Can an Eastern Catholic parish be put up

[jmcrae]

The Greek Orthodox I know have started a church in the Philippines, so I’m wondering if an Eastern Catholic Rite can come in even though there are no (maybe very few) Eastern Catholics in the country.

Well, like I said, there would have to be some kind of incentive for them to do so. It’s not permitted, to operate a parish at a financial loss, as you know. Even doing so by accident incurs severe penalties; going into an untenable situation on purpose would be even worse.

Normally, yes. I guess sometimes its just a case of the grass being always greener on the other side. Reminds me this morning I saw on Family Feud. One family from Minessota wants to go to California for a vacation if they win. The other family from Florida wants to go to Alaska if they win. I just laughed out loud.

I personally believe that Eastern Catholicism has a lot of offer back home. Filipinos are deeply religious but many are disillusioned with the faith. Not because of the faith itself or the Church, but how things are in the country.

That’s understandable. I’m not sure why it is that predominantly Catholic countries seem to attract corrupt governments.

Adhereing to another tradition of the same faith might be the fresh start a lot of people are looking for in the faith, and its not like they’re actually changing faiths, but the new traditions sure would make it feel new to them and also get them more interested.

There are lots of other ways to achieve the same effect - for example, monasteries could be opened up and people invited to do forty-day retreats, or the people could be invited to participate in Third Orders of Carmelites or Franciscans, if they feel the need for a more demanding practice of their faith - fasting twice a week instead of only once, for example.

(For some reason, fasting is not required at all in the Philippines, and a lot of Filipinos in Canada are unaware of the laws of fasting in the Latin Rite - perhaps these could be re-introduced in that country, and the people would feel more challenged to a higher calling.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Where would these Eastern Catholics come from?

Are you asking if there are any Eastern Catholics on CAF who will travel out to where you live and build an Eastern Catholic Church there?

Anywhere in the world in fact. That is why I brought up Missions. I now live in Canada where there are many Eastern Catholic churches easily accessible. But I know this is not true everywhere in the world, even in places where there are Catholics. Thus my question.

My apologies. Unfortunately, some people are so I just wanted to be absolutely clear about that aspect.

I try my best to learn
I must say I’ve already learned a lot in this thread

This is something you would have to ask them.

Considerations that they would have to take into account would be, the initial cost of building, the cost of upkeep, and what return they would get in the way of interest, and whether the existing local community would welcome them or even support them at all.

Good point. I’m sure there are plenty who are curious, but enough to sustain a parish I would not know.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, like I said, there would have to be some kind of incentive for them to do so. It’s not permitted, to operate a parish at a financial loss, as you know. Even doing so by accident incurs severe penalties; going into an untenable situation on purpose would be even worse.

Once it catches on it won’t have a problem of finances. I know from my business knowledge, its not that simple, a lot of feasibilty studies for the economic side of it. But I am just wondering about the idea, not actually conducting a real-life project so I just want to learn the high level part.

That’s understandable. I’m not sure why it is that predominantly Catholic countries seem to attract corrupt governments.

I have a theory. I think the Spanish government of the time did a poor job of controlling their governor generals of far away lands. Abuses were abound. Back then it was months before word got back to Spain and then back to the Philippines. Essentially, becoming a governor general or any government official far away from the mother land was a free ticket to become your own king. Some people blame it on Catholicism, I believe its purely coincidental. Its just had to distinguish because the Spanish took Catholicism with them. Sadly, the corruption of the government also may have affected the Church.

There are lots of other ways to achieve the same effect - for example, monasteries could be opened up and people invited to do forty-day retreats, or the people could be invited to participate in Third Orders of Carmelites or Franciscans, if they feel the need for a more demanding practice of their faith - fasting twice a week instead of only once, for example.

There are many retreat facilities in the Philippines. Not sure if people there are interested. I guess first things first, people have to be interested in the faith again more than just the regular Sunday appearance at church.

(For some reason, fasting is not required at all in the Philippines, and a lot of Filipinos in Canada are unaware of the laws of fasting in the Latin Rite - perhaps these could be re-introduced in that country, and the people would feel more challenged to a higher calling.)

Fasting is required in the Philippines, at least when I was growing up. I guess having devout parents and growing up in a Catholic school helped me a lot. But most wouldn’t. One problem of the country is the poor quality of Catechisis. That I want to do something about, but I do not know what I can do from here.

