Can an all-powerful God make a rock so big

[jimmy]

Gordon N:

I understand what it is that you are saying. I am having a hard time verbalizing my thought, and may have misrepresented myself (a easy thing for me to do!)

My point is that we cannot apply our logic system to God.

My one disagreement with your reply is this:

I do not believe that we even rate to constuct a sentence that contains the words “God” and “cannot” together. Stating that God cannot do something is questioning his omnipotence. Can you enlighten me with your thoughts please? I have not read the texts that you reference, and am going solely from my own logic.

Peace,
Gordon

I agree we can not apply our logic to God. God created our logic.

What exactly do you want me to explain more? The idea that God is immutable? The idea that God would change his nature would imply that there is some imperfection in his nature that would require the change. Either he would be becoming imperfect, or he would be coming from a less perfect state.

The thing about God is that he is eternal. Eternity is not a time based statement. It is a word that is independant and outside of time. While we have a past, a present, and a future, God only has a present. Our past, present and future are all in God’s present. In eternity, there is no change. Change is something that happens in time.

 

[Luke-Jr]

DeFide:

God is perfect and immutable. God is pure act. If he could change, He’d either be changing from a state of less than perfection or to a state of less than perfection, and then He wouldn’t be God.

God defines perfection and truth. Also, just because God can do something does not mean that He will.

 

[Liberian]

DeFide:

Perhaps it’d be easier to use an example that can be readily imagined:

Can God make a triangle with 4 sides?

Answer: No. God cannot be self-contradictory. A triangle with 4 sides is meaningless. (So is an object of infinite mass, since only God is infinite).

We could carry it a step futher and say that truth cannot be self-contradictory.

I have tried to expunge the phrase “God cannot” from my vocabulary. My answer would be that God is not bound by logic–although I have absolutely no idea how He would go about doing any of this nonsensical stuff. Most of the time I have more important things to worry about.

• Liberian

 

[mlchance]

“Can God make a triangle with four sides” is a lot like the old “What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?”

If an irresistible force exists, there is no such thing as an immovable object. The existence of one precludes the existence of the other.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JimG]

Gordon N:

I do not believe that we even rate to constuct a sentence that contains the words “God” and “cannot” together.

How about this one: God cannot cease to exist.

In considering this one, also consider:
Non-existence is not a limitation.
The principle of non-contradiction is not a limitation.
God’s essence (i.e. his nature) is existence.

God gave mankind intellect and will, so that we could know him and love him. He created our intellect to be able to understand reality. God is not in conflict with reality.

I second the recommendation for Frank Sheed’s books: either “Theology and Sanity,” or “Theology for Beginners.”

 

[Huiou_Theou]

God is not the author of contradiction.

God cannot make a 4-sided triangle.
He cannot make a rock too heavy for Him to lift.
He cannot make a square circle.
He cannot commit suicide.

Why?

Because all of those are self contradictions. They are meaningless. They are nothings. And nothing IS impossible to God.
Reply With Quote

Hmmm …

I like to say that God can do all that can be done.
Not, that God can only do what we know can be done.

For example, god created everything ex nihilo – out of nothing.
None of us can do that, but God can.

There are some things God cannot do, as he has revealed himself:

Mark3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mark3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mark3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mark3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mark3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

Jesus is a king, so there is one thing Jesus cannot do – be Satan as he walked the earth. More importantly, the statement shows that God who is ‘one’ cannot be divided. He is unity, he cannot be disunity.

There is no difference between something which WILL NEVER in any circumsance do X, and something which can not do X.
In both cases there is an underlying reason that the event will not happen, and that is the meaning of can not.

There are some things God can not do, becasue he never will do them.

2Tim2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Titus1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Jas1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas1:14 But every man is tempted,… ( incarnation ).

God cannot be all evil, and do all Good. God IS Good.

 

[JimG]

Huiou Theou:

Hmmm …

I like to say that God can do all that can be done.
Not, that God can only do what we know can be done.

I agree with that. God can do anything, but he cannot do nothing. I was simply pointing out that it is logically possible to use the verb “cannot” in a sentence with “God” as the subject.

Here’s another one: God cannot do evil.

The danger is that if we disregard rules of logic (again–these are God’s rules, the rules of reality) when thinking about God, we turn theology into mere new age magic.

 

[Luke-Jr]

JimG:

God cannot do evil.

I’d argue that He can, but won’t. Humans can certainly do evil, are they more powerful than God?

JimG:

The danger is that if we disregard rules of logic (again–these are God’s rules, the rules of reality) when thinking about God, we turn theology into mere new age magic.

God is not restricted by His creations, including logic. However, God gave us logic so we could understand reality, therefore… violating the logic that He created would defeat its purpose, so I do not believe He would choose to do so.

God is able to do everything, but that does not mean that He chooses to.

 

[JimG]

It is not simply a matter of God choosing not to do evil, even though his will is directed toward infinite love. God is pure goodness. There is no evil in him. Evil, in fact, could be defined as the absence of God.

It is rather a matter of God’s essence–his nature.

God’s nature is simply “to be.”
Further, all of his “qualities” --goodness, omnipotence, holiness, mercy–are not simply add-on’s. They also are of his essence. God’s mercy is his justice which is his goodness.

If God can, but does not, “choose” to do evil, then you have the absured situation of a god who is “potentially” evil.

And God has no potentiality whatsoever.

Once again, I recommend Frank Sheed.

 

[scylla]

I can make a triangle with 4 sides.

http://www.drinkwaters.com/drink1/graphics/products/xsWooden_Triangle.gif

also good for pool.

Seriously though, the rock question is designed to really just test you and try to prove negative point.

I believe you shouldn’t put the Lord your God to the test, but in order to answer the question, I believe if God wills it He can limit his unlimited power. He was able to become a baby, He can do what He wants.

But God does what He wants for a purpose. We shouldn’t question God or try to define God in our terms as it will be a mystery until the inevitable for each of us happens. Then if we still really are worried about it we might have a chance to ask.

Scylla

%between%

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I agree with that. God can do anything, but he cannot do nothing. I was simply pointing out that it is logically possible to use the verb “cannot” in a sentence with “God” as the subject.

Arf … you got me… ack. Choooke.
Dang right between the eyes. Good shot!

but he still can re-do nothing.

God is able to do everything, but that does not mean that He chooses to.

Actually I do agree with Jim, but I also find it a moot point.
God NEVER will choose to do evil, even though he knows what it is/isn’t, so that is as good as saying he isn’t able to do evil.
God cannot do evil.

I’d argue that He can, but won’t. Humans can certainly do evil, are they more powerful than God?

Even when God became man, incarnate, capable of potentiality – he could not sin because he never will. The temptation was doomed to failure. There is something intrinsic to God, as Jim has said, which means he never ever will, and therefore can’t sin.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hey, how about a silly example/thought.

God said let there be light – and there was.

Now, think about this – reality IS what God says it is.
If God says something is Good – that becomes (be).

If God COULD have a nightmare and cry out in his sleep ----
you get the picture?

I don’t believe that is possible.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Errata: Evil does not always mean sin. I meant to say sin, where I said evil. The term evil is slightly ambiguous. (it can mean just very unpleasant, or something like that under wierd circumstances. )

Eg. Is-ra-el = man - does evil - to God.

It just means Jacob got the better of a wrestling match which God let him win with an angel – God had promised him the blessing anyway.