Can anyone start a church, and call it the church founded by Jesus Christ?

[John1]

Show me the chapter and verse where Jesus preached againstthe Church and I will leave the Catholic Church today and become a Protestant.

In Matthew 16:6 and 16:11 Jesus warns his disciples to be on gaurd against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees. His disciples understood this to mean to be on gaurd against the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. I don’t want you to leave the Catholic Church! Why would you even make such a comment? I just want you to recognize that obvious animosity toward our Protestant brothers in Christ is unacceptable and against the will of God! You can’t constantly demean a whole group of Christians and expect anybody to believe you care anything at all about the love of brotherly fellowship! It’s not about being Catholic or Protestant, it’s about being a Christian!

You have my solemn word on that.

Your word should just be your word, you shouldn’t need to qualify it, just let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no.

And Paul was right. BUT he was speaking about individuals – NOT about leaving the Church, which he himself called the Fullness of Christ (1 Eph. 22-23) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

Paul was saying not to have anything to do with a corrupt Christian. I think that the Reformers thought that the leadership of the Catholic Church at that time was corrupt and therefore not valid as leadership. Much the way that Sedevacantist, SSPX, Conclavist, and other splinter groups of the Catholic Church view the lpresent leadership of the Catholic Church!

The fullness of Christ and the pillar and foundation of truth CANNOT fall into error. For you to even imply that is to say that Christ himself is in error.

What! No way! Are you saying that the Body of believers in Christ, which is the Church, is unable to make a mistake! We have ample evidence in the Bible that believers made mistakes, even Peter himself had to be corrected! When exactly did you become infallible? It sounds like you put worship of the Body, above worship of the Head. Christ is never in error my friend, never was or will be! Christians are being formed into the image of Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit, but you and I are no where near perfect Christian!

I challenge you to produce one single doctrinal error that the Church ever declared - just ONE, and I will leave the Church today and become Protestant.

I’ll leave that one alone.

No you don’t.
If you did – you wouldn’t advocate leaving the Church for ANY reason.

I’ve never advocated leaving the Church!!! What I advocate is Christian unity, love, and botherly fellowship with all Christians!!!

Wrong.
The Church consists of those who are baptized into it and follow its teachings (Luke 10:16, 2 Thess. 2:15).

The Body is made up of people that confess that Jesus is the Christ, just as Peter did, then they are baptized into the Body and the they receive the Holy Spirit, or some receive the Holy Spirit and are then baptized. It’s the Holy Spirit that teaches us about Christ, and we as Christians can fellowship and share what the Spirit of Truth teaches! 1 John 2:25 says: “I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”

Remember – even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Are THEY part of the Church?

WHERE do you get your ideas from? CERTAINLY not from Christ’s Church or the Bible.

Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? Mark 8:18-----

 

[elvisman]

In Matthew 16:6 and 16:11 Jesus warns his disciples to be on gaurd against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees. His disciples understood this to mean to be on gaurd against the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees. I don’t want you to leave the Catholic Church! Why would you even make such a comment? I just want you to recognize that obvious animosity toward our Protestant brothers in Christ is unacceptable and against the will of God! You can’t constantly demean a whole group of Christians and expect anybody to believe you care anything at all about the love of brotherly fellowship! It’s not about being Catholic or Protestant, it’s about being a Christian!

I was using hyperbole to get my point across to you because you’re still not getting it.

My point is that IF the Catholic Church is teaching falsehood – as you claim it is – then I don’t want to have anything to do with it. The Church MUST be the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) – or it is not a valid Church.

Can’t you understand that from the Scriptures?

Paul was saying not to have anything to do with a corrupt Christian. I think that the Reformers thought that the leadership of the Catholic Church at that time was corrupt and therefore not valid as leadership. Much the way that Sedevacantist, SSPX, Conclavist, and other splinter groups of the Catholic Church view the lpresent leadership of the Catholic Church!

