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graceandglory
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Are you disagreeing with my post or with Humanae Vitae? Have you honestly thought this out more than Pope Paul VI and John Paul II?
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Magickman
Guest
No one has a right to “demand” children from theirr spouse. Children deserve to be wanted by both parents.
If one spouse desires children and the other does not, then they need to achieve an agreement, or terminate the marriage.
A spouse who wants children should be able to have them, and a spouse who wishes to be childfree ought be able to do that.
If the spouses cannot agree, then they should find a more suitable marital situation.
Neither position is absolutely right, nor should a decision about having children be a unilateral matter.
In my opinion, children must be a joint decision, and this decision should be agreed upon before marriage.
If one spouse desires children and the other does not, then they need to achieve an agreement, or terminate the marriage.
A spouse who wants children should be able to have them, and a spouse who wishes to be childfree ought be able to do that.
If the spouses cannot agree, then they should find a more suitable marital situation.
Neither position is absolutely right, nor should a decision about having children be a unilateral matter.
In my opinion, children must be a joint decision, and this decision should be agreed upon before marriage.
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mommamaree
Guest
I was not advocating the 5year plan. If you’ll notice in my post above, I was not sure why the 5year plan kept following us around in life, never getting any shorter. And that was even taking into account that we were 19 when we got married. I was actually advising to carefully consider whether postponing children had valid reasons any more. Sometimes couples forget to reevaluate their decisions and their progress, until they suddenly discover it is too late, as you mentioned. I was hoping that the OP and his wife could address their concerns together soon, and make a short-term plan. You are right that we should never presume upon God. Hope that clears up the confusion about my post!
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EasterJoy
Guest
I think this is why the Church considers every marriage valid until proven otherwise. It is too easy to see the obvious congenital defects in any marriage, valid or not.
You have no obvious defect in form, so consider your marriage valid. If you went to the priest and said “We didn’t understand then, but we understand now, we want a convalidation”, I don’t think you could get one.
Why? Except for a lucky few, everybody who marries for a lifetime will sooner or later find himself or herself married to someone that he or she woke up married to. We will realize that some of the love we had for our spouse, maybe even most of it, was actually rooted in selfishness or neurosis. It dawns on us that we started marriage as poor lovers! Some of us had a greater theoretical knowledge of what we were getting ourselves into than you did, but with the possible exceptions of widows remarrying, none of us who said our vows really knew what we were getting ourselves into. As the priest who married my husband and me put it, “If any of us really knew what we were getting into when we made our vows, we probably wouldn’t have the courage to do it.”
It is like our growth in the faith. The more you grow in holiness, the more you realize how much of what you’ve always thought and had to say about God was just parrot talk. You grow up thinking the saints are a little nuts, because they moan about their sins as being boulders, when all those little trivial acts look like cotton balls. Then as you go on, the true gravity of sin starts to dawn on you. You always “knew”, but until you tried to live it, you didn’t get it. You don’t really know the mystery of marital love until you’ve lived it, either, and lived it just because you said you would. It is kind of like not really being a pilot until you can fly just on the instruments. Flying by sight, on sunny days when you can see forever is the easy part. It is why young people want to be pilots. That kind of flying is not what gets you to be an old pilot! Old pilots know how to fly on instruments.
Remember that St. Paul had this to say:
“Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.” 1 Cor. 7:8-9
and
To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Cor. 7:12-16
I think St. Paul would say that marrying in order to preserve chastity, in spite of debts that prevent the immediate active pursuit of children, is a good enough reason. That’s a valid marriage. I think he’d say that as long as your husband is in there with you, stay in there with him. Address the issue of validity if the marriage fails. Until then, do whatever you can to make it succeed. If you are not contracepting, if you are open to children, God allows you to wait faithfully for your husband to open up to the Will of God, too. You do not sin by staying. You will not defeat God’s purposes by staying. You might defeat God’s purposes by leaving when victory is still a possibility. If you do that, then you will be able to go on if you see that God’s victory is impossible, knowing you did the best you could.
Let’s hope, though, that you succeed!
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Just_Lurking
Guest
One would hope that the priest would follow canon law:
Can. 1159 §1. A marriage which is invalid because of a defect of consent is convalidated if the party who did not consent now consents, provided that the consent given by the other party perseveres.
§2. If the defect of consent cannot be proven, it is sufficient that the party who did not consent gives consent privately and in secret.
