Can a 'traditional' Catholic prefer the OF?

[TrueLight]

Not according to some definitions presented here.

Ha, ha. You responded to quickly. I updated my post.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think you like guitar masses and you really like Latin.

I also listen to Greek and Polish.

But I have yet to hear an edifying guitar mass. (But I don’t doubt its validity.)

 

[TrueLight]

I also listen to Greek and Polish.

Oh I forgot. You really like Polish too. Are you Polish?

 

[ProVobis]

Oh I forgot. You really like Polish too. Are you Polish?

Thanks for asking. Parents were both Polish-born and I attended Polish school in my early years. My English was very poor until we came to the U.S. But hard work and educating my parents got me an Excellence in English award in high school. Latin helped me a lot there.

 

[TrueLight]

Thanks for asking. Parents were both Polish-born and I attended Polish school in my early years. My English was very poor until we came to the U.S. But hard work and educating my parents got me an Excellence in English award in high school. Latin helped me a lot there.

Awesome! I love languages.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Greetings all,

I would break it down in this fashion:

Tridentine Catholic:
Observes only the EF Latin Mass; does not eat meat on Friday; women wear head coverings (and usually only dresses- no slacks/shorts); typically use only Pre-Vatican II hymnals. We ALWAYS receive Communion in the mouth while kneeling, (unless medical conditions restrict our ability to kneel). We approve of all current Church Doctrine concerning female priests, abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. We generally reject all the revisions of Vatican II that are not related to faith and morals issues. However, unlike the SSPX people; we still recognize the current pope and our local bishop. (BTW- this is my group).

Traditional Catholic:
Can observe either the EF or the OF Mass, (but does not care for guitar Masses or Charismatic services); prefers the older style hymns; do not like altar girls or inclusive language; usually will fast or abstain on Fridays- now and then. Will USUALLY only receive Communion in the mouth and sometimes kneeling. Also approves of Church doctrine concerning no women priests; as well as Her teachings regarding abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc.

Modern or Liberal Catholic:
Only observes the OF; prefers guitar Masses, (or other “experimental” type Masses); approves of altar girls and Communion in the hand while standing. This group varies wildly on which doctrines they approve or reject; typically referred to as “cafeteria Catholics.”

Of course, these are only “textbook” definitions; there will always be fuzzy overlaps between each group that certain people will fall into.

Hope this helps rather than hinders.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight1:

---

**Please recite the Rosary daily. Each bead; devoutly said; is an eternal rose presented to Jesus and Our Blessed Mother.

Be sure to read The Secret of the Rosary by Saint Louis de Montfort. It will change your life.

Pray to St. Jude. **

How are guitar masses experimental masses?

How does the choice of a musical instrument make it experimental?

You need to get out of the Developed and see how things are done in other countries.

 

[jwinch2]

You need to get out of the Developed and see how things are done in other countries.

If you go to a small country parish in Brazil, you will likely hear guitar, flute, accordion, etc. at Mass. It is very common. Even in larger city parishes it is common to see those instruments.

 

[daCatholicGuard]

How about someone who has studied a lot, if not many, of the teachings of the Church, including all councils, major papal encyclicals, and its ancient languages? I don’t think I fall into any one of your categories.

Greetings ProVobis, ByzCath, et al,

I was merely providing general outlines; which I clearly stated that I was- I ALSO said that there were fuzzy areas of overlap between each of the “textbook” categories that some people are going to fall into. I also openly disclosed that I was a Tridentine Roman Catholic; so you can safely assume that I am going to look at the OPs question from that perspective.

ProVobis and ByzCath, I do not mean to single you out; but rather comment on a general trend I’ve discovered in the brief period I’ve been visiting this site.

I think a fair number of the members here are a little too tightly wound. Some of you have to learn to relax a little and ENJOY your faith. Be grateful you’re a Catholic; pray to God for guidance, (as I do), stay in a State of Grace by going to Confession and Communion each week and be happy and content with that.

As a general rule, my visits to this site have done more to destroy my sense of peace than to enhance it.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C.

---

**Please recite the Rosary daily. Each bead; devoutly said; is an eternal rose presented to Jesus and Our Blessed Mother.

Be sure to read Secret of the Rosary by Saint Louis de Montfort. It will change your life.