Jesus NEVER said to leave the Church if you had a problem with it.** Your approval of the Protestant formula for correcting wrongs within the Church speaks volumes** about your misunderstanding of the Scriptures.

What! No way! Are you saying that the Body of believers in Christ, which is the Church, is unable to make a mistake! We have ample evidence in the Bible that believers made mistakes, even Peter himself had to be corrected! When exactly did you become infallible? It sounds like you put worship of the Body, above worship of the Head. Christ is never in error my friend, never was or will be! Christians are being formed into the image of Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit, but you and I are no where near perfect Christian!

Wrong again. The Church cannot err in matter of the faith and morals.
The mistake Peter made was a disciplinary matter – not one of faith and morals.

Secondly – I never said that ANYBODY was a perfect Christian. There you go again making false claims. You really need to study the faith of the Fathers - and the Scriptures - before you go on making such ludicrous claims about things you obviously do not understand.

I’ll leave that one alone.

What?? You have made false claim after false claim about the Church. Then, when I call on you to provide me with ONE example, you simply decline to answer??

This is precisely what I’m talking about with regards to your complete misconception about Scripture and Church teachings. That being said - I’ll as you again:
**Show me **one single doctrinal error that the Church ever declared - just ONE.

I’ve never advocated leaving the Church!!! What I advocate is Christian unity, love, and botherly fellowship with all Christians!!!

John – when you approve of the 500 years of constant splintering of the Body of Christ** –**** you advocate leaving the Church. You can try to rationalize that away all day long but you’ll still be wrong in the end. You speak of the “unity” of the Body out of one side of your mouth, then you support those who have splintered the Body as being right as well. **

There is only ONE fullness of truth – not 30,000, John.

 

[elvisman]

The Body is made up of people that confess that Jesus is the Christ, just as Peter did, then they are baptized into the Body and the they receive the Holy Spirit, or some receive the Holy Spirit and are then baptized. It’s the Holy Spirit that teaches us about Christ, and we as Christians can fellowship and share what the Spirit of Truth teaches! 1 John 2:25 says: “I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”

WRONG. It is the Church that teaches us about Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15). WHY can’t you see that 30,000 or so versions of cannot be possible. The Holy Spirit does NOT teach thousands of differing versions of the truth. Jesus is truth itself (John 14:6) – and there is only ONE truth.

Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? Mark 8:18-----

You’re dodging the question again, John. Answer the question:
Remember – even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Are THEY part of the Church - they Body of Christ?

 

[John1]

You’re dodging the question again, John. Answer the question:
Remember – even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Are THEY part of the Church - they Body of Christ?

James 2:19 states: You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Obiviously the demons have not confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, so obviously they are not part of the Church. They don’t have faith in Jesus. It’s clear that our Protestant brothers of today do have faith in Christ. The Reformers never stopped having faith in Christ from what I have read in the history books. It’s apparent that you have your own faith, which does not include all the parts of the Body, which makes it apparent that you really don’t have faith in all Catholic teachings and that you definitely don’t believe that the Holy Spirit brings unity to all Christians. The Catholic Church has been, and is being splintered from inside because there are so many , just like yourself, that cannot and will not accept Vatican II and the Church’s teaching accordingly. I question some of the Church’s teaching, but you deny the teachings. There is a vast difference! The more we correspond, the more I understand that you are either very confused, or a devisive person, or a wolf in sheep’s clothing! Whichever it is, and I truly hope it’s not that you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I will continue to pray for you. Remeber the Holy Spirit works to bring unity to all the members of the Body, and if you continually resist that unity, then you may be endanger of losing everything! Please consider your choices, and make the right decision. I’m not saying that anyone should leave the Catholic Church. I believe that the Catholic Church is a Christian Church, or I wouldn’t have become a member! I believe that there is ONE church, established by Christ, filled with the faithful believers in Jesus, and unified through the Holy Spirit.

