Can a Religious offer the Extraordinary Form?

[corsair]

The Dominican Rite was reduced to the background in the 1960’s and the Dominicans adopted the OF Mass with a caveat that they could celebrate the old Dominican Rite with the permission of the Provincial Superior. The western Dominican Province has had a “standing” permission for a couple of decades. Several Dominican priests have been at the forefront of re-introducing that form of Mass. Fr. Ausgutine Thompson, and Fr. Anthony Patalano have been leaders in this effort. There are a number of others that have pursued the Rite. Seatlle’s Blessed Sacrament church and a small mission parish near Toledo, WA. have Dominican Rite Masses several times a year. Blessed Sacrament normally does at least two Solemn High Dominican Rite Masses a year and Toledo has a once a month Dominican low Mass.

I got involved with the Toledo Mass about two years ago. It has been exciting to learn this form of the Mass and its history. I work closely with Fr. Patalano to make sure the Altar is dressed properly and the missalettes with the current propers are printed and ready. Getting Altar boys trained has been “fun”. But I lucked out and found a young man that serves with Fr. Patalano in Oregon. He has been training our two local boys. Earlier in the year we lost an Altar boy to college. I think we may be OK for a couple more years.

 

[GloriousOrder]

…keep in mind that the main charism of the Order of Preachers is to preach, and if you are thinking of becoming a Dominican then be aware that you could be sent anywhere to do anything; be it a parish priest, itinerant preacher, or hospital/prison chaplain. All of those are possible for a Dominican and it is based on what the Province you’re in needs you to do.

This is what is great and wondrous about the Order indeed. My issue is simply with becoming a Dominican priest, and the legalities therein. Regardless of where a Dominican priest might be sent as a friar, he would still be a priest. His ability to consecrate bread into the most holy Body of the Lord would be of use, I am sure. This is where the Traditionalist in me comes out to beg the question.

 

[ConstantineTG]

ConstantineTG, your answer is helpful. I’m just wondering about the atmosphere around Religious orders. Due to Summorum Pontificum, are superiors more likely to allow such a thing since 2007? This is more about psychology than canon law, I suppose.

It would depend very much on the superior if they see a TLM aiding in their work with the community. For example, the Franciscans would be working in poor communities. Would they want to push a Latin Mass when most people who are poor don’t receive quality education or probably no education at all? Is educating them in Latin more important than educating them enough to get decent jobs? From one perspective, this are the things they may consider.

Among them, it all depends on what the Superior wants. Even if the brothers call for it if the Superior thinks its contrary to anything (unity, peace, mission, etc.) then it won’t be approved. And the religious is always bound to their order through their Superiors, so they don’t really have an option.

I could be overexaggerating this, but thats how I understand how it works in orders. Maybe Bro. JR or Bro. David can share if they come across this thread.

 

[OraLabora]

It would depend very much on the superior if they see a TLM aiding in their work with the community. For example, the Franciscans would be working in poor communities. Would they want to push a Latin Mass when most people who are poor don’t receive quality education or probably no education at all? Is educating them in Latin more important than educating them enough to get decent jobs? From one perspective, this are the things they may consider.

Among them, it all depends on what the Superior wants. Even if the brothers call for it if the Superior thinks its contrary to anything (unity, peace, mission, etc.) then it won’t be approved. And the religious is always bound to their order through their Superiors, so they don’t really have an option.

I could be overexaggerating this, but thats how I understand how it works in orders. Maybe Bro. JR or Bro. David can share if they come across this thread.

Speaking for the Benedictines, nothing of significance is done in a Benedictine house without the permission of the abbot or prior when there is no abbot. Even before going out to run errands for the monastery, a monk must kneel before the abbot and receive his blessing.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Now, I am wondering if a priest of one of the pre-1962 Religious Orders can celebrate the Old Mass. Does he require permission to do so? Did Summorum Pontificum only apply to diocesan priests?

I am a brother studying for the priesthood with the Order of the Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel (also known as the Carmelites (O.Carm.)) and it is my understanding that Summorum Pontificum was addressed to the secular priesthood and not those within religious institutes. For us to celebrate the EF we would need the approval of our superior to do so.

As an example: since the Dominican Order dropped the use of its Dominican Rite (13th century) and opted for the 1968 Roman Rite, does it follow that the Order is hostile to the 1962 Missal? I’m not sure who to ask; even if I did know who, I’d be afraid to come off as a stick-in-the-mud.

You might come off worse using words such as “hostile”.

The Dominican Order has restored the use of their Liturgy, at least in some places. But again, it is up to the superiors.

Here, I am referring to validly-ordained Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, and the rest.

As I said, I am not ordained but I am in formation for the priesthood. I do not see why only the “validly-ordained” can answer this question.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Speaking for the Benedictines, nothing of significance is done in a Benedictine house without the permission of the abbot or prior when there is no abbot. Even before going out to run errands for the monastery, a monk must kneel before the abbot and receive his blessing.

