Can a 'traditional' Catholic prefer the OF?

[TrueLight]

Technically no. Its called the Divine Liturgy. I do sometimes post about it in the L&S section. Actually, come drop by the Eastern Forum, you’ll see that a majority of the topics there are hardly about the Liturgy and the Sacramental Rites of the East. Mostly its about Eastern theology. I’d love for it to be discussed more in the L&S forum but just recently someone shooed me away in the L&S forum claiming it was a Roman Catholic forum and not an Eastern Catholic one (not a moderator to be clear, just another member like us).

You go ahead and post in the L&S forum about the Divine Liturgy, Constantine. Some of us are very interested. Since the majority who post are latin Catholics though, you might have to clarify and say in Eastern Catholicism …

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Apparently some people have been banned. If that is not censorship, I don’t know what is. And it is not like outlandish claims are being thrown around on this forum. Control is perhaps subtle but it is still control. And it happens to be aimed at those who support the EF.

Sure users have been banned but I do not think those being banned are of any one “type” of user. Also when they are banned the post or posts that got them banned are usually removed so many are not prvy to the full reason for the banning.

Users are not banned eith out warning so IMHO a user choses to br banned so a user eho makes that decision is not bring censored.

Finally this is a private forum and therefore CAF does not have to provide a platform for any speech that they do not wish, so technically it is not censorship in the legal meaning of the word.

 

[jwinch2]

Finally this is a private forum and therefore CAF does not have to provide a platform for any speech that they do not wish…

Bingo. The rules are made apparent to everyone upon joining and no one is forcing anyone to come here.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Finally this is a private forum and therefore CAF does not have to provide a platform for any speech that they do not wish, so technically it is not censorship in the legal meaning of the word.

No, not in the legal sense.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

There you go. I’ve been waiting for a comment of this sort. I’m surprised offensive stuff did not come up earlier in the thread. But it always happens. You should be embarrased for being so judgemental towards your fellow Catholics. What exactly is offensive to you in that humorous but quite true description?

I’m not embarrased in the least. And I’m talking about that DEFINITION. If people want to claim that as an accurate description of themselves, I can’t do anything about it, but it’s precisely WHY I wouldn’t want to be described like that…and it gives me pause to examine my own life, as, like Constantine, in my circle of family and friends, I’m reckoned a “traditionlist” and a “conservative.”

And where to begin? “Folded like a Catholic?” There is no prescribed way for a “Catholic” to hold their hands at Mass. My 6 year old godchild reaches for my hand frequently at Mass. My “churchmanship,” my “ecclesiastical partisanship” is defined by that? But that’s exactly the kind of thing some “traditionalist” take note of. And it would be "John Paul the Great POPE, BTW. And then, there’s the back-handed diss of an ecumenical council.

By that “humorous” definition, I only miss on a couple of points (ie, I strike my breast, cross myself when passing a church, invoke St. Michael, etc). Those things don’t make me a “traditionalist,” NOR do they make me CATHOLIC. Those things are elements of our culture, but not constituent elements. The contrite state of my soul isn’t measured by how hard I strike my breast, my reverence for the Blessed Sacrament isn’t measured by whether or not I remember to cross myself when passing a Church. Those are helpful postures and aids and lovely parts of our culture. It would, however, be a mistake to use those things AND that definition as a measuring tool to assess much of anything, let alone people. It isn’t, however, a stretch to imagine “traditionalists” doing so.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I’m not embarrased in the least. And I’m talking about that DEFINITION. If people want to claim that as an accurate description of themselves, I can’t do anything about it, but it’s precisely WHY I wouldn’t want to be described like that…and it gives me pause to examine my own life, as, like Constantine, in my circle of family and friends, I’m reckoned a “traditionlist” and a “conservative.”

And where to begin? “Folded like a Catholic?” There is no prescribed way for a “Catholic” to hold their hands at Mass. My 6 year old godchild reaches for my hand frequently at Mass. My “churchmanship,” my “ecclesiastical partisanship” is defined by that? But that’s exactly the kind of thing some “traditionalist” take note of. And it would be "John Paul the Great POPE, BTW. And then, there’s the back-handed diss of an ecumenical council.

