Can a Religious offer the Extraordinary Form?

[GloriousOrder]

Friends , I just want to clarify something. My love for the Roman Missal in its 1962 incarnation has grown by many leaps and bounds lately. The majesty inherent in its presentation is simply beyond me (as Heaven should be). Looking at the state of things, however, one can see a variety of situations regarding the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

It seems that the use of the Form is so dead in regular dioceses that specific societies and fraternities have popped up to offer it exclusively. This wish to focus on only one half of the Roman liturgy allows the traditional institution to avoid getting bogged down in teaching both forms. Now, I am wondering if a priest of one of the pre-1962 Religious Orders can celebrate the Old Mass. Does he require permission to do so? Did Summorum Pontificum only apply to diocesan priests?

As an example: since the Dominican Order dropped the use of its Dominican Rite (13th century) and opted for the 1968 Roman Rite, does it follow that the Order is hostile to the 1962 Missal? I’m not sure who to ask; even if I did know who, I’d be afraid to come off as a stick-in-the-mud.

Here, I am referring to validly-ordained Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, and the rest.

 

[FCEGM]

I can’t speak for other Orders, but I know that the Mass in the Extraordinary Form is offered by a Discalced Carmelite Friar in California at one of the houses of the Order.

 

[OraLabora]

Some Benedictine houses offer it: Barroux, Fontgombault, Clear Creek, to name a few.

However in each individual monastery, the monk-priest is under obedience to an abbot. It is highly unlikely that the abbot will allow anything that could potentially affect the unity of the house. Those houses that do use the EF do so, I believe, with special permission, and use the EF exclusively. Barroux had a questionable status due to association with SSPX and Mgr Lefebvre, and was given canonical standing by Rome only in 1989 some time after the monastery split with the SSPX. Fontgombault uses the EF by the 1984 indult.

Of course many monasteries do celebrate the OF Mass in Latin and in Gregorian chant.

 

[white_sheep]

I can’t believe I’m going to say this. I think we should follow the Protestant’s lead in this matter and offer a traditional service, blended, and a contemporary service, instead of just contemporary all the time. That’s what they do around here anyway.

 

[GloriousOrder]

I can’t believe I’m going to say this. I think we should follow the Protestant’s lead in this matter and offer a traditional service, blended, and a contemporary service, instead of just contemporary all the time. That’s what they do around here anyway.

There doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with that. Why not offer the E.F. at 0 A.M. and the O.F. at 11 A.M.? Something more moderate is always something better.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

How about just following the Roman Missal? What’s wrong with that?

Besides, any form prior to 1964 is NOT sanctioned as even an extraordinary form.

Hate to tell you all, but there was a 2nd Vatican Council, and it made many changes. Isn’t it about time that some of the dissidents learn to live with those changes, instead of always fighting them?

While I bow to no person in my recollection and appreciation of the old Mass, the Gregorian Chant, etc., I also see the beauty, the majesty and above all the communication with the faithful of the new Mass. Under the old format, the vast majority of the congregation did not have a clue what was going on (and most still don’t. They couldn’t, and still can not, participate without burying their noses in a Missal, which blocks their actual participation in the worship process.

Latin is a dead language. Less than 1% of the population understands it well enough to actually follow a Mass, without reading it. If you have to read the Mass, how can you actually participate in the worship? You are just going through the motions. Yes, it’s beautiful (I loved singing those Masses with all my heart), but it is just an exercise if you really don’t know what is going on. You are opting to cling to a dead past, rather than actually participate in the divine worship.

I went to Latin Masses 7 days a week for many years. I knew the entire Ordinary of the Mass (both the Priest’s and the Servers part’s, with translations), and most of the Proper of the Mass too. I doubt if even one percent of the Catholics that attended those Masses even knew what the opening prayers meant, much less the rest of the Mass. And frankly, without a Missal, I doubt if the vast majority of those clamoring for a return could understand it either.