§3. If the defect of consent can be proven, the consent must be given in canonical form.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I’m not so sure the defect is so obvious, but any priest who thought it was would follow canon law, yes, of course. I did not mean to imply that the priest would withhold the opportunity for convalidation, only that the need for it might not be so clear. But perhaps it is a case like a conditional baptism, where the err is on the side of caution.
Having said that, the priest has to make certain there isn’t any coersion present, either, nor any other impediment to true valid consent by both parties. He’s going to make sure everyone is really on board with this. If there needs to be a second time, it needs to “take”, so to speak!
The couple has been very honest, I’m thinking, but the situation will be more clear after their priest has a chance to discuss this with them. I hope it works out well for them, though. Even when the marriage is invalid and an annulment is possible, divorce is heartbreaking.
As I tell my nieces and nephews when they’re looking for a mate: Be careful when you marry. You can get a divorce, but an ex is forever. When it comes time to divorce, it is time, there are moral reasons for doing that, but it needs to really be the only solution a reasonable person would see to choose.
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Lightbee
Guest
To the OP - When I read your post I nearly wondered if my husband had written it! It almost sounds identical to our situation, except that I haven’t threatened leaving him (nor do I want to). I can’t help but wonder for you what the real concern is for you about having children while still managing debt - I ask this because I know for my husband his birth mother put him up for adoption claiming “financial reasons” and I think this has caused him an awful lot of hurt and concern that any children he fathers shouldn’t be subjected to the same situation. Of course, being sensible I know that’s not the case, but human minds are funny things and an issue that may seem small to one person, can be overwhelming to another.
I definitely agree with the previous posters that your wife shouldn’t be threatening you over this - but it definitely sounds like you both need to communicate on what you really want, and why, and try and find your common ground.
I’ll pray for you.
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tafan
Guest
Is it just me or is there way too much advocacy of divorce on this forum?
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Ne_OrangeKnight
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yladoob
Guest
The resolution:
The OP and I were given two annulments from the Catholic Church from the traditional two required tribunals of different dioceses. It took almost a year.
My advice to anyone reading this thread because they are worried about their marriage:
The OP and I were given two annulments from the Catholic Church from the traditional two required tribunals of different dioceses. It took almost a year.
- On the part of the wife: Grave lack of discretionary judgment
- On the part of the husband: Willful exclusion of children
My advice to anyone reading this thread because they are worried about their marriage:
- Pray. Make yourself available to the Holy Spirit and open your heart to Him. This may require you to spend less time at work or at leisure or with your spouse. If it does, make sacrifices to protect your relationship with God.
- Receive the sacraments. The closer you are to God through the sacraments, the closer you will be to your spouse. This may require you to become less available to your spouse. Make those sacrifices to protect your relationship with God.
- Listen to the priests and family and friends whom you trust - not the ones who have constantly told you what you want to hear but the ones whose lives show the workings of the holy spirit - good fruit.
- Go to counseling. Catholic Charities offers counseling based on your income.
- Journal. The avoidance of children or any other blessings in marriage may be the symptom of a deeper problem. By journaling, you and your counselor will be able to uncover these things.
- Talk to a canon lawyer. Sometimes, priests are uncomfortable or simply ignorant of the complexities of canon law. No priest will tell you that you have grounds for an annulment. They want to save every marriage and rightfully so. This is why it is your job to pray. This decision is completely yours and no one will encourage you to end your marriage. A canon lawyer will help you become informed.
- Go to marriage counseling. The Church has a wonderful program called Retrouvailles (www.retrouvailles.org). Commit to the program offered and listen to the Holy Spirit.
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
I have heard many people say that if you wait for the right time to have kids, one will never have any. Whether it is debt, going back to school, etc. I do not have my own living children (2 miscarriages).
There may never be a good time and you may never be out of debt. Budgeting, sacrificing things (dinners, movies, etc.) so that your potential children can have things. Also, you can buy children’s toys off of Craigslist. My stepdaughter who has four kids has found some really good deals on Craigslist. Children (especially the really young ones) grow out of their toys quickly.
There may never be a good time and you may never be out of debt. Budgeting, sacrificing things (dinners, movies, etc.) so that your potential children can have things. Also, you can buy children’s toys off of Craigslist. My stepdaughter who has four kids has found some really good deals on Craigslist. Children (especially the really young ones) grow out of their toys quickly.
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