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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Usually being a son means coming from the father, so it would lead to thinking that first there was a father, then son came later from the father. Either spiritually or by the flesh.
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ralphinal
Guest
I know, but in this case, it is more helpful to see them as defining characteristics. Father is Creator, Son is Redeemer, Holy Spirit is Sanctifier. God the Father defines himself as such, and Jesus defines himself as Son. As Son, we see that he has all authority on earth and in heaven, including the power to forgive sins. He stated that before Abraham was “I Am” using the same description of his state that God did with Moses, meaning that he was the same essence as God. He is not the same as the Father, as the Father is the one who sent him to save and only the Father knows the time of the end.Usually being a son means coming from the father, so it would lead to thinking that first there was a father, then son came later from the father. Either spiritually or by the flesh.
I think that you are looking too literally at this issue. Overall, FoA, you seem to have a good grasp of when things are literal and when they are figurative. So far, it has helped you on here, at least when you reconcile Islam and Christianity. Be a little less literal this time.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
“He is not the same as the Father” is what makes it Arianism, a lesser Son deity subordinate to the Father deity.I know, but in this case, it is more helpful to see them as defining characteristics. Father is Creator, Son is Redeemer, Holy Spirit is Sanctifier. God the Father defines himself as such, and Jesus defines himself as Son. As Son, we see that he has all authority on earth and in heaven, including the power to forgive sins. He stated that before Abraham was “I Am” using the same description of his state that God did with Moses, meaning that he was the same essence as God. He is not the same as the Father, as the Father is the one who sent him to save and only the Father knows the time of the end.
I think that you are looking too literally at this issue. Overall, FoA, you seem to have a good grasp of when things are literal and when they are figurative. So far, it has helped you on here, at least when you reconcile Islam and Christianity. Be a little less literal this time.
If all through the NT Jesus never asked God for help to save his life or anything – if Jesus just acted like God Himself – then Trinity could be justified more, the one and only God Himself incarnated as a man.
But as it is, Arianism, with a greater deity and lesser deity, is still polytheism and not compatible with the command to have no other gods.
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ralphinal
Guest
But it is not polytheism. We only beleive in One God. There is no other God. Just Him. Arianism states that Jesus was created and that there was a time without him. We do not beleive that. He is not a lesser deity. When he prayed to God, note that he was talking to the Father. When he asked not to be crucified, it was the human talking, not the Deity. But, he subjugated his will to that of the Father.“He is not the same as the Father” is what makes it Arianism, a lesser Son deity subordinate to the Father deity.
If all through the NT Jesus never asked God for help to save his life or anything – if Jesus just acted like God Himself – then Trinity could be justified more, the one and only God Himself incarnated as a man.
But as it is, Arianism, with a greater deity and lesser deity, is still polytheism and not compatible with the command to have no other gods.
What do you want him to do to act like God? He healed the sick, cured the lame, gave hearing to the deaf and sight to the blind, he chastised the hypocrite, admonished the sinner, gave life to the dead, taught the truth, and he forgave sins. Even as a 12 year old, he taught with authority. He walked on water and calmed the storm. He told a tree to die and it did. What is missing in his actions?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I think Jesus acts like God, but still a human that God gives power to, a human that still prays to God and requires help from Him.When he asked not to be crucified, it was the human talking, not the Deity.
What do you want him to do to act like God?
We agree enough that Jesus rules like God over us so that it’s not a monstrous issue between me personally and the Christians. But that’s only because I can understand it in my own way, that Jesus was prophet who is given more power than any other man.
It doesn’t help Jews who think Trinity is the only way to view Jesus, so that’s why I am so against it, because it is one more thing that keeps them away from believing Jesus is Messiah and will only hurt them in the end.
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ralphinal
Guest
I do enjoy seeing how you think FoA. I really do.I think Jesus acts like God, but still a human that God gives power to, a human that still prays to God and requires help from Him.
We agree enough that Jesus rules like God over us so that it’s not a monstrous issue between me personally and the Christians. But that’s only because I can understand it in my own way, that Jesus was prophet who is given more power than any other man.
It doesn’t help Jews who think Trinity is the only way to view Jesus, so that’s why I am so against it, because it is one more thing that keeps them away from believing Jesus is Messiah and will only hurt them in the end.
With all respect to the Jews, I believe that they will be judged on how well they accept the grace God presents to them during their lives. There are lots of reasons a person, Jewish or otherwise, does not accept Jesus. God knows these reasons, and He will judge based on culpability.
