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deb1
Guest
I think that David Berkowitz is different then most serial killers. Didn’t he have an actual mental condition that caused him to hear voices? Now that he is on meds, he probably is a completly different person.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
This very question, but pertaining to any killer, is what led me to go against the death penalty when I was around 14 or 15 years old (and my family was much in favor of it for true convicted killers).
My reasoning was simple: This life is something to be lived in preparation for eternity with God or without Him. No matter how horrific the crime, we do not have the ability to condemn a soul to eternal damnation. This is only a judgment that God Himself can pass.
In my mind then, and today, I believe that it is more important to lock away any such people and hope they repent and return to God while in prison - for life! Many, many prisoners convert to God during their time behind bars.
All of this, of course, is aside from my belief that God should be the one to call someone home. God may want to give some killer a real long life behind bars in order to facilitate that repentance.
My reasoning was simple: This life is something to be lived in preparation for eternity with God or without Him. No matter how horrific the crime, we do not have the ability to condemn a soul to eternal damnation. This is only a judgment that God Himself can pass.
In my mind then, and today, I believe that it is more important to lock away any such people and hope they repent and return to God while in prison - for life! Many, many prisoners convert to God during their time behind bars.
All of this, of course, is aside from my belief that God should be the one to call someone home. God may want to give some killer a real long life behind bars in order to facilitate that repentance.
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alterserver_07
Guest
I would think so, he finally realized what he was doing is wrong and repented fully, at least that is what I get. Gods Grace doesn’t stop for anything or anybody, if this is a true repentance, then he will have the full grace of God.
B
BibleReader
Guest
This interesting thread is directly relevant to most of us.
A lifetime of sin – especially a lifetime of a specific, repeated sin – can make a heart very, very cold.
I spent much of my childhood and young adulthood engaging in the sin of masturbation. Millions of young people and adults reinforce their allegiance to our sexually manic society’s values, and their opposition to the Church, with an explosion of sexual pleasure as their reward for using contraceptives, week after week, month after month, year after year.
Can we recover from such repetitious sin, spiritually? Can we find contrition in our hearts?
I sometimes imagine that when Christ suddenly comes in the sky, millions will be thrown into a panic, as they look for a place to hide, feeling more like rats in the middle of the kitchen floor when the cat appears at the door, than like humble, contrite children of God.
I nonetheless believe that “with God, all things are possible.” I pray not only for forgiveness, but also for contrition in my own hard, dark, cold heart, and it comes.
A lifetime of sin – especially a lifetime of a specific, repeated sin – can make a heart very, very cold.
I spent much of my childhood and young adulthood engaging in the sin of masturbation. Millions of young people and adults reinforce their allegiance to our sexually manic society’s values, and their opposition to the Church, with an explosion of sexual pleasure as their reward for using contraceptives, week after week, month after month, year after year.
Can we recover from such repetitious sin, spiritually? Can we find contrition in our hearts?
I sometimes imagine that when Christ suddenly comes in the sky, millions will be thrown into a panic, as they look for a place to hide, feeling more like rats in the middle of the kitchen floor when the cat appears at the door, than like humble, contrite children of God.
I nonetheless believe that “with God, all things are possible.” I pray not only for forgiveness, but also for contrition in my own hard, dark, cold heart, and it comes.
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SamCA
Guest
It is worth mentioning that it may be physiologically impossible for most serial killers to truly repent their actions – or for that matter to really experience any kind of moral feeling at all. Most serial killers are sociopaths, and one of the key symptoms of sociopathic disorder is the total inability to experience any sympathy for other human beings, or to really understand why it’s bad to harm them. They can understand the abstract idea of right and wrong on an intellectual level, but they seem to be utterly bereft of conscience.
And this doesn’t seem to be a choice. True sociopaths tend to display this behavior from birth on, which is why you hear stories about how as children, serial killers often tortured neighborhood pets to death and so forth. It really does seem like they’re simply born unable to really understand or care that it’s bad to hurt others. At best, they can understand that it would be unpleasant for them if they were caught.
There’s even evidence of hardwired physiological differences. Show most people a picture of a mutilated body, and their nervous system has certain automatic, unconscious reactions to it. A sociopath might as well be looking at a picture of a tree or a sunset. Their brains just don’t respond the same way.
Of course, given that, you might argue that they weren’t mentally competent enough to really make free choices anyway. I’d be interested in hearing if the Church has any official position on sociopaths.
And this doesn’t seem to be a choice. True sociopaths tend to display this behavior from birth on, which is why you hear stories about how as children, serial killers often tortured neighborhood pets to death and so forth. It really does seem like they’re simply born unable to really understand or care that it’s bad to hurt others. At best, they can understand that it would be unpleasant for them if they were caught.