 

[elvisman]

James 2:19 states: You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Obiviously the demons have not confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, so obviously they are not part of the Church. They don’t have faith in Jesus. It’s clear that our Protestant brothers of today do have faith in Christ. The Reformers never stopped having faith in Christ from what I have read in the history books. It’s apparent that you have your own faith, which does not include all the parts of the Body, which makes it apparent that you really don’t have faith in all Catholic teachings and that you definitely don’t believe that the Holy Spirit brings unity to all Christians.

There you go again, John. Tou CLAIM to be a Catholic, yet you speak like a true Calvinist because you deny Free will.

The Holy Spirit brings unity to those who remain faithful to the truth. The Holy Spirit does not coerce anybody to remain faithful. You can turn and walk away from the fullness of truth with is PRECISELY what the “Reformers” did.
Apparently - you have as well.

Why do you think there are tens of thousands of “denominations” - all with differeing “truths”. James made the statement above for the same reason I made it to you - because believing is not enough.

The Catholic Church has been, and is being splintered from inside because there are so many , just like yourself, that cannot and will not accept Vatican II and the Curch’s teaching accordingly. I question some of the Church’s teaching, but you deny the teachings. There is a vast difference! The more we correspond, the more I understand that you are either very confused, or a devisive person, or a wolf in sheep’s clothing! Whichever it is, and I truly hope it’s not that you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I will continue to pray for you. Remeber the Holy Spirit works to bring unity to all the members of the Body, and if you continually resist that unity, then you may be endanger of losing everything! Please consider your choices, aqnd make the riight decision. I’m not saying that anyone should leave the Catholic Church. I believe that the Catholic Church is a Christian Church. I believe that there is ONE church, established by Christ, filled with the believers in Jesus, and unified through the Holy Spirit.

Tell me one Catholic Church that I have denied. I challenge you to back up that statement with some evidence this time instead of dancing around the issues like you have been.**

You make the ludicrous statement that the Catholic Church is A Christian Church. It is the ONE and ONLY Church of Christ. There IS no other.

Finally - I am anything but divisive because I pray for the unity of the Church every day. I pray that Protestants come home to the fullness of the truth that is the Catholic Church (Eph.1:22-23). And I pray that dissident pseudo-Catholics like yourself turn away from personal spritual pride and accept the truths of Christ’s only Church.

 

[John1]

There you go again, John. Tou CLAIM to be a Catholic, yet you speak like a true Calvinist because you deny Free will.

I AM a true Christian Catholic!!! I do believe in the free will that God gave each of us, I am not a Calvinist. I do believe that our Calvinist brethren are Christian, at least the ones who confess that Jesus is the Christ, the only Son of God.

The Holy Spirit brings unity to those who remain faithful to the truth. The Holy Spirit does not coerce anybody to remain faithful. You can turn and walk away from the fullness of truth with is PRECISELY what the “Reformers” did.
Apparently - you have as well.

No, apparently you don’t bother to read the history of Christianity or about the Reformation and people involved. My knowledge of the events that led up to the Reformation are admittedly limited, but you seem to know nothing about it at all and you just keep spewing the same vehement rhetoric.

Why do you think there are tens of thousands of “denominations” - all with differeing “truths”. James made the statement above for the same reason I made it to you - because believing is not enough.

Tell me one Catholic Church that I have denied. I challenge you to back up that statement with some evidence this time instead of* dancing* around the issues like you have been.

I don’t think I ever said that you denied a “Catholic Church”. I’ve already given ample evidence of some of the teachings that you have plainly denied. It’s been plain for quite awhile that you are the one tap dancing, not I.

You make the ludicrous statement that the Catholic Church is A Christian Church. It is the ONE and ONLY Church of Christ. There IS no other.

ARE YOU saying that it is LUDICROUS to believe that the Catholic Church is a Christian Church!!!

**Finally - I am anything **but divisive because I pray for the unity of the Church every day. I pray that Protestants come home to the fullness of the truth that is the Catholic Church (Eph.1:22-23). And I pray that dissident pseudo-Catholics like yourself turn away from personal spritual pride and accept the truths of Christ’s only Church.