Pray to St. Jude. **

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Greetings all,

I would break it down in this fashion:

Tridentine Catholic:
Observes only the EF Latin Mass; does not eat meat on Friday; women wear head coverings (and usually only dresses- no slacks/shorts); typically use only Pre-Vatican II hymnals. We ALWAYS receive Communion in the mouth while kneeling, (unless medical conditions restrict our ability to kneel). We approve of all current Church Doctrine concerning female priests, abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. We generally reject all the revisions of Vatican II that are not related to faith and morals issues. However, unlike the SSPX people; we still recognize the current pope and our local bishop. (BTW- this is my group).

Traditional Catholic:
Can observe either the EF or the OF Mass, (but does not care for guitar Masses or Charismatic services); prefers the older style hymns; do not like altar girls or inclusive language; usually will fast or abstain on Fridays- now and then. Will USUALLY only receive Communion in the mouth and sometimes kneeling. Also approves of Church doctrine concerning no women priests; as well as Her teachings regarding abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc.

Modern or Liberal Catholic:
Only observes the OF; prefers guitar Masses, (or other “experimental” type Masses); approves of altar girls and Communion in the hand while standing. This group varies wildly on which doctrines they approve or reject; typically referred to as “cafeteria Catholics.”

Of course, these are only “textbook” definitions; there will always be fuzzy overlaps between each group that certain people will fall into.

Hope this helps rather than hinders.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight1:

Wow…I know you said fuzzy overlaps…but geez…

Occording to your definition…I’m a modern or liberal Catholic I only observe the OF. I won’t say I prefer guitar Masses…but neither do I find them offensive. Old hymns, new hymns…doesn’t matter. I’m just fine with altar girls…but recognise the right of a priest not to use them (never had that happen). I always receive communion in the hand while standing…but always bow before receiving. The part that makes me mad is your statement " This group varies wildly on which doctrines they approve or reject; typically referred to as “cafeteria Catholics.”

Because I approve of Church doctrine concerning no women priests; as well as Her teachings regarding abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. That to me is a BIG fuzzy overlap.

You can understand while I would be upset by being grouped in with “cafeteria Catholics”…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Modern or Liberal Catholic:
Only observes the OF; prefers guitar Masses, (or other “experimental” type Masses); approves of altar girls and Communion in the hand while standing. This group varies wildly on which doctrines they approve or reject; typically referred to as “cafeteria Catholics.”

This is a very crude generalization. We can debate the merits or lack of it of CITH, standing for Communion, altar girls, EMHCs, etc, these are all Church-approved practices and should not take away one’s traditionalism or faithfulness to the Catholic faith. Why would you be any less of a Catholic for doing or accepting what the Church herself allows?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I prefer the label:

*** “Organically Formulated Catholic”***



Seriously all of these labels are beyond ridiculous.

 

[Big_Feet]

This is why I dislike the labeling some seem to be into.

All Faithful Catholics are Traditional, prefering one set of Church allowed options does not change that.

This is perfect!
I totaly agree with this!

 

[TrueLight]

This is perfect!
I totaly agree with this!

All faithful Catholics are not necessarily traditional.

If you are a faithful Catholic who thinks along these lines:

• Guitar music and rock masses are awesome;
• Gregorian Chant is boring
• Latin is in the past; let’s move forward (I’ve seen this said on the forum)
  – I don’t want to hear about fasting or abstaining aside from the required days.
• I like that my priest wants us to call him Father Bob instead of Father Smith.

You may be faithful to the Church, but are you a traditional Catholic?

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Being an orthodox Catholic does not make you a traditional Catholic, I’m afraid to say.

A traditional Catholic is:

I was on the Catholic Answers forum the other day doing some intellectual mortification when I came across the question of defining a “traditional Catholic”. The questioner writes:

Perhaps this has been covered somewhere else in this forum, but I couldn’t find anything that dircetly addressed it. What is the defintion of a “Traditonal Catholic”. Does this refer exclusively to practioners of a Latin Mass ,or does it encompass a set of values not believed to expressed in most of todays Catholic Churches?
It’s a very good question that is hard to answer. Broadly speaking, it’s a Catholic who goes to the Tridentine Latin Mass-- abbreviated here and elsewhere as the TLM. But it’s really more than that, it’s a cultural and theological point of view that goes hand-in-hand with the TLM but is not the same as a TLM-goer.

At this point, I’d like to make a note of capitalization: I refer here to traditional Catholics. It’s an adjective. Tradition with a “Capital-T” is the magesterial teaching of the Church and, though important, is not the subject of this post. If you use a Capital-T to write Traditional Catholics, you’ve created a whole new religion. Which does not apply to traditional Catholics. People who are are traditional Catholics are 100% Roman Catholics, just like any other Roman Catholics. These little things matter-- there’s a huge difference between being orthodox and Orthodox. Thankyouverymuch.