The Mass was first said in Aramaic, so if we really want to be traditional, lets all go back to an Aramaic version. That was after all, the language of Jesus and the Apostles. So, if we REALLY want to follow tradition, have a TRULY strong link with Jesus, then by rights we must go back to his language, and not use that of the people that murdered him!

If we want a Mass that actually communicates with the people however, we must utilize the vernacular. Just as the Tridentine Mass WAS the vernacular for any literate person when it was developed. You see, anyone with even a smattering of education (meaning anyone that was at all literate), used Latin as their written language. So, having the Mass in Latin made sense, back then.

It does not make any sense to have it in Latin today, except for very unusual circumstances.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It would depend on their Superior if they would allow them to celebrate it. Remember that the religious have given their lives to the Church and to their order and would have to follow what their Superior wants.

 

[OraLabora]

There doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with that. Why not offer the E.F. at 0 A.M. and the O.F. at 11 A.M.? Something more moderate is always something better.

Religious houses these only have one conventual Mass a day. Always have. In the past before concelebration was allowed, there would be private Masses in side chapels but still only one conventual Mass a day, and moreover the communities were divided between choir monks and lay brothers. Today they are all choir monks (except for the Carthusians who still, might, I believe, have lay brothers), though some are priests and some not.

There is often a very brief low Mass (as is the case at the abbey I’m affiliated with) very early in the morning (6 am in this case) for monks who have to work in the fields or be away on errands during the conventual Mass (11 am). There is really no room for two rites in a Benedictine house; the schedule is set up around the community’s needs, not those of the faithful who are visiting; you’re welcome to attend, but you’re not welcome to ask the community to alter its schedule in order to accommodate your wishes. Benedictines and Cistercians (and Carthusians, etc.) already have a full prayer day with 7 Offices a day (Vigils, Lauds, Terce, Sexte, None, Vespers and Compline and sometimes still, Prime) plus the conventual Mass. In between those times they have to keep the community, the abbey, running smoothly and there is much work to do.

Parishes are a different matter but one must still keep in mind the availability of priests and the need to often have them go to different parishes. It is far better to have a priest visiting a neighbouring parish with no resident priest to say Mass, than deprive that parish of Mass so a few can enjoy the EF Mass in their local church.

For other religious orders, folks here closer to them can comment on what would or would not be allowed.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

As for the Dominican’s and their attitude toward the Dominican Rite: they tend to be very welcoming of it in the Western and Eastern USA Provinces and us it occasionally in their parishes.

As previously stated the Benedictines in the Fontgombault Congregation (France and Clear Creek, OK) use the EF very often, almost exclusively.The Franciscans of the Immaculate use the EF and the OF regularly. And there is a group of Diocesan Rite Carmelite monks that use the Carmelite Rite.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Old Medic, I asked a specific question about permissions within Orders. You have no reason to list off the familiar litany of scandals. For my part, I wish to worship God in a Mass using Latin. You may do what you wish, but the glorious Church of Christ has deigned it right and just for our Roman Rite to be recognised as consisting of two equal forms. One is the ordinary form, it’s true, but the extraordinary quality of the old Mass does not disqualify it.

Please just answer my question, and don’t rip the thread’s purpose away from its original intent.

ConstantineTG, your answer is helpful. I’m just wondering about the atmosphere around Religious orders. Due to Summorum Pontificum, are superiors more likely to allow such a thing since 2007? This is more about psychology than canon law, I suppose.

As for the Dominican’s and their attitude toward the Dominican Rite: they tend to be very welcoming of it in the Western and Eastern USA Provinces and us it occasionally in their parishes.

Thank you very much, my friend. This was the shadow-reason for my thread. The other Orders don’t interest me as much as the Dominicans, so I need to establish their position on this matter. Naturally, since the O.F. is meant to be mostly in Latin and is not illicit if prayed ad orientem, the E.F. is not essential to my faith. We must do what is best for our natures, though, and I am a pompous person… “Grace builds upon nature”, as my patron said.