Praying for unity is a good start! Next, you need to make sure that you actions agree wth your prayers. Vain condescension, arrogance, and slanderous allegations are in no way the Christian formula for loving brotherly fellowship!

 

[elvisman]

I AM a true Christian Catholic!!! I do believe in the free will that God gave each of us, I am not a Calvinist. I do believe that our Calvinist brethren are Christian, at least the ones who confess that Jesus is the Christ, the only Son of God.

**I would agree with you. Calvinists ARE Christians – and you are numbered among them if you truly believe that the Holy Spirit coerces and forces us instead of leaving it up to us to cooperate with God’s grace.
**
Your signature line alone is evidence that faith is not enough.

No, apparently you don’t bother to read the history of Christianity or about the Reformation and people involved. My knowledge of the events that led up to the Reformation are admittedly limited, but you seem to know nothing about it at all and you just keep spewing the same vehement rhetoric.

Name ONE thing I’ve said about the Reformation that is inaccurate.
Again – you’re full of attacks – but no substance or evidence.

I don’t think I ever said that you denied a “Catholic Church”. I’ve already given ample evidence of some of the teachings that you have plainly denied. It’s been plain for quite awhile that you are the one tap dancing, not I.

Then, I’ll re-word the question: Tell me one teaching of the Catholic Church that I have denied – just ONE.

Praying for unity is a good start! Next, you need to make sure that you actions agree wth your prayers. Vain condescension, arrogance, and slanderous allegations are in no way the Christian formula for loving brotherly fellowship!

Then you really need to stop misrepresenting the Catholic Church, friend.
The Church that you convey to others does not exist, nor do its teachings. You spread a message of moral relativism instead of the truth that the Church represents.

You have perverted the truths of the Catholic Church, all the while calling yourself a Catholic. Paul spoke well of you and others like you who misrepresent the truth when he wrote:
1 Gal. 1:6-10
**I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. **
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
**As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! **
Am I now currying favor with human beings or God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.

The bottom line, friend, is that you are trying to please everybody with your false Gospel message instead of pleasing God.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Our Lord constituted Peter as head of his Church and bestowed on him certain prerogatives that were not granted to the other apostles. Peter is the rock of the Church on whom it will be built. This is what Jesus intended to tell Peter Cepha] when he changed his name from Simon after this apostle alone infallibly pronounced that Jesus was the Son of the living God. Our heavenly Father personally granted this revelation only to Peter to signify his appointment as the Vicar of Christ on earth. Peter was not impeccable, so on the occasions he did fall our Lord called him by his original name. But in the capacity of chief shepherd and in the official exercise of his divine office, he is addressed as Peter, the foundation on which the Church shall be built (cf. Mt 16: 16-19; Jn 21:15-17). Thus it had to be Peter who was the first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended on them at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and soon after it was this apostle who was the first to preach repentance and baptism in the name of our Lord (Acts 2:38). Peter was the one among all the apostles who had the prerogative of initiating the selection of a successor to Judas (Acts 1:15), and it was he who declared the first anathema, on this occasion against Ananias and Sapphira, which was ratified by God (Acts 5:3). Finally, Peter exercised his prerogative of binding and loosing when he passed judgment on Simon’s pursuit of gaining authority through the laying on of hands (Acts 8: 20-23).

**Primacy, yes; autocracy or democracy, no! **

In ecumenical or general councils the bishops (successors to the apostles) gather from all over the world under the leadership and guidance of the pope (successor to the apostle Peter) to exercise the teaching authority of the Church in matters of faith and morals. Nothing is finally decided unless the supreme pontiff approves, whether he is physically presiding over a council or not. It has been that way since apostolic time. There is nothing despotic about this arrangement, for the pope has been commissioned by Christ to serve as his vicar on earth.

It is no coincidence that the Scriptures only record the personal conversations between Jesus and Peter at crucial moments. This says a lot for Peter and our Lord’s intentions for him.