There’s even evidence of hardwired physiological differences. Show most people a picture of a mutilated body, and their nervous system has certain automatic, unconscious reactions to it. A sociopath might as well be looking at a picture of a tree or a sunset. Their brains just don’t respond the same way.
Of course, given that, you might argue that they weren’t mentally competent enough to really make free choices anyway. I’d be interested in hearing if the Church has any official position on sociopaths.
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
You bring up good points and something else worth mentioning. We are truly suppose to look inward, at ourselves and our own sinfulness. We should always strive to move forward, no matter how many times we mess up.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are prisoners right now who have become more holy than the average non-convict - some serving life sentences, some waiting the death penalty, and some who are simply serving time. What matters is where we are when we meet our maker. Some repent at the final seconds and never get a chance to make changes to their life in ways that are pleasing to God. While this is good, it is also sad. But others take their conversions seriously, be they a huge conversion, or just that simple conversion that takes place after a confession.
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contemplative
Guest
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Thank you for this.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
This is an amazing story that should give all of us hope. Thank you!
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robert_ambrose
Guest
all sins are forgiveable by God, except the sin against the Holy Spirit and that means despair.
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Lorarose
Guest
I just finished reading Nightmare in Wichita.
I would say it is possible he wanted to get caught but highly unlikely.
Mr. Rader was aware that a book was being written about the murders.
When he began to contact (and taunt) the police again - he was sending them chapters to his own story.
I personally think that his ego couldn’t handle someone else writing about the killings. I think the book brought him out and not some desire to repent.
His more recent contacts with police contained much of the same as his old contacts…taunting - threats to kill again - assurance that he was still stalking “projects”
He was sending in photos he had taken as he tortured and murdered people. He was proud of those pictures.
I have read accounts of those who lived near him, worked with him, and came in contact with him due to their dogs being loose or their grass being too high. The overall impression does not indicate a man in the middle of conversion.
Is it possible for him to convert? I hope so.
Do I think he’s converted yet? No.
I would say it is possible he wanted to get caught but highly unlikely.
Mr. Rader was aware that a book was being written about the murders.
When he began to contact (and taunt) the police again - he was sending them chapters to his own story.
I personally think that his ego couldn’t handle someone else writing about the killings. I think the book brought him out and not some desire to repent.
His more recent contacts with police contained much of the same as his old contacts…taunting - threats to kill again - assurance that he was still stalking “projects”
He was sending in photos he had taken as he tortured and murdered people. He was proud of those pictures.
I have read accounts of those who lived near him, worked with him, and came in contact with him due to their dogs being loose or their grass being too high. The overall impression does not indicate a man in the middle of conversion.
Is it possible for him to convert? I hope so.
Do I think he’s converted yet? No.
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AmyS
Guest
Sir Knight:
mariagoretti.org/index.htm
This story reminds a bit of Alessandro Serenelli, who was the murderer of St Maria Gorietti. He is not a Saint though. She is because she forgave, she was very young when she was murdered 11 years old. Anyways, you can read about him on this site. He did repent, but, Maria led the way.
mariagoretti.org/index.htm
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abcdefg
Guest
I don’t know if he’s on meds, but most probably he isn’t since he confessed that demonic visions/voices are lies to prove his insanity.
after all he’s different. not many serial killers have yet repented.
Mary Bell probably is another repented example. but Karla Homolka, who’s about to be released, never showed any sign of repentence.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Sociopaths, psychopaths do not meet the criteria for non compus mentus. They know what is right and they know what is wrong. They just don’t care. Are they hardwired this way? Sure. Can God heal them? God works in mysterious ways. I think a lot of us end up being healed, if not in this world, then in Purgatory.
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SamCA
Guest
Ani Ibi:
It’s an interesting question, because the disconnect comes at a different point than usual. We usually talk of people who don’t know the difference between right and wrong; as you say, sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong, but they can’t understand why they should do right instead of wrong. (Beyond basic ideas of “If I get caught I’ll be punished,” of course.)
That’s what makes me curious. If they are biologically incapable of caring what is right and wrong, is it really possible for them to make a moral choice?
It’s an interesting question, because the disconnect comes at a different point than usual. We usually talk of people who don’t know the difference between right and wrong; as you say, sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong, but they can’t understand why they should do right instead of wrong. (Beyond basic ideas of “If I get caught I’ll be punished,” of course.)
That would be nice. It would be unsettling to think that people are condemned to hell for a congenital brain defect.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
This is a transformative question. I claim not to care about a certain group of people who have seriously wronged me and caused me enormous hardship. Do I exact vengeance?
No. Why? Because I care about God. I love God yes. But I fear God as well.
Really, the central question for sociopaths, psychopaths is can they care about God? Can they love God? Can they fear God? Any one of those would serve to crimp their hobbies.