 

[OraLabora]

As for the Dominican’s and their attitude toward the Dominican Rite: they tend to be very welcoming of it in the Western and Eastern USA Provinces and us it occasionally in their parishes.

As previously stated the Benedictines in the Fontgombault Congregation (France and Clear Creek, OK) use the EF very often, almost exclusively.The Franciscans of the Immaculate use the EF and the OF regularly. And there is a group of Diocesan Rite Carmelite monks that use the Carmelite Rite.

There is no Fontgombault congregation. Fontgombault is part of the Solesmes congregation; Clear Creek is a foundation of Fontgombault but is also part of the Solesmes congregation.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

There is no Fontgombault congregation. Fontgombault is part of the Solesmes congregation; Clear Creek is a foundation of Fontgombault but is also part of the Solesmes congregation.

Oh yes. My bad. I got my terms confused.

 

[OraLabora]

Old Medic, I asked a specific question about permissions within Orders. You have no reason to list off the familiar litany of scandals. For my part, I wish to worship God in a Mass using Latin. You may do what you wish, but the glorious Church of Christ has deigned it right and just for our Roman Rite to be recognised as consisting of two equal forms. One is the ordinary form, it’s true, but the extraordinary quality of the old Mass does not disqualify it.

Please just answer my question, and don’t rip the thread’s purpose away from its original intent.

ConstantineTG, your answer is helpful. I’m just wondering about the atmosphere around Religious orders. Due to Summorum Pontificum, are superiors more likely to allow such a thing since 2007? This is more about psychology than canon law, I suppose.

An abbot or abbess is unlikely to introduce anything divisive into his or her abbey. We have plenty of evidence here of how divisive this debate can be. Monks profess obedience to their abbot so he has the final word.

Just a reminder again, there are many Benedictine houses that use Latin for the Ordinary Form. An abbey of women near Montreal uses Latin occasionally. St. Wandrille in France celebrates the OF in Latin every day except Sunday, when it uses French for parts other than the Ordinary or Propers (due to the presence of a large number of local faithful). My abbey, Saint-Benoît-du-Lac, about 80 miles from Montreal uses Latin for the Propers and Ordinary but the rest of the Mass is done very reverently, in French plainchant which sounds just as beautiful as the Latin. These are all OF Masses. There is no requirement to that says only the EF can be in Latin, in fact the Church in Sacrosanctum Concilium specifies that Latin is still the “official” language of the Roman Rite, even in the OF Mass.

Another thing to keep in mind is the DIvine Office. The Mass in an abbey is part of the overall daily liturgy. The EF really only fits well with older versions of the Divine Office due to the different calendar, etc. The abbey is not going to celebrate a Mass that is incongruous with the form of the Divine Office it celebrates. In Benedictine houses, this is not the 1962 Roman Breviary but rather the Monastic Breviary. The 1962 breviary’s structure only dates back to 1910. The Monastic one, has been constant for 1500 years. It is still in use as far as the psalmody is concerned however it was modified to follow the current calendar, prayers, etc. Many of the antiphons had to be changed or reorganized for the Benedictus and Magnificat as well, as they are tied to the Mass gospel reading and therefore had to be adapted to the 3-year cycle of readings post-Vatican II.

Liturgy is not a simple subject with simplistic solutions.

 

[MikaAkim]

I’m confused. The Church we go to have a new missal book every year. For example last years was this little green book. This year. Now this year its red and says “Sunday Missal for 2011”

Do some churches use old missals and not update them? or just use the same ones over and over?

 

[GloriousOrder]

OraLabora, thank you for the precious information. In particular, your post reminds me of certain things which I often forget. The cardinal virtues are things we pay tribute to, but rarely follow… it is very true for me, anyway. In this case, my imagination and disordered idealism trumped my sense of prudence. I asked whether I might, as a theoretical Dominican friar-priest, celebrate the E.F. when assigned to a parish. In light of your information about the breviary and its connection with the Mass readings, I really should ask whether Religious priests need permission to celebrate the O.F. ad orientem and in Latin!