“I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”
Luke 22, 32

"This is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter."
Tertullian, Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]

"If any bishop loses judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew…let us honour the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to (Pope) Julius, Bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces."
Council of Sardica, Canon 3 [A.D. 342]

PAX :heaven:

I don’t read any universal jurisdiction in the First Council of Nicea nor do I remember reading that it waited on Rome’s OK before making any decisions.

 

[John1]

The bottom line, friend, is that you are trying to please everybody with your false Gospel message instead of pleasing God.

Hi Elvisman,

No matter how many times you twist my words or make false accusations against me, that doesn’t change Christ’s message of brotherly love, and that my friend is the message that I promote and believe. In John 13:34 Jesus say the following “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." It saddens me deeply to know that you think it’s a false Gospel. Titus 3:10 says the following “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.” I wish you all the best in your journey to the Truth and I will pray that the Holy Spirit guides you in all righteousness. May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you, goodbye.

 

[elvisman]

Hi Elvisman,

No matter how many times you twist my words or make false accusations against me, that doesn’t change Christ’s message of brotherly love, and that my friend is the message that I promote and believe. In John 13:34 Jesus say the following “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." It saddens me deeply to know that you think it’s a false Gospel. Titus 3:10 says the following “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.” I wish you all the best in your journey to the Truth and I will pray that the Holy Spirit guides you in all righteousness. May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you, goodbye.

That’s too easy, John.

I have addressed everything you have claimed with straight answers. Why can’t you extend the same courtesey to me?
I have asked you repeatedly to answer my question regarding your false charges:
"Tell me one teaching of the Catholic Church that I have denied or rejected – just ONE."

Charity isn’t just being nice - it’s being honest. It’s being forthcoming - which you have not been. 2 Thess. 2:15 tells us to admonish our brothers when they are wrong - which is what I have done with you. Lies and misunderstandings about the Church cannot be allowed to be perpetuated.

You have repeatedly misrepresented the Church on this thread and others and I am holding you accountable.

 

[rainman10]

The bottom line, friend, is that you are trying to please everybody with your false Gospel message instead of pleasing God.

Hi Elvisman,

No matter how many times you twist my words or make false accusations against me, that doesn’t change Christ’s message of brotherly love, and that my friend is the message that I promote and believe. In John 13:34 Jesus say the following “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." It saddens me deeply to know that you think it’s a false Gospel. Titus 3:10 says the following “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.” I wish you all the best in your journey to the Truth and I will pray that the Holy Spirit guides you in all righteousness. May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you, goodbye.

John1, the Bible also states the following:

1Cor 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

Eph 4 13-14 13
until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, 6 to the extent of the full stature of Christ,14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.

Phil 1:27 Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear news of you, that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the gospel,

John 10:16 I have other sheep 7 that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

These all refer to unity in belief, one church, one flock, one shepherd. I see nothing in the Bible about multiple beliefs, churches, denominations, etc., it is all about unity in ONE belief and only ONE. I don’t understand why you ignore these verses. Yes we must love one another but the fact that we do not agree with protestants does not mean we do not love them, nor does it mean we are criticizing them. It starts with love and it is admirable that you are promoting love for your fellow man, but there is much more to it than that. That love should start with a love for God and ALL that He teaches us and following EVERYTHING that He teaches us, not just picking and choosing what YOU want to believe. That is what the protestants are doing. I agree with Elvisman, you are preaching a different truth and all he is trying to do is to make you realize what you are doing. Elvisman is very straightforward in his responses, but he tells it like it is, and maybe you don’t like hearing that.