By that “humorous” definition, I only miss on a couple of points (ie, I strike my breast, cross myself when passing a church, invoke St. Michael, etc). Those things don’t make me a “traditionalist,” NOR do they make me CATHOLIC. Those things are elements of our culture, but not constituent elements. The contrite state of my soul isn’t measured by how hard I strike my breast, my reverence for the Blessed Sacrament isn’t measured by whether or not I remember to cross myself when passing a Church. Those are helpful postures and aids and lovely parts of our culture. It would, however, be a mistake to use those things AND that definition as a measuring tool to assess much of anything, let alone people. It isn’t, however, a stretch to imagine “traditionalists” doing so.

I’m always amazed at this kind of anger. What exactly are you afraid of? I wish I could understand what is so offensive about Catholic culture to Catholics.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m always amazed at this kind of anger. What exactly are you afraid of? I wish I could understand what is so offensive about Catholic culture to Catholics.

A) I’m not angry. I’ve explained what I find distasteful about some “traditionalists” (emphasis on SOME). B) I’m not afraid. See the second sentence of A). C) There is nothing in Catholic culture that I find offensive, as I am an active and eager participant in it. Strident arrogance? That I find offensive. Again, see the second sentence of A).

Fantastic attempt at spin, but I know what I mean and somehow, I think you do as well.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

A) I’m not angry. I’ve explained what I find distasteful about some “traditionalists” (emphasis on SOME). B) I’m not afraid. See the second sentence of A). C) There is nothing in Catholic culture that I find offensive, as I am an active and eager participant in it. Strident arrogance? That I find offensive. Again, see the second sentence of A).

Fantastic attempt at spin, but I know what I mean and somehow, I think you do as well.

Oh please. Go and bait other people. If you are so keen on participating in the Catholic culture, why does it bother you when other people rejoice in it and are proud of it? I don’t wear a scapular and I dont have a holy water stoup at home, but I love to see others who do. I don’t find that arrogant at all. It doesn’t make me less of a Catholic to admit I don’t know it all and that there are indeed things that fell out of use in the last few decades that I might not be aware of and that are not part of my life. I’m just grateful for those people who are happy to share their knowledge. But of course, with a hostile environment like this, no wonder they get fed up and leave.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Oh please. Go and bait other people. If you are so keen on participating in the Catholic culture, why does it bother you when other people rejoice in it and are proud of it? I don’t wear a scapular and I dont have a holy water stoup at home, but I love to see others who do. I don’t find that arrogant at all. It doesn’t make me less of a Catholic to admit I don’t know it all and that there are indeed things that fell out of use in the last few decades that I might not be aware of and that are not part of my life. I’m just grateful for those people who are happy to share their knowledge. But of course, with a hostile environment like this, no wonder they get fed up and leave.

Oh, please. Who’s baiting whom? It doesn’t bother me when others rejoice in Catholic culture and are proud of it. I don’t wear a scapular and I don’t have a holy water stoup at home, but I, too, love to see others who do. I don’t find any of that arrogant at all, EITHER. It’s the “this is the way we’re SUPPOSED to hold our hands” and the “John Paul the great what” and “doesn’t rhyme with attican shoe” mentality that bugs me. Here’s a good example: I think it’s lovely that some women veil, out of a sense of reverence. I think it’s great and I’d never discourage a woman from doing that. I object strenously, however, to the attitude that they HAVE to veil, since the Holy See has said that it was a matter of discipline and that women don’t have to do it.

Motes and dust, my friend, you aren’t even reading closely enough to see what I’m saying. It’s not the culture, it’s the exclusivity and haughty attitude it seems to have brought out in some, SOME, mind you, not everyone.

 

[Love_Divine]

Can anyone conceive of a parish where the O.F. is prayed using chant for the Introit, Kyrie, Gloria, Epistle, Gospel, Credo, Preface, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei? Swirling incense, altar servers in cassocks/surplices, the only instrument accompaniment the organ (if it must be done… )? I’ve never seen or heard of such a thing, but it must exist. The celebrant might give a homily on St. John Chrysostom’s teaching, or the style of St. Paul, or the mannerisms of St. Bonaventure’s theology. So many beautiful things are possible in both forms of Mass… cutting attendees into convenient sects is… well, inconvenient.

I think they might do this at the Cathedral of St. Paul in St. Paul, MN. I was there once while traveling through. I didn’t attend Mass, but they did list a “Solemn Mass” on their list of Masses. It’s a huge Cathedral.