 

[Aramis]

The Greek Orthodox I know have started a church in the Philippines, so I’m wondering if an Eastern Catholic Rite can come in even though there are no (maybe very few) Eastern Catholics in the country.

If a Greek Orthodox (or Russian Orthodox, for last I checked, there was one RO mission in the PI) converts, they are automatically Eastern Catholics. If a couple families converted, they could petition for a mission of the Greek Church Sui Iuris or the Russian Church Sui Iuris.

So it is possible for there to be an EC mission justified on the basis of an extant EC tradition. That said, many GO or RO who convert don’t wish to retain the GO or RO liturgical praxis… being drawn instead by the RC praxis.

 

[jmcrae]

I have a theory. I think the Spanish government of the time did a poor job of controlling their governor generals of far away lands. Abuses were abound. Back then it was months before word got back to Spain and then back to the Philippines. Essentially, becoming a governor general or any government official far away from the mother land was a free ticket to become your own king. Some people blame it on Catholicism, I believe its purely coincidental. Its just had to distinguish because the Spanish took Catholicism with them. Sadly, the corruption of the government also may have affected the Church.

And yet the British Empire didsn’t seem to have encountered these problems. There were other problems, of course, but for the most part, countries governed by English colonial governments seem to have been very accountable, and very orderly.

Fasting is required in the Philippines, at least when I was growing up.

You wouldn’t know it, around here. They even have traditional dinner parties on Good Friday - and apparently the traditional food of Good Friday is roast pork.

I was invited to oneof these parties, and I was surprised to see them eating roast pork on a day of fasting and abstinence. I just drank tea, and when they asked why I wasn’t eating, I explained to them, In Canada, it is the law that we are to fast entirely from all food on Good Friday, and for those unable to fast (children and the elderly, for example) to abstain from all meat of every kind. They were quite astonished; they were very devout Catholics from the Philippines, but they had never heard of such a thing, before. There were three generations of the same family present, and none of them had ever heard of it.

I guess having devout parents and growing up in a Catholic school helped me a lot. But most wouldn’t. One problem of the country is the poor quality of Catechisis. That I want to do something about, but I do not know what I can do from here.

The best thing is to be as good an example as you can be, to those around you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And yet the British Empire didsn’t seem to have encountered these problems. There were other problems, of course, but for the most part, countries governed by English colonial governments seem to have been very accountable, and very orderly.

Yup. Although a lot of people forget that half of the former British Empire also are developing nations, although they did produce a lot of First World Nations. I can’t recall a former Spanish colony that’s first world. Even the leading South American Economy is the only nation not colonized by Spain there.

You wouldn’t know it, around here. They even have traditional dinner parties on Good Friday - and apparently the traditional food of Good Friday is roast pork.

And they’re Catholics? People my age (I’m 34) should remember well enough how Holy Week was celebrated even as recent as 15-20 years ago. The country virtually shut down by Holy Thursday. Nothing was open. The only thing you can do is stay home or go to Church. Even TV stations and radio stations shut down from Holy Thursday to Holy Saturday. A couple of TV stations would partially broadcast, but only to air a live coverage of “Seven Last Words” which is the traditional Good Friday service in the Philippines. They would usually find one of the major churches and cover it live. Then in the evening they will start airing religious programming, such as movies like The Ten Commandments and Jesus of Nazareth. Even non-Catholics would know its Holy Week because the country transforms. So I don’t know where they got that. Unless they really hated not having meat during Lent and now they are in a country that doesn’t remind you about it. Thats one thing I miss in the Philippines. During lent, even burger joints would have fish burgers. Here in Canada I had to drive to DQ once and although the online menu said they had a fish sandwich, they didn’t carry one.

I was invited to oneof these parties, and I was surprised to see them eating roast pork on a day of fasting and abstinence. I just drank tea, and when they asked why I wasn’t eating, I explained to them, In Canada, it is the law that we are to fast entirely from all food on Good Friday, and for those unable to fast (children and the elderly, for example) to abstain from all meat of every kind. They were quite astonished; they were very devout Catholics from the Philippines, but they had never heard of such a thing, before. There were three generations of the same family present, and none of them had ever heard of it.

I really cannot explain it any further. Every Catholic I’ve met knows the rule. Not all of them follow it, but they are aware of it. I guess I’m not as poorly Catechized as I thought.

The best thing is to be as good an example as you can be, to those around you.

Well, now that I’m in Canada, they won’t see my example no matter how good it is.