 

[John1]

These all refer to unity in belief, one church, one flock, one shepherd. I see nothing in the Bible about multiple beliefs, churches, denominations, etc., it is all about unity in ONE belief and only ONE. I don’t understand why you ignore these verses. Yes we must love one another but the fact that we do not agree with protestants does not mean we do not love them, nor does it mean we are criticizing them. It starts with love and it is admirable that you are promoting love for your fellow man, but there is much more to it than that. That love should start with a love for God and ALL that He teaches us and following EVERYTHING that He teaches us, not just picking and choosing what YOU want to believe. That is what the protestants are doing. I agree with Elvisman, you are preaching a different truth and all he is trying to do is to make you realize what you are doing. Elvisman is very straightforward in his responses, but he tells it like it is, and maybe you don’t like hearing that.

Hi Rainman,

I appreciate what you’re saying, but I don’t know if you’ve read the entire thread. The Catholic Church believes that the Holy Spirit is present in some of the Ecclesial communities of our separated brether. My stance is simply this, since the Catholic Church recognizes the presence of the Holy Spirit in those communities, and since the Catholic Church recognizes that they are our brethren, then we are under Christ command to love one another. I’m not talking about “loving our fellow man”, I’m talking about loving the fellowship of brothers (and sisters) in Christ. The Holy Spirit is what is working to bring all believers into unity. The Bible makes it clear that if you don’ t love your brethren, then God is not in you. 1 John 4:19-21 puts it like this:

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

You see, I’m not going against the teachings of the Catholic Church or the Bible. The Catholic Church believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and as you can see by just this one verse I quoted above, you can see that I do support Church teachings. If you read about the Church’s desire for Christian Unity according to Vatican II, especially the decree of “UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO”.

Elvisman is not “straight forward” in his responses. He plays the game of twisting others words, and supposedly addressing something that was never said or implied in the first place. All Christians desire to be brought into the fullness of the Truth of Christ, to know Christ more fully, including our separated brethren. Personally I don’t know of anyone who is the perfect image of Christ, including myself for sure! I do know what the Bible and the Catholic Church teaches about the Christian character, and how we are supposed to behave toward our Christian brothers and sisters. I know that it is through the fruit of the Spirit that we Glorify God! May the peace of God be with you!

 

[elvisman]

Hi Rainman,

I appreciate what you’re saying, but I don’t know if you’ve read the entire thread. The Catholic Church believes that the Holy Spirit is present in some of the Ecclesial communities of our separated brether. My stance is simply this, since the Catholic Church recognizes the presence of the Holy Spirit in those communities, and since the Catholic Church recognizes that they are our brethren, then we are under Christ command to love one another. I’m not talking about “loving our fellow man”, I’m talking about loving the fellowship of brothers (and sisters) in Christ. The Holy Spirit is what is working to bring all believers into unity. The Bible makes it clear that if you don’ t love your brethren, then God is not in you. 1 John 4:19-21 puts it like this:

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

You see, I’m not going against the teachings of the Catholic Church or the Bible. The Catholic Church believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and as you can see by just this one verse I quoted above, you can see that I do support Church teachings. If you read about the Church’s desire for Christian Unity according to Vatican II, especially the decree of “UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO”.

Elvisman is not “straight forward” in his responses. He plays the game of twisting others words, and supposedly addressing something that was never said or implied in the first place. All Christians desire to be brought into the fullness of the Truth of Christ, to know Christ more fully, including our separated brethren. Personally I don’t know of anyone who is the perfect image of Christ, including myself for sure! I do know what the Bible and the Catholic Church teaches about the Christian character, and how we are supposed to behave toward our Christian brothers and sisters. I know that it is through the fruit of the Spirit that we Glorify God! May the peace of God be with you!

Wrong**, John – on several counts.**

---

First of all – I have not twisted anybody’s words. I have confronted you and am holding you accountable based on your own words and positions. It is you who have taken the Scriptures out of context and have therefore perverted the word of God. Peter warns of this very thing in 2 Pet. 3:16:
“In them (Paul’s letters) there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

---

Secondly, our separated - yes separated brethren are in that state of their own accord. We are to lovingly pray for their conversion to the fullness of truth that is found ONLY in the Catholic Church (Eph. 1:22-23). Yes, we are to seek unity in that respect – but not in the unity you are propagating. The unity that you pursue is one that accepts the heretical viewpoints of many denominations for the sake of some sort of feel-good “Kumbaya” utopia. That is NOT what Jesus prayed for in John 17 on the night before he died. **

---

**You accuse anybody that doesn’t share this false message of hope with you of “not being loving”, which is complete nonsense. We are to share the FULLNESS of truth with our self-divorced brothers and sisters in so that they, too may share in the hope of salvation. **

---

Finally – I leave you with this:
**Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding **(Prov. 3:5).