This is what I understand about it. Thanks!

 

[GloriousOrder]

You might come off worse using words such as “hostile”.

The Dominican Order has restored the use of their Liturgy, at least in some places. But again, it is up to the superiors.

It certainly cannot be denied that many people are hostile to the Extraordinary Form, just as many are hostile to the Ordinary Form. You shouldn’t take such remarks as being so hateful.

As I said, I am not ordained but I am in formation for the priesthood. I do not see why only the “validly-ordained” can answer this question.

Actually, the clarification at the end of the post was to make it clear that I was asking the question about priests who are friars and monks. I was not saying that only priests can answer my question, nor that only friars can answer. I just wanted an answer. Sorry for my lack of clarity, friend!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It certainly cannot be denied that many people are hostile to the Extraordinary Form, just as many are hostile to the Ordinary Form. You shouldn’t take such remarks as being so hateful.

I didn’t take it as being hateful, just was providing some advice if you do approach someone with this question.

Actually, the clarification at the end of the post was to make it clear that I was asking the question about priests who are friars and monks. I was not saying that only priests can answer my question, nor that only friars can answer. I just wanted an answer. Sorry for my lack of clarity, friend!

Thanks for the clarification.

I hope my reply was helpful.

 

[StTommyMore]

I know for a fact that at Franciscan University of Steubenville, the EF has been celebrated by two different TOR Franciscans and a MIC

 

[Bbigam]

Thank you very much, my friend. This was the shadow-reason for my thread. The other Orders don’t interest me as much as the Dominicans, so I need to establish their position on this matter. Naturally, since the O.F. is meant to be mostly in Latin and is not illicit if prayed ad orientem, the E.F. is not essential to my faith. We must do what is best for our natures, though, and I am a pompous person… “Grace builds upon nature”, as my patron said.

The US Eastern Province Dominicans have a whole website section on the Dominican Rite:
op-stjoseph.org/preaching//dominican_rite/home/

 

[OraLabora]

It certainly cannot be denied that many people are hostile to the Extraordinary Form, just as many are hostile to the Ordinary Form. You shouldn’t take such remarks as being so hateful.

The concept of “hostile” to a liturgy does not apply to a religious order where the religious owe obedience to the superior. In today’s context, for example in the Benedictines, if one is “hostile” to the liturgy used in a particular house, then one should not seek to become a postulant there. In addition to a couple of places using the pre-Vatican II liturgy, there are currently 5 schemas in use in Benedictine monasteries: the current Roman LOTH (usually in houses with extensive external apostolates), and 4 monastic schemas, one of which is the oldest schema still in current use, basically the same one as specified by Saint Benedict 1500 years ago but adapted to the modern calendar and post-Vatican II prayers, intercessions, etc.

It is up to the abbot, in consultation with the monks, to decide which one to use. For the most part, those decisions were made back in the '70s, the liturgical books are all printed and in use, and the monks have been using it for nearly 40 years. The decisions to change in the 70s were not taken lightly nor would a decision to change today be taken lightly.

A case in point: the new Monastic Antiphonary came out in the last 5 years and there are many changes to antiphons. Some monasteries still have not fully phased it in. Liturgy in a Benedictine house has a lot of momentum behind it.

 

[ProVobis]

You see, anyone with even a smattering of education (meaning anyone that was at all literate), used Latin as their written language. So, having the Mass in Latin made sense, back then.

And it still does, as it is not only the official language of the Church, but it is the largest birthrighted denominator within the Latin Rite, whether we realize it or not.

It makes special sense in bilingual communities where a Latin Mass could be shared amongst those there, with a bilingual sermon if the priest is able. That way neither side can claim superiorty. The bilingual sermon works well in the parish I attend, though admittedly it has been used mostly on Holydays of Obligation so far.

 

[Ad_Pondus_Omniu]

Simple answer: Yes, and some do. Many Orders have their own specific Rites that are very old and venerable.

Complex Answer: Not really. Essentially all Orders now celebrate the New Mass, and the specific Rites have been all but phased out. It simply ‘isn’t in the charism’ of most Orders to say the EF today, much the same with the wearing of proper habits, recitation of the full Divine Office, private Masses, and other traditional practices.

Some Dominicans do celebrate the Dominican Rite, but it is dying fast, the Benedictine Rite is almost gone, and the Jesuits, well…what can I say about the Jesuits?

 

[malphono]

Simple answer: Yes, and some do. Many Orders have their own specific Rites that are very old and venerable.

It’s not “many” at all. There is a total of five: Dominican, Carthusian, Carmelite, Cistercian, and Praemonstratentian.