To that question, I gave a descriptive response that kind of skirted around the question:

A traditional Catholic is not a person who “prefers” the old Latin Mass. Neither are they people who simply passed Catechism class.

They are people who adhere to a type of spirituality that is largely lost in the 21st Century Catholic Church.

Truthfully, it’s easier to describe their outward signs than their character: the old Latin Mass is the biggest identifier… though there are certainly traditional Catholics who are marooned in Novus Ordoland; there are likewise non-traditional Catholics who go to the TLM.

Trads are people who listen to Catholic Radio… skeptically. They might have a blog. They can list their “top-five” favorite Ecumenical Councils… none of which will rhyme with “Attican Shoe”. Their friends think they’re fuddy-duddys. They’ve got Holy Water fonts in all the bedrooms and by the front door. They quote the Douay Rheims bible. They have an opinion on offering Mass in baroque vestments while in a gothic chapel. They’re tired of tinfoil hat jokes. They may not like Bishop Williamson, but concede that sometimes he’s right, and when he’s right, he’s really right. They can tell you about Assisi. When they’re at a Novus Ordo Mass, they’ve got their hands folded like a Catholic during the Our Father. The women have an extra mantilla in the van-- just in case. The men have an opinion on the best type of pipe tobacco for any occasion. The boys have their own cassock and surplice hanging in the closet. The girls know how to play Dies Irae on the organ. They wear a t-shirt while they go swimming so their brown scapular doesen’t float away. They’re willing to drive an hour to go to Mass… every Sunday. They know the confession times of at least 4 churches. They invite priests over to play cards and smoke cigars. They pray to saints that you think may not really exist. They ask you to finish the sentence when you say “John Paul the Great”… the great what? They might own a live chicken. When they’re at a Novus Ordo Mass, everyone watches them to figure out why they’re hitting themselves during the “Lamb of God”. They’re kneel after Mass to pray… and miss out on the fun gladhanding with Father by the parish gift shop. They scoff when they pass the Masonic Lodge. They cross themselves when they pass a Catholic church. They mutter something about the “poor souls” when they pass a cemetary. They mutter something about St. Michael when an ambulance passes them. Their girls’ first names are Mary. Their boys’ middle names are Mary. Cappa Magna doesn’t sound like a drink at Starbucks to them. They’ll tell you at length why being “charitable” isn’t always being nice and friendly.

It’s complicated. Trads are not easily defined. You just kind of know them when you see them.

fisheaters.com/ontraditionalcatholics.html

 

[MartyrForJesus]

All faithful Catholics are not necessarily traditional.

If you are a faithful Catholic who thinks along these lines:

• Guitar music and rock masses are awesome;
• Gregorian Chant is boring
• Latin is in the past; let’s move forward (I’ve seen this said on the forum)
  – I don’t want to hear about fasting or abstaining aside from the required days.
• I like that my priest wants us to call him Father Bob instead of Father Smith.

You may be faithful to the Church, but are you a traditional Catholic?

Rock music during Mass is a liturgical abuse, and it is a sin to not observe fasting on the required days. Apart from that, I think you are correct.

 

[Melchior_1]

• Fasting two days a week.
• Fasting before Mass for at least an hour.
• Confession once a week.
• Adoration.
• Devotional practices such as the Divine Mercy Chaplet.
• Receiving the Eucharist on the tongue.
• Doing some of the Breviary.
• Doing Lectio Divina,

Do these things make someone a “traditionalist”?

These guys do all of that.

I do all of those bullet points. Does that make me a traditionalist Catholic?

 

[MartyrForJesus]

• Fasting two days a week.
• Fasting before Mass for at least an hour.
• Confession once a week.
• Adoration.
• Devotional practices such as the Divine Mercy Chaplet.
• Receiving the Eucharist on the tongue.
• Doing some of the Breviary.
• Doing Lectio Divina,

Do these things make someone a “traditionalist”?

These guys do all of that.

I do all of those bullet points. Does that make me a traditionalist Catholic?

Some of those certainly are traditional practices, but do you fit the definition above posted?

 

[Melchior_1]

Some of those certainly are traditional practices, but do you fit the definition above posted?

The definition posted above? I meet most of them, yes. How many of those are required to hit in order to qualify as a traditional Catholic though? 70%? 80%? Are you less of a traditional Catholic if you’re don’t have Holy Water in your house?

What makes or breaks the traditional aspect?