By the way, you’ve mentioned that you are Native American. What tribe?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Choctaw.By the way, you’ve mentioned that you are Native American. What tribe?
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inJESUS
Guest
God has to create a new body according to the flesh of David, and God had to create a new human spirit while in that body in order to be tempted of sin as we are. The Bible is saying all that, I didn’t invent it. So you can’t bypass it unless you say the Bible is wrong and your tradition is right.
i bypass nothing. I say what the Bible clearly says : Jesus is the Creator. He created His own body to come to earth. His body was not created by humans, He did not need human seeds, thats why He has no father. He incarnated, He was not created from human seeds. God does not need our seeds if He decides to come as a human.
If Jesus got the flesh of Mary his mother to live in it as her son, why couldn’t he get the flesh of David his father to live in it as his son? See, there is no difference.
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inJESUS
Guest
the Son/Word always existed as the Father’s essence. There is no time when the Father was without Word/Wisdom. The Father begets the Word eternally = the Word proceeds from Him eternally.So I am asking, how can there be a Son who is God but was begotten of God therefore did not always exist as God?
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inJESUS
Guest
correct, but “time” was created by the Father and Son who exist before time…so time as humans understand it does not apply to God’s existence…there is no “time” when the Father was without Word/Wisdom…Usually being a son means coming from the father, so it would lead to thinking that first there was a father, then son came later from the father.
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inJESUS
Guest
“He is not the same as the Father” is what makes it Arianism, a lesser Son deity subordinate to the Father deity.
we do not teach this. He is the same in essence as the Father, being His eternal, uncreated Word who shared all the Father’s attributes as His Word, but He is not the Father because He proceeds from Him…
If all through the NT Jesus never asked God for help to save his life or anything – if Jesus just acted like God Himself – then Trinity could be justified more, the one and only God Himself incarnated as a man.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Well it seems like you are just ignoring Romans where it says that at least the body (if not the spirit) of Jesus was made from the seed of David according to the flesh.i bypass nothing. I say what the Bible clearly says : Jesus is the Creator. He created His own body to come to earth. His body was not created by humans, He did not need human seeds, thats why He has no father. He incarnated, He was not created from human seeds. God does not need our seeds if He decides to come as a human.
huge difference.
1-The Word “used” Mary’s body, so to speak, in order to come as a human. David, being a man, could give birth to no one so the Word wouldn’t use David’s body to incarnate.
2- for David to have a son, he must provide his seed and combine it with his woman’s egg, and create a baby hence the baby is created by humans’ seed…the baby will not exist without his father and mother…the baby depends on their seed to exist.
3- The Word’s body does not depend on humans’ seeds to exist. The Word’s body does not need a father and mother to exist.
The Word’s body is made by the Word Himself, is not the result of human intervention.Humans were only a means to come, not to exist. Hence the Word, and the Word in flesh, is not created but the Creator.
If you aren’t ignoring that, why does it matter if the body of Jesus was made from Mary’s flesh, or from the flesh of David’s son with Bathsheba, since both require children to be born of David’s flesh?
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inJESUS
Guest
I think Jesus acts like God, but still a human that God gives power to, a human that still prays to God and requires help from Him.
saying you are the Alpha and Omega is not acting like God. Saying you give peace the world cannot give is not acting like God. Saying you give the Holy Spirit to humans is not acting like God. Saying you give wisdom to humans is not acting like God. Saying i am the creator of everything is not acting like God.Saying you are omnipresent is not acting like God. It is blasphemy if Jesus is not God. No other prophet dared this any of this.
It doesn’t help Jews who think Trinity is the only way to view Jesus, so that’s why I am so against it, because it is one more thing that keeps them away from believing Jesus is Messiah and will only hurt them in the end.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Jesus cried for God to save him, so he was lesser in power than God. You can’t ignore this either unless you teach that the Bible is nonsense and your tradition overrides it.we do not teach this. He is the same in essence as the Father, being His eternal, uncreated Word who shared all the Father’s attributes as His Word, but He is not the Father because He proceeds from Him…
FOA: If all through the NT Jesus never asked God for help to save his life or anything – if Jesus just acted like God Himself – then Trinity could be justified more, the one and only God Himself incarnated as a man.
but that’s not true, this is why the belief that Jesus is the Father was and is rejected. Jesus proceeds from the Father, He is not the Father…the Spirit is not the Father but proceeds from the Father but the Word and Spirit of the Father are the Father in essence . Father and His Word and His Spirit are unseperable, they exist eternally as God who created everything through His Word and Spirit.
So this makes for two unequal deities which is Arianism if you insist Jesus was a deity, and not just a prophet filled with God’s Spirit.