 

[Vico]

…
You wouldn’t know it, around here. They even have traditional dinner parties on Good Friday - and apparently the traditional food of Good Friday is roast pork.

…They were quite astonished; they were very devout Catholics from the Philippines, but they had never heard of such a thing, before. There were three generations of the same family present, and none of them had ever heard of it.

…

I saw photos of the Philippines celebrations on Good Friday (a major holiday there). Seafarers are exempt from the fasting rules, as are laborers and poor people. I have read that Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are to be one meal a day there and meatless, though.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I saw photos of the Philippines celebrations on Good Friday (a major holiday there). Seafarers are exempt from the fasting rules, as are laborers and poor people. I have read that Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are to be one meal a day there and meatless, though.

Are you talking about legit celebrations or those who have themselves crucified in a reenactment?

 

[Vico]

Are you talking about legit celebrations or those who have themselves crucified in a reenactment?

Well, I have seen those photos, but on Wikiphilipinas there are some photos in the Church. Tenebrae (darkness) and Tre Ore (three hours or our Lord’s Passion) which are traditional and approved Catholic devotions on Good Friday.

en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Good_Friday

 

[crazzeto]

Why not? Many do that all the time. I’ve been dying to get the Divine Liturgy into my schedule for at least once a month.

I was just thinking, how can Eastern Churches expand beyond its ethnic membership. The population growth by intermarriage is small. In places like North America, the Catholic population is growing but mainly because of immigration. Most migrants are coming from Latin Rite countries like Mexico, Philippines and other South American countries. I guess this comes from my thoughts about what does the Church do to ensure the Eastern traditions are preserved.

A Roman Rite catholic can visit an Eastern parish on occation to experience a different litururgy if they wish. But as stated you can’t flip flop about with rites. You couldn’t for instance get married in the Eastern church, or have a child baptised. You would have to do that in yourr Roman rite home parish. Unless you convince the church you have a serious enough reason to switch. In which case you’d no longer be able to participate in said sacraments in your native parish.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A Roman Rite catholic can visit an Eastern parish on occation to experience a different litururgy if they wish. But as stated you can’t flip flop about with rites. You couldn’t for instance get married in the Eastern church, or have a child baptised. You would have to do that in yourr Roman rite home parish. Unless you convince the church you have a serious enough reason to switch. In which case you’d no longer be able to participate in said sacraments in your native parish.

From what I have learned about Eastern Catholicism so far, I think it will fit a lot of Filipinos more than Roman Catholicism. I could be wrong, but just right now its my gut feeling.

 

[jmcrae]

From what I have learned about Eastern Catholicism so far, I think it will fit a lot of Filipinos more than Roman Catholicism. I could be wrong, but just right now its my gut feeling.

Why? (And which Rite? I have a hard time picturing any of my Filipino friends learning Greek, Russian, or Ukrainian. Aramaic, maybe? Coptic?

Nor can I picture them undergoing the much more severe disciplines of the Eastern Rites - the ones I know love to party, and they love Christmas - I don’t think you could really take those things away from them.

 

[gmcbroom]

Crazzeto,
I don’t think you’re one hundred percent accurate on that last statement concerning the sacraments. Obviously, if your Roman and you go to say a Maronite Church for Holy Crowning, or baptism, they may not grant it due to a different suri irius. However, The rite of extreme unction or to go to Divine Liturgy that you can attend. As for extreme cases such as immanent danger of death then then I think the rules may allow for it. Of course I may be completely out of line but I don’t think so.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why? (And which Rite? I have a hard time picturing any of my Filipino friends learning Greek, Russian, or Ukrainian. Aramaic, maybe? Coptic?

Nor can I picture them undergoing the much more severe disciplines of the Eastern Rites - the ones I know love to party, and they love Christmas - I don’t think you could really take those things away from them.

True. Well, like I said, its just my gut feeling. I’m not implying the entire country will make a Canonical shift. I just think there’s a good number of people who would respond well to the Eastern view of the teachings.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Crazzeto,
I don’t think you’re one hundred percent accurate on that last statement concerning the sacraments. Obviously, if your Roman and you go to say a Maronite Church for Holy Crowning, or baptism, they may not grant it due to a different suri irius. However, The rite of extreme unction or to go to Divine Liturgy that you can attend. As for extreme cases such as immanent danger of death then then I think the rules may allow for it. Of course I may be completely out of line but I don’t think so.