The consideration of getting punished is no small discussion point. Living a crime-free life is just plain common sense. It is low maintenance. Many people who live from the proceeds of crime are less interested in the proceeds and more interested in the thrill and constant edginess. Perhaps this excitement compensates for ‘normal’ feelings.
BK was very successful. Likely he got bored. Likely he craved reinforcement of his prowess at killing and at getting away. Letting down his guard, I suggest, may have been more about upping the stakes and excitement than about wanting to get caught. Perhaps, once caught, yanking the authorities has become a game for him. A way of connecting, given a compromised ability to connect.
So, yeah, sociopaths psychopaths do care. They just don’t care about the same things we do.
Are they culpable? Yes. They know the difference between right and wrong. At some point, they know something is wrong with them. They may not understand what is wrong with them. Do they kill the people who provide them with the social supports they need to survive? Perhaps incidentally. I believe the majority of victims are strangers, are they not? To minimize the chances of getting caught. So they do at some level understand their own natures as social, interdependent beings.
Their method, however, is parasitical. Relationships are not a negotiated, but manipulated or coerced.
I think some examination of their self-images would be fruitful too. Besides fearing and loving God, I also do not see myself as a destructive person who lacks honour. How do sociopaths psychopaths see themselves?
Z
Zooey
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Not a serial killer, but I think of the woman in Washington state who shot her children (killed one, maimed the other 2)some years ago, because the married man she was having an affair didn’t like children.
Anyhow, in jail awaiting trial, one of the other prisoners asked her how she could do such a thing. She said, “Oh, I can always have other babies”…In fact, she was all ready expecting another one. She was convicted, & was very upset that she wasn’t allowed to keep the baby with her in prison.
She was a sociopath/psychopath. She knew it was wrong to kill. She didn’t care…
Now, anyone can repent. God will forgive anything. ( Saul of Tarsus was a terrorist; Paul writing the epistles was a saint…) But some people don’t **want **to repent.
I don’t think that most serial killers will repent. It would mean admitting that they were wrong…All of these people feel sorry for themselves–& only themselves. They do, however, have a choice–the same choice we all have.
But do they know that what they are doing is wrong? Yes. Do they care? No. Could they learn to behave in a godly manner? Of course they could. They don’t want to. They are utterly self absorbed; as a result, they continue to feel sorry, not for their victims, but for themselves…
I don’t believe that they care about anybody or anything enough to repent of their sins, because that would require them to admit that they had, in fact, sinned. There are people who would rather go to hell than admit that they were sinners.
This is very sad. What is sadder is that all of them had the same opportunity to turn their lives around as the rest of the people in the world. But they refused…
Sad. But true…
I think I’m pretty close to Ani on this one. Yes, they can repent. Anyone can repent. The problem is that some people just don’t care about anything but themselves.
Not a serial killer, but I think of the woman in Washington state who shot her children (killed one, maimed the other 2)some years ago, because the married man she was having an affair didn’t like children.
Anyhow, in jail awaiting trial, one of the other prisoners asked her how she could do such a thing. She said, “Oh, I can always have other babies”…In fact, she was all ready expecting another one. She was convicted, & was very upset that she wasn’t allowed to keep the baby with her in prison.
She was a sociopath/psychopath. She knew it was wrong to kill. She didn’t care…
Now, anyone can repent. God will forgive anything. ( Saul of Tarsus was a terrorist; Paul writing the epistles was a saint…) But some people don’t **want **to repent.
I don’t think that most serial killers will repent. It would mean admitting that they were wrong…All of these people feel sorry for themselves–& only themselves. They do, however, have a choice–the same choice we all have.
But do they know that what they are doing is wrong? Yes. Do they care? No. Could they learn to behave in a godly manner? Of course they could. They don’t want to. They are utterly self absorbed; as a result, they continue to feel sorry, not for their victims, but for themselves…
I don’t believe that they care about anybody or anything enough to repent of their sins, because that would require them to admit that they had, in fact, sinned. There are people who would rather go to hell than admit that they were sinners.
This is very sad. What is sadder is that all of them had the same opportunity to turn their lives around as the rest of the people in the world. But they refused…
Sad. But true…
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Were there miracles attributed to him while he was still alive?
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AmyS
Guest
Sir Knight:
They were attributed to Maria… She came to him in a dream and forgave him. Which led to a major conversion for him. He was even there when she was cannonized. I don’t think he has become a saint.
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mickey_doolan
Guest
Let us pray that this person finds Christ and finds redemption .Only Christ saves .Remember the parable of the lost sheep.
If a person accepts Christ in their heart , Jesus can do wonders.
Look at Paul , he murdered Christians…and he ended up saving souls.
Hopefully this will show how God is merciful and gives grace and hope for all.
If a person accepts Christ in their heart , Jesus can do wonders.
Look at Paul , he murdered Christians…and he ended up saving souls.
Hopefully this will show how God is merciful and gives grace and hope for all.
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