For me, you see, it’s about language, physical structure, and perceived solemnity. I honestly wouldn’t mind celebrating (or seeing celebrated) the Ordinary Form in a holy, beautiful, majestic, wondrous form. Though I do sorrow at the loss of specificity in the Confiteor, and the loss of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, it’s more about worshiping God than worshiping my own whims. Permission, superiority, and obedience must come before pride.

 

[rben20]

How about just following the Roman Missal? What’s wrong with that?..

The Roman Missal of 1962 is following the Roman Missal

 

[ChadS]

A site that may interest regarding the Dominicans and their Use is The New Liturgical Movement. They have a few Dominicans that contribute regularly from their Western Province and discuss their use of both the Extraordinary Form and the Dominican Use. I think that after Summorum Pontificum came out some religious wrote to the Holy See about the status of Rites and Uses in effect in 1963 and the reply came back that if their usage was valid in 1963 then it can be assumed that they remain in effect today.

I believe as priests religious have the right to offer the EF or their orders particular rite without permission, however, the Holy See recognized that to maintain harmony in their monastery’s that the priests should follow what was decided upon by their monastery.

ChadS

 

[Nowhere_Man]

Thank you very much, my friend. This was the shadow-reason for my thread. The other Orders don’t interest me as much as the Dominicans, so I need to establish their position on this matter. Naturally, since the O.F. is meant to be mostly in Latin and is not illicit if prayed ad orientem, the E.F. is not essential to my faith. We must do what is best for our natures, though, and I am a pompous person… “Grace builds upon nature”, as my patron said.

You’re welcome.
I used to be a bit of a rad-trad, and understandably so because my parish, and all surrounding ones had very bad liturgical abuse and horrid music. (Yes I know the latter isn’t necessarily against liturgical laws, but I connect to the Liturgy best through music, unfortunately) That was, until I attended a Mass at a Dominican-run parish in Seattle. It was profoundly more efficacious for me than any other Mass I’d been to; EF or OF. Incense was used on a regular Ordinary Time Sunday, the Schola sang beautiful Gregorian Chant, the Mass was said versus populum and parts of the Ordinary in the Liturgy of the Eucharist were in Latin, but the majority was in the vernacular. It was precisely how I imagine the “reform of the reform” in the average parish.

Now, whether or not this is typical of the Dominicans, I don’t know, but it seems that way. However, keep in mind that the main charism of the Order of Preachers is to preach, and if you are thinking of becoming a Dominican then be aware that you could be sent anywhere to do anything; be it a parish priest, itinerant preacher, or hospital/prison chaplain. All of those are possible for a Dominican and it is based on what the Province you’re in needs you to do.

EDIT: The Confiteor we use now is the Dominican Rite Confiteor, minus the name of St. Dominic mentioned.

Here’s a Blog on the Dominican Rite.

 

[laszlo]

I can’t believe I’m going to say this. I think we should follow the Protestant’s lead in this matter and offer a traditional service, blended, and a contemporary service, instead of just contemporary all the time. That’s what they do around here anyway.

If someone is celebrating the 1970 Mass as it was approved with Gregorian Chant, that is very close to the Traditional form. The difference (vernacular, expanded Scriptural readings, petitions of the faithful and removing the duplications) is advantage of the new form.

 

[JS_Cortez]

I’m confused. The Church we go to have a new missal book every year. For example last years was this little green book. This year. Now this year its red and says “Sunday Missal for 2011”

Do some churches use old missals and not update them? or just use the same ones over and over?

Are you sure it doesn’t say “Missalette”? The Missalette is the readings, prayers, ects printed so the faithful in the pews can follow along if they don’t have the responses memorized. The Missalettes change every year because they are usually dated with day and date. My church changes them every six months or so.

The Missal is what the Missalette is based on.