christian faith…nothing more.

Thats fine and I dont believe I defined works as involving money or tangible items. The question for protestants is, as a catholic is Mother Theresa saved? Would she be saved if she did the same things but was an athiest?

 

[ignatius777]

As I understand “eternal security” or “perseverance of the saints” it is rooted in the absolute soverignty of God. God decides whom He will save and whom He will not. If he chooses you to be “saved”…you’re saved and nothing can be done about it.

If one lives a life of sin God may remove one from the world to prevent the “saved one” from being a stumbling block.

I understand it but none of it makes any sense at all. If as some claim they are “elected” and nothing can change it there is no need to “persevere” or work out ones salvation with fear and trembling as Paul suggests. None of it makes sense when you apply some simple logic to the thought process of some beliefs.

 

[ignatius777]

“Purification” does not take place in purgatory though; if this is where you are headed. There is no such place. God deals with the here and now, and purifies His saints while they are living, “for the dead know not anything.” (Eccl 9:4-5)

So where does Jesus go when he proclaims to those “imprisoned souls”? What could He possibly proclaim to those banished to hell? They already know that. How can you be “purified” before the full extent of your sins are revealed?

 

[Augsburg1530]

I understand it but none of it makes any sense at all. If as some claim they are “elected” and nothing can change it there is no need to “persevere” or work out ones salvation with fear and trembling as Paul suggests. None of it makes sense when you apply some simple logic to the thought process of some beliefs.

I don’t agree with the Reformed understanding of perseverance, however, the above is a bit of a caricature. The Reformed would not argue that election is a bare bones deal wherein the person just gets saved and sits on the couch until they die. They do hold that perseverance works through means. The sacraments/ordinances, good works, repentance, etc.

 

[Augsburg1530]

Thats fine and I dont believe I defined works as involving money or tangible items. The question for protestants is, as a catholic is Mother Theresa saved? Would she be saved if she did the same things but was an athiest?

I have no reason to doubt she was saved. No, she wouldn’t have been had she been an atheist.

 

[Augsburg1530]

A faith that doesnt adhere to Christ’s commands can not save anyone can it? I dont care what we call it. What did Jesus command us to do? If we dont DO as Jesus commands we have no faith that will save us.

I will say this again doing works without faith that Jesus died for our sins is as dead as a faith that is void of the deeds Jesus command us to perform.

That isn’t an issue because it has never been our contention that true faith does not produce works. The problem is that Roman Catholicism teaches that works merit the progressive grace of justification.

We simply argue that the only reason good works are good works is because the Christian is already fully justified. You cannot produce good fruit unless the root is good.

 

[JonNC]

Why then, does your church disregard the fourth commandment?

The Fourth Commandment.

Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother [that it may be well with thee and thou mayest live long upon the earth].

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not despise nor anger our parents and masters, but give them honor, serve, obey, and hold them in love and esteem.

The Small Catechism

I’m not sure what you mean.

Jon

EDIT: OK, I made the connection, 101. You are talking about Remember the Sabbath, which we Lutherans number as the Third. Sorry.

First, I reject totally the charge that we “disregard the commandment”.

Luther, in the Large Catechism, goes into great detail. Just a snippet here:

The Third Commandment.
78] Thou shalt sanctify the holy day. [Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.]
79] The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath]. 80] Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.

82] This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.

83] But to grasp a Christian meaning for the simple as to what God requires in this commandment, note that we keep holy days not for the sake of intelligent and learned Christians (for they have no need of it [holy days]), but first of all for bodily causes and necessities, which nature teaches and requires; for the common people, man-servants and maid-servants, who have been attending to their work and trade the whole week, that for a day they may retire in order to rest and be refreshed.

84] Secondly, and most especially, that on such day of rest (since we can get no other opportunity) freedom and time be taken to attend divine service, so that we come together to hear and treat of God’s Word, and then to praise God, to sing and pray.

85] However, this, I say, is not so restricted to any time, as with the Jews, that it must be just on this or that day; for in itself no one day is better than another; but this should indeed be done daily; however, since the masses cannot give such attendance, there must be at least one day in the week set apart. But since from of old Sunday [the Lord’s Day] has been appointed for this purpose, we also should continue the same, in order that everything be done in harmonious order, and no one create disorder by unnecessary innovation.

86] Therefore this is the simple meaning of the commandment: since holidays are observed anyhow, such observance should be devoted to hearing God’s Word, so that the special function of this day should be the ministry of the Word for the young and the mass of poor people; yet that the resting be not so strictly interpreted as to forbid any other incidental work that cannot be avoided.

87] Accordingly, when asked, What is meant by the commandment: Thou shalt sanctify the holy day? answer: To sanctify the holy day is the same as to keep it holy. But what is meant by keeping it holy? Nothing else than to be occupied in holy words, works, and life. For the day needs no sanctification for itself; for in itself it has been created holy [from the beginning of the creation it was sanctified by its Creator]. But God desires it to be holy to you. Therefore it becomes holy or unholy on your account, according as you are occupied on the same with things that are holy or unholy.

bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I have no reason to doubt she was saved. No, she wouldn’t have been had she been an atheist.

Thanks, Augsburg, I missed that part of Ignatius’ question. I would go further and say it is exactly because she, as a Catholic Christian, had a active saving faith, as a result of Grace, that she was saved.

As for the “what if she were an atheist”, I would be less definitive and say that there is no reason here on Earth for us to believe she would have been, but would instead would not limit, rely on God’s mercy.

Jon

 

[ignatius777]

I have no reason to doubt she was saved. No, she wouldn’t have been had she been an atheist.

Its fantastic that we agree…faith and works saves while works or faith alone has no value. AMEN