I don’t know what defines a Traditional Catholic, but given the amount of Catholics who freely call themselves Catholic, yet, don’t attend Mass regularly, don’t accept the vast majority of the Church’s moral teachings, etc, I’m perfectly fine with the term “Cafeteria Catholic” when looking for a future husband and weeding out the Catholics from the catholics.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

It’s the “this is the way we’re SUPPOSED to hold our hands” and the “John Paul the great what” and “doesn’t rhyme with attican shoe” mentality that bugs me. Here’s a good example: I think it’s lovely that some women veil, out of a sense of reverence. I think it’s great and I’d never discourage a woman from doing that. I object strenously, however, to the attitude that they HAVE to veil, since the Holy See has said that it was a matter of discipline and that women don’t have to do it.

Guess what, I’ve never come across this insistence that women must veil and I’ve never heard people say demeaning things about JPII. People might not be fans and don’t idolise him (myself included), but that does not mean they hate him or say insulting things. The exclusivity you speak of is perhaps some kind of a chip on your sholder, not reality.
Shall we end this now please? Your comments are seriously ruining my mood.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Guess what, I’ve never come across this insistence that women must veil and I’ve never heard people say demeaning things about JPII. People might not be fans and don’t idolise him (myself included), but that does not mean they hate him or say insulting things. The exclusivity you speak of is perhaps some kind of a chip on your sholder, not reality.
Shall we end this now please? Your comments are seriously ruining my mood.

If you haven’t seen such things, then perhaps you should do a search of these fora. Just because YOU haven’t experienced these things doesn’t mean others have not. And your “mood” is hardly germane. You accosted me, I didn’t accost you. So if you want to end this, I’d be pleased to do so.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

If you haven’t seen such things, then perhaps you should do a search of these fora. Just because YOU haven’t experienced these things doesn’t mean others have not.

I mean in real life, where people will actually be a bit more polite and not call others arrogant because of their beliefs. It is so easy to hide behind the anonimity of the internet and use insulting language when discussing a group whose behaviour is not approved of.

 

[archangel04]

I am telling you guys just to drop it, you can’t win so just let it be and enjoy the fact that you can attend an EF, and you can pray freely in most countries. Let the Holy Spirit lead the Church where He wants to lead her.

Constantine the reason why you were “shoed” away was because no one was asking about the Divine liturgy, it was questions about what goes on in the Roman rite. Don’t get me wrong I love the DLs I have been too, and if I could and I knew there would be a DL in my area I would have swithced rites by now. Just like you felt being shoed away so do some of us feel same way.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I mean in real life, where people will actually be a bit more polite and not call others arrogant because of their beliefs. It is so easy to hide behind the anonimity of the internet and use insulting language when discussing a group whose behaviour is not approved of.

I remind you that I was commenting on a definition. I also used the qualification “some.”

 

[SouthpawLink]

Traditional Catholics believe the TLM to be objectively superior to the OF. They practice devotions which predate the Council, and hold the Faith, whole and entire, in the way in which it has been traditionally expressed (see the pre-Vatican II theology manuals for further reference).

I dare say traditional Catholics also believe the 1917 Code to be superior to the 1983 Code; maybe I’m just in the minority on that one.

 

[OraLabora]

Can anyone conceive of a parish where the O.F. is prayed using chant for the Introit, Kyrie, Gloria, Epistle, Gospel, Credo, Preface, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei? Swirling incense, altar servers in cassocks/surplices, the only instrument accompaniment the organ (if it must be done… )?

I was just at such an OF Mass this morning, at a local Benedictine abbey. The way it went was something like this: an organ prelude was played on the abbey’s magnificent pipe organ, by the abbot who is a prize-winning organist. Note, all the chant is a cappella that is unaccompanied by the organ.Then the schola intoned the Introit, as the monks processed in behind two acolytes, one carrying the processional cross, the other swinging the incense. At the monks took place in their stalls, the schola were chanting the psalm verse of the Introit. As they finished, then the entire community (and myself, an oblate), repeated the Introit. After the opening (chanted), the penitential rite was chanted, and Kyrie XIII was chanted, followed by the Gloria for the same setting.

After the (chanted) collect, the OT reading was chanted, and following that, the Gradual (in mode V) was chanted by the schola and community, with the psalm verse by the schola. Then the epistle was chanted, followed by the chanted alleluia. Next the Gospel was proclaimed (chanted) with incense, the homily followed, and the Credo (II) was chanted. After the intercessions, the Offertory was chanted, then followed by an organ piece. The Preface and EP were of course chanted, as was the Sanctus (XIII). After the EP, the Our Father was chanted, and after the sign of peace, Angus XIII was chanted. During communion, the Communion Antiphon for the day was chanted. Then the concluding rite of the Mass was chanted.