But there’s four things I want to comment on:

First, though there are certainly traditional Catholics who are marooned in Novus Ordoland. I’d love an explanation of what this means, please.

Second, "They can list their “top-five” favorite Ecumenical Councils… none of which will rhyme with “Attican Shoe”. Vatican II is one of my Top Five* simply due to the mandate given to religous orders to go back to the charisms of their founders. It cannot be emphasized enough how important that was.

Third, why are different Rites not included in the definition provided? Or how about the different Uses?

Fourth, here’s one for you; there’s fewer things more traditional than joining a secular order. Making promises to follow a rule set forth by one of the great leaders of the Church. If you disagree then you may want to take it up with St. Pope Pius X, SFO. How come that isn’t in the definition?

**Top Five in no specific order:

• First Council of Jerusalem.
• Trent.
• Fourth Lateran.
• Vatican II
• Vatican I*

 

[MartyrForJesus]

The definition posted above? I meet most of them, yes. How many of those are required to hit in order to qualify as a traditional Catholic though? 70%? 80%? Are you less of a traditional Catholic if you’re don’t have Holy Water in your house?

What makes or breaks the traditional aspect?

But there’s four things I want to comment on:

First, though there are certainly traditional Catholics who are marooned in Novus Ordoland. I’d love an explanation of what this means, please.

Second, "They can list their “top-five” favorite Ecumenical Councils… none of which will rhyme with “Attican Shoe”. Vatican II is one of my Top Five* simply due to the mandate given to religous orders to go back to the charisms of their founders. It cannot be emphasized enough how important that was.

Third, why are different Rites not included in the definition provided? Or how about the different Uses?

Fourth, here’s one for you; there’s fewer things more traditional than joining a secular order. Making promises to follow a rule set forth by one of the great leaders of the Church. If you disagree then you may want to take it up with St. Pope Pius X, SFO. How come that isn’t in the definition?

**Top Five in no specific order:

• First Council of Jerusalem.
• Trent.
• Fourth Lateran.
• Vatican II
• Vatican I*

Let me just start off here. The term ‘traditional Catholic’ or more commonly ‘traditionalist’ refers to a mentality, best described with the definition above. It in no way suggests that a Catholic who does not adhere to the term is not traditional. Someone who enjoys and practices the traditions of the Church is not a ‘traditionalist Catholic’, even though they are traditional, simply because the term refers to a mentality, not a way a person practices their faith. For example, Mr. Joe might go to the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday, fast twice a week, pray the Rosary in Latin, and go to confession weekly, but he is not a ‘traditionalist Catholic’. He is traditional, yes, but he does not fit the term because he lacks the mentality. ‘Traditional Catholic’, and ‘Traditionalist’ or ‘Trad’ for short, are all used interchangeably. There is a reason traditionalists call themselves ‘trads’ often, to avoid confusion with people who are just traditional.

First, though there are certainly traditional Catholics who are marooned in Novus Ordoland. I’d love an explanation of what this means, please.

It was written as you can see by a traditionalist Catholic, and he/she means that there are many traditionalist Catholics who are ‘stuck’ attending the Novus Ordo, because they cannot attend a Traditional Latin Mass for one reason or another.

Second, "They can list their “top-five” favorite Ecumenical Councils… none of which will rhyme with “Attican Shoe”.

Yes, because traditionalist Catholics either dislike Vatican II itself or the results of Vatican II. Non-traditionalist Catholics can probably agree with traditionalist Catholics on the second point, however they would both probably disagree with the problems. E.g. a traditionalist would look at a guitar in Mass and condemn it as a bad result of Vatican II, whilst a non-traditional Catholic would have no problem with it, but they would both agree that the hymn, ‘Gather us in’ is one of the bad results.

Third, why are different Rites not included in the definition provided? Or how about the different Uses?

Because as I stated above, a ‘traditionalist Catholic’ is not someone who just enjoys and adheres to traditional practices and liturgies of the Church, it is a mentality. The people who adhere to that specific mentality attend the Traditional Latin Mass. The same applies to your fourth point.

God Bless.

 

[Melchior_1]

Because as I stated above, a ‘traditional Catholic’ is not someone who just enjoys and adheres to traditional practices and liturgies of the Church, it is a mentality. The people who adhere to that specific mentality attend the Traditional Latin Mass. The same applies to your fourth point.

God Bless.

This may be of interest to to you, considering the people who practice it. To Dominicans, if they actually practice their Rite which comes from the 1200’s, one could say they are being traditionalists.

Our current Holy Father must not be traditional, since he celebrates the Ordinary Form.