 

[beth40n2]

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

I think there is about 38,000 denominations now! It is done every day!

 

[Good_Fella]

I don’t read any universal jurisdiction in the First Council of Nicea nor do I remember reading that it waited on Rome’s OK before making any decisions.

That’s because you fail to understand the true meaning of Canon 6. It does not deny the universal primacy and jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome, but rather upholds the temporal jurisdictional authority of the Bishop of Alexandria over the churches in the neighbouring provinces. A modernist revisionist reading of the text distorts the historical facts and overlooks the historical backround. A more precise interpretation of the Greek text shows that the Catholic Church as a whole understood the Bishop of Rome to hold universal primacy and jurisdiction. And it indicates that the Council never denied this prerogative of his, but acknowledged it. I have already quoted Canon 3 of the Council of Sardica [342] above in my last reply to you.

“epiide kai to en te Rome episkopo touto sunethes estin”

When Bishop St. Athanasius was asked by Bishop Melitius of Lycopoli and his Arian cohorts what warranted his claim to authority over the bishops of the neighbouring churches and to depose them, he cited Canon 6. The Council decreed that the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria must be respected and upheld because it had always been a long-standing tradition since apostolic time and his authority was sanctioned by the Bishop of Rome - as should be customary - who acknowledged the integrity of this divine office. Canaon 6 could not possibly concede an authority to the Bishop of Rome on equal footing with that of the Bishop of Alexandria. The latter appealed to the former for help when he was deposed by the Arian bishops.

Pope Julius l wrote an epistle addressed to the Arian exponents at the imperial court in Constantinople in which he contested their deposition of the Bishop of Alexandria.

“It behoved you to write to us [Holy See in Rome] that thus what is just might be decreed for all. For they who suffered were bishops, and the churches that suffered no common ones, over which the Apostles ruled in person. And why were we not wriiten to concerning the Church, especially Alexandria? Or are they [the Arians] ignorant that this has been the custom first to write to us, and thus what is just be decreed from this place [Holy See in Rome]? If, therefore, any such suspicion fell on the bishop there [Alexandria], it was befitting to write to this Church [Rome].”
*{Julius, e,p. n, 6:21} *

In any event, the spread of Arianism is the primary reason why the Council of Nicea was convoked. But the issues that had resurfaced at this time had already been resolved by previous popes. In the 3rd century, for instance, Patriarch Dionysius of Antioch wrote a letter to Pope Dionysius to inform him of the appearance of Sabellianism (later Arianism) in his patriarchate. The pope wrote a letter to all the bishops there to warn them about the errors of this mainly Trinitarian heresy. In his letter he condemned these errors and designated the term homoousios ( of the same substance) which was adopted by the Council of Nicea. On this question concerning the Incarnation, the council ratified a proclamation made by a previous pope about sixty years earlier. We find the same thing happening in the Book of Acts: 10: 33-35; 15: 33-35. There has always been a division of certain beliefs in the Catholic Church before a doctrine has been defined as dogma, but the Bride of Christ, one universal institution founded on the Apostles with Peter acting as head, has managed to overcome the gates of hell.
PAX

 

[Nicea325]