In short, apart from the homily, everything was chanted. The Propers were chanted in Latin, the Ordinary in Greek/Latin, and the rest including EP in French.

With a Mass like that available to me, is it any wonder that I have very little interest seeking out an EF Mass?

I am against “labeling”. Labels generally serve to exclude. I am not a “traditionalist” but do want “tradition” and “Tradition” to survive in an organically evolving Mass. For me, that certainly includes preserving the corpus of traditional Catholic music, especially Gregorian chant. To the monks of Solesmes, we owe a large debt for having realigned all of the traditional chant for the OF Mass which they published in the Graduale Romanum.

People’s tastes exist in a continuum, not neatly packaged into a container onto which you can stick a label.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I was just at such an OF Mass this morning, at a local Benedictine abbey. The way it went was something like this: an organ prelude was played on the abbey’s magnificent pipe organ, by the abbot who is a prize-winning organist. Note, all the chant is a cappella that is unaccompanied by the organ.Then the schola intoned the Introit, as the monks processed in behind two acolytes, one carrying the processional cross, the other swinging the incense. At the monks took place in their stalls, the schola were chanting the psalm verse of the Introit. As they finished, then the entire community (and myself, an oblate), repeated the Introit. After the opening (chanted), the penitential rite was chanted, and Kyrie XIII was chanted, followed by the Gloria for the same setting.

After the (chanted) collect, the OT reading was chanted, and following that, the Gradual (in mode V) was chanted by the schola and community, with the psalm verse by the schola. Then the epistle was chanted, followed by the chanted alleluia. Next the Gospel was proclaimed (chanted) with incense, the homily followed, and the Credo (II) was chanted. After the intercessions, the Offertory was chanted, then followed by an organ piece. The Preface and EP were of course chanted, as was the Sanctus (XIII). After the EP, the Our Father was chanted, and after the sign of peace, Angus XIII was chanted. During communion, the Communion Antiphon for the day was chanted. Then the concluding rite of the Mass was chanted.

In short, apart from the homily, everything was chanted. The Propers were chanted in Latin, the Ordinary in Greek/Latin, and the rest including EP in French.

With a Mass like that available to me, is it any wonder that I have very little interest seeking out an EF Mass?

I am against “labeling”. Labels generally serve to exclude. I am not a “traditionalist” but do want “tradition” and “Tradition” to survive in an organically evolving Mass. For me, that certainly includes preserving the corpus of traditional Catholic music, especially Gregorian chant. To the monks of Solesmes, we owe a large debt for having realigned all of the traditional chant for the OF Mass which they published in the Graduale Romanum.

People’s tastes exist in a continuum, not neatly packaged into a container onto which you can stick a label.

Drools The way that Mass was celebrated sounds wonderful! Gets out phone book to find nearest monastery

 

[Claire_from_DE]

What was that about live chickens???

 

[TrueLight]

I was just at such an OF Mass this morning, at a local Benedictine abbey. The way it went was something like this: an organ prelude was played on the abbey’s magnificent pipe organ, by the abbot who is a prize-winning organist. Note, all the chant is a cappella that is unaccompanied by the organ.Then the schola intoned the Introit, as the monks processed in behind two acolytes, one carrying the processional cross, the other swinging the incense. At the monks took place in their stalls, the schola were chanting the psalm verse of the Introit. As they finished, then the entire community (and myself, an oblate), repeated the Introit. After the opening (chanted), the penitential rite was chanted, and Kyrie XIII was chanted, followed by the Gloria for the same setting.

After the (chanted) collect, the OT reading was chanted, and following that, the Gradual (in mode V) was chanted by the schola and community, with the psalm verse by the schola. Then the epistle was chanted, followed by the chanted alleluia. Next the Gospel was proclaimed (chanted) with incense, the homily followed, and the Credo (II) was chanted. After the intercessions, the Offertory was chanted, then followed by an organ piece. The Preface and EP were of course chanted, as was the Sanctus (XIII). After the EP, the Our Father was chanted, and after the sign of peace, Angus XIII was chanted. During communion, the Communion Antiphon for the day was chanted. Then the concluding rite of the Mass was chanted.

In short, apart from the homily, everything was chanted. The Propers were chanted in Latin, the Ordinary in Greek/Latin, and the rest including EP in French.

Beautiful!