Some Dominicans do celebrate the Dominican Rite, but it is dying fast

It’s really the opposite. In the relatively recent past, the Dominicans have revived interest in their proper Rite, and it used more frequently now than it has been in 40+ years.

the Benedictine Rite is almost gone

What “Benedictine Rite” is that?

and the Jesuits, well…what can I say about the Jesuits?

There is not, and never was, such a thing as a “Jesuit Rite”.

 

[Ad_Pondus_Omniu]

It’s not “many” at all. There is a total of five: Dominican, Carthusian, Carmelite, Cistercian, and Praemonstratentian.

And only a handful of groups still celebrate them peculiar to that specific Order. These Rites were as suppressed as the standard EF after Second Vatican.

 

[OraLabora]

What “Benedictine Rite” is that?

The Benedictines haven’t had their own rite for the Mass since Pius V.

However they have had the same Divine Office rite since the time of St. Benedict, 1500 years ago. Contrary to what Ad Pondus said, it is far from dead, especially in the Solesmes congregation.

I know of 1 monastery of women (Sainte-Marie-des-Deux-Montagnes near Montreal) and four of men (Solesmes, St-Wandrille, Fontgombault and Barroux-the latter not part of the Solesmes congregation).

The rite exists in pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II forms. In the latter, the collects and calendar and liturgical year were updated. Some antiphons were changed to allow for the 3-year cycle of Mass readings (the Sunday Benedictus and Magnificat antiphons are tied to the Gospel readings of that day).

In the newer version, the psalm order is exactly the same as the pre-VII version except that the psalms of Prime have been distributed to the other minor hours. Some women’s monasteries, notably the one in Montreal, still say Prime in the new version of the rite.

Ad libitum, the new version allows monks to keep several practices proper to them: replacement of the intercessions with the Kyrie Eleison-Christe Eleison-Kyrie Eleison; retain the prayer for the dead after the closing rite, the Kyrie and Pater in secreto during the minor hours, placing the Lauds and Vespers hymn after the reading and responsory, the verse after the hymn (V. Dirigatur Domine oration mea… R. sicut incensum in conspecto tuo), use of the Sunday collect for Lauds and Vespers, replacement of the second (patristic) reading with a brief reading and responsory during the summer (from Eastertide to the 1st of November). They also have their own lectionary; the scripture readings are the same as the 2-year cycle of the Roman Office but the patristic readings are different and draw heavily from the monastic tradition.

This version of the Divine Office is I believe the oldest version of the Divine Office still in approved current use, being 1500 years old it makes the 1910 reforms of Pius X seem positively modern! An abbey celebrating the EF Mass would use the pre-VII version, and that celebrating the OF would use the post-VII version, to maintain congruity between the Office and the Mass.

There is a also a newer Monastic Divine Office that dates back to 1977, “Schema B” which meets the letter of the Rule of St. Benedict:

We strongly recommend, however, that if this distribution of the Psalms is displeasing to anyone, he/she should arrange them otherwise, in whatever way she/he considers better, but taking care in any case that the Psalter with its full number of 150 Psalms be chanted every week and begun again every Sunday at the Night Office. For those monastics show themselves too lazy in the service to which they are vowed, who chant less than the Psalter with the customary canticles in the course of a week, whereas we read that our holy Fathers strenuously fulfilled that task in a single day. May we, lukewarm that we are, perform it at least in a whole week

It recites the entire psalter in a week (though an option exists to divide into two weeks). This schema, and also schemas C and D (two-week cycles) are proper to Benedictines but are also shared by Cistercians (who give them different names). These 3 additional schemas also allow the ad libitum monastic variations noted above.

In the Benedictines, the following houses use the EF Mass that I know of: Barroux and Fontgombault in France, Clear Creek in the US.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And only a handful of groups still celebrate them peculiar to that specific Order. These Rites were as suppressed as the standard EF after Second Vatican.

The Vatican suppressed no Orders’ Rite.

The Carmelites were the only order to hand over their Rite to Rome, and this is arguable as to whether or not the Order can practice the Rite today or must apply to Rome first.

You seem to be speaking about something you do not know much about. It seems that you would rather disparage religious Orders in general rather than discussing the actual topic of this thread.

 

[malphono]

The Benedictines haven’t had their own rite for the Mass since Pius V.

Yes, of course, I know of the Office, but I don’t believe there ever was a Benedictine Missal, hence there was never a “Benedictine Rite” Mass.

 

[Ad_Pondus_Omniu]

You seem to be speaking about something you do not know much about. It seems that you would rather disparage religious Orders in general rather than discussing the actual topic of this thread.

Sorry if you take offense to what I have said. If you do, then ignore my complex answer, and just read the simple one. That is just my opinion, maybe a bit more right-wing then most.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Sorry if you take offense to what I have said. If you do, then ignore my complex answer, and just read the simple one. That is just my opinion, maybe a bit more right-wing then most.

Yes, as a religious I take offense by your uninformed comments.