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he (JESUS) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (GOD) that was able to save him (JESUS) from death, and was heard in that he feared;
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inJESUS
Guest
Well it seems like you are just ignoring Romans where it says that at least the body (if not the spirit) of Jesus was made from the seed of David according to the flesh.
Romans was written by the same Paul who says Jesus is the Creator.
As to “the seed of David according to the flesh” : No one denies Jesus is a human as well, and no one denies He is the son of David ( in a thousand way) but we reject your interpretation because it opposes who Jesus says He is : David’s Lord not his son. Seems you are ignoring that Jesus Himself says He is not his son because He created Him.
why does it matter if the body of Jesus was made from Mary’s flesh, or from the flesh of David’s son with Bathsheba, since both require children to be born of David’s flesh?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Romans was written by the same Paul who says Jesus is the Creator.
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inJESUS
Guest
Jesus cried for God to save him, so he was lesser in power than God.
the Word of God who created everything has lesser power than God? or are you talking about the second nature, the flesh? we do not teach that Jesus is a acting as a man but is a true man. In the same token, you’d say Jesus needed food so He is lesser in power than God. Jesus needed to rest so He is lesser than God in power. Jesus was anxious so He is lesser than God in power. Yet Jesus says : **whatever **the Father does, that the Son does likewise.In other words, i have the power to do everything as the Word of God, as God.
You can’t ignore this either unless you teach that the Bible is nonsense and your tradition overrides it.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I teach Jesus was a true man too, and that the Spirit of God dwelling with his human spirit is the same as God dwelling with human prophets.the Word of God who created everything has lesser power than God? or are you talking about the second nature, the flesh? we do not teach that Jesus is a acting as a man but is a true man. In the same token, you’d say Jesus needed food so He is lesser in power than God. Jesus needed to rest so He is lesser than God in power. Jesus was anxious so He is lesser than God in power. Yet Jesus says : **whatever **the Father does, that the Son does likewise.In other words, i have the power to do everything as the Word of God, as God.
Son of God is a euphemism for the Messiah, it doesn’t refer to deity.but doesn’t Hebrews say:
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, **but **in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Eh. All this is about is just not acknowledging that the human flesh and spirit of the man Jesus was, drumroll please…a real man that God created, then dwelled in as a prophet.Jesus being the creator of the universe cannot be a mere prophet since the passage differentiates between prophets and Jesus the Creator, the Son, the Word.
Picking and choosing leads to Islam, Arianism, Gnosticism and other heresies.
So we are just going in circles.
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inJESUS
Guest
inJESUS;3209034:
1-Romans does not mean what you want it to mean, because the same author says Jesus is David’s creator, not his son, **as Jesus says…**so in order for Paul to mean your interpretation, then he was mistaken when he said Jesus is the Creator, not a creature. Yet Hebews and John say the same. Since your interpretation means that Jesus is created by humans’ seeds, and could not come except if humans provided his body, and since it opposes other scriptures, then your interpretation is wrong.All spirits aside…
Do you acknowledge that the body and flesh of Jesus was taken and made from a person who was descended from David – be it Mary or otherwise, as Romans says? Or not?
2- When God decides to come as a human, He creates His own body, He does not need humans. Humans are a means of His coming as a man, not the reason. Only He creates His own body, be it an angel, burning bush (OT), or human (NT). in the same way no human created His angelic form, no human created His human form.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Well then you seem to trash every Messianic prophecy that says Messiah is a son from David’s seed with your tradition by saying that Jesus didn’t have David’s blood running through his veins.1-Romans does not mean what you want it to mean, because the same author says Jesus is David’s creator, not his son, **as Jesus says…**so in order for Paul to mean your interpretation, then he was mistaken when he said Jesus is the Creator, not a creature. Yet Hebews and John say the same. Since your interpretation means that Jesus is created by humans’ seeds, and could not come except if humans privided his body, and since it opposes other scriptures, then your interpretation is wrong.
2- When God decides to come as a human, He creates His own body, He does not need humans. Humans are a means of His fleshly existence, not the reason of His fleshly existence. Only He creates His own body, be it an angel, burning bush (OT), or human (NT). in the same way no human created His angelic form, no human created His human form.
When it says “made according to the flesh” that’s what it means, made as a descendant of David, not just according to the spirit. Read his discussions with Nicodemus to see the difference.
I mean do you see the Bible as being authoritative, or only tradition? If you don’t accept what the Bible says then we’re not only not on the same page but not even in the same book, so there’s no point in discussing it further.
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