They will also allow it if you do not have reasonable access to a parish of your Canonical Rite and/or sui juris.

 

[Vico]

There are some differences in sacramental discipline that have to be followed for Latin Catholics receiving the sacraments (with permission) in an Eastern Catholic Church. The order, instruction, and age must be followed proper to the Church of ascription, even when receiving in a different ritual Church:

Latin, and some Eastern, includes training for each step after baptism:

1. Baptism
2. First Penance (discretion age)
3. First Eucharist (after first penance)
4. Confirmation (after first communion till 16) - normally by the bishop

Most Eastern:

1. Baptism, Chrismation, First Eucharist (infant or adult) - bishop not required
2. First Confession (discretion age or after the previous)

Free to receive in different ritual Church, if already initiated: Eucharist and Confession.

There are differences in the marriage laws that complicate reception in a different ritual Church. (Example: an Eastern Catholic must be married by the priest, not a deacon, of the same ritual Church as the groom.)

Permissions are normally required for initiation and matrimony.

Also premission is normally required for annointing which belongs to your (same ritural Church) pastor.

Then Holy Orders is only of the same ritual Church.

 

[crazzeto]

Crazzeto,
I don’t think you’re one hundred percent accurate on that last statement concerning the sacraments. Obviously, if your Roman and you go to say a Maronite Church for Holy Crowning, or baptism, they may not grant it due to a different suri irius. However, The rite of extreme unction or to go to Divine Liturgy that you can attend. As for extreme cases such as immanent danger of death then then I think the rules may allow for it. Of course I may be completely out of line but I don’t think so.

Even the unbaptised my baptise validily per canon law, baptism is the losest such sacrament. As you say, it must be an emergency however, in that case all things being equal there’s really no difference between what you describe, and grabbing a bottle of water at the hospital in an extreme emergency case.

In either case, the baptism is not to be performed unless there is some such exceptional reason to do so outside of your rite (indeed parish).

 

[crazzeto]

There are some differences in sacramental discipline that have to be followed for Latin Catholics receiving the sacraments (with permission) in an Eastern Catholic Church. The order, instruction, and age must be followed proper to the Church of ascription, even when receiving in a different ritual Church:

Latin, and some Eastern, includes training for each step after baptism:

1. Baptism
2. First Penance (discretion age)
3. First Eucharist (after first penance)
4. Confirmation (after first communion till 16) - normally by the bishop

Most Eastern:

1. Baptism, Chrismation, First Eucharist (infant or adult) - bishop not required
2. First Confession (discretion age or after the previous)

Free to receive in different ritual Church, if already initiated: Eucharist and Confession.

There are differences in the marriage laws that complicate reception in a different ritual Church. (Example: an Eastern Catholic must be married by the priest, not a deacon, of the same ritual Church as the groom.)

Permissions are normally required for initiation and matrimony.

Also premission is normally required for annointing which belongs to your (same ritural Church) pastor.

Then Holy Orders is only of the same ritual Church.

I’m not sure that a Latin Catholic necessarly need special permission to attend a non-latin (in commuion with Rome) Catholic mass. I guess I would have to look taht up, but as I understand it, the situation is not similar to how we handle the E. Orthodox (in their case, such permission would only be granted given certain necessity).

At least if what we’re talking about is just “visiting” the parish for a mass.

 

[Vico]

I’m not sure that a Latin Catholic necessarly need special permission to attend a non-latin (in commuion with Rome) Catholic mass. I guess I would have to look taht up, but as I understand it, the situation is not similar to how we handle the E. Orthodox (in their case, such permission would only be granted given certain necessity).

At least if what we’re talking about is just “visiting” the parish for a mass.

You can do it.

Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

Can. 991 All Christ’s faithful are free to confess their sins to lawfully approved confessors of their own choice, even to one of another rite.

Can. 923 Christ’s faithful may participate in the eucharistic Sacrifice and receive holy communion in any catholic rite, without prejudice to the provisions of can. 844.

 

[croix_de_fer]

If you are interested in the Eastern Rite then just attend their Mass and learn their Liturgy. A formal process of becoming Eastern Rite Catholic is not necessary unless you want to become an Eastern Rite priest or other consecrated apostolate. We are all Catholic, therefore we can attend each others Mass. You do not have to go through a formal process of being an Eastern Rite Catholic just to attend their Mass or participate in their Liturgy, prayers or spirituality.