Hi Rainman,

I appreciate what you’re saying, but I don’t know if you’ve read the entire thread. The Catholic Church believes that the Holy Spirit is present in some of the Ecclesial communities of our separated brether. My stance is simply this, since the Catholic Church recognizes the presence of the Holy Spirit in those communities, and since the Catholic Church recognizes that they are our brethren, then we are under Christ command to love one another. I’m not talking about “loving our fellow man”, I’m talking about loving the fellowship of brothers (and sisters) in Christ. The Holy Spirit is what is working to bring all believers into unity. The Bible makes it clear that if you don’ t love your brethren, then God is not in you. 1 John 4:19-21 puts it like this:

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

You see, I’m not going against the teachings of the Catholic Church or the Bible. The Catholic Church believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and as you can see by just this one verse I quoted above, you can see that I do support Church teachings. If you read about the Church’s desire for Christian Unity according to Vatican II, especially the decree of “UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO”.

Elvisman is not “straight forward” in his responses. He plays the game of twisting others words, and supposedly addressing something that was never said or implied in the first place. All Christians desire to be brought into the fullness of the Truth of Christ, to know Christ more fully, including our separated brethren. Personally I don’t know of anyone who is the perfect image of Christ, including myself for sure! I do know what the Bible and the Catholic Church teaches about the Christian character, and how we are supposed to behave toward our Christian brothers and sisters. I know that it is through the fruit of the Spirit that we Glorify God! May the peace of God be with you!

John1:

I am sorry,but elvisman has not once twisted your words. I think you simply do not like hearing the facts of what the church truly teaches. Isn’t it amazing how people always seem to get offended by the Truth? Strangely Jesus had the same problem. Finally,God’s Church is not about feelings and emotions,but the TRUTH,plain and simple.

 

[Good_Fella]

That’s because you fail to understand the true meaning of Canon 6. It does not deny the universal primacy and jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome, but rather upholds the temporal jurisdictional authority of the Bishop of Alexandria over the churches in the neighbouring provinces. A modernist revisionist reading of the text distorts the historical facts and overlooks the historical backround. A more precise interpretation of the Greek text shows that the Catholic Church as a whole understood the Bishop of Rome to hold universal primacy and jurisdiction. And it indicates that the Council never denied this prerogative of his, but acknowledged it. I have already quoted Canon 3 of the Council of Sardica [342] above in my last reply to you.

“epiide kai to en te Rome episkopo touto sunethes estin”

When Bishop St. Athanasius was asked by Bishop Melitius of Lycopoli and his Arian cohorts what warranted his claim to authority over the bishops of the neighbouring churches and to depose them, he cited Canon 6. The Council decreed that the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria must be respected and upheld because it had always been a long-standing tradition since apostolic time and his authority was sanctioned by the Bishop of Rome - as should be customary - who acknowledged the integrity of this divine office. Canaon 6 could not possibly concede an authority to the Bishop of Rome on equal footing with that of the Bishop of Alexandria. The latter appealed to the former for help when he was deposed by the Arian bishops.

Pope Julius l wrote an epistle addressed to the Arian exponents at the imperial court in Constantinople in which he contested their deposition of the Bishop of Alexandria.

“It behoved you to write to us [Holy See in Rome] that thus what is just might be decreed for all. For they who suffered were bishops, and the churches that suffered no common ones, over which the Apostles ruled in person. And why were we not wriiten to concerning the Church, especially Alexandria? Or are they [the Arians] ignorant that this has been the custom first to write to us, and thus what is just be decreed from this place [Holy See in Rome]? If, therefore, any such suspicion fell on the bishop there [Alexandria], it was befitting to write to this Church [Rome].”
*{Julius, e,p. n, 6:21} *

In any event, the spread of Arianism is the primary reason why the Council of Nicea was convoked. But the issues that had resurfaced at this time had already been resolved by previous popes. In the 3rd century, for instance, Patriarch Dionysius of Antioch wrote a letter to Pope Dionysius to inform him of the appearance of Sabellianism (later Arianism) in his patriarchate. The pope wrote a letter to all the bishops there to warn them about the errors of this mainly Trinitarian heresy. In his letter he condemned these errors and designated the term homoousios ( of the same substance) which was adopted by the Council of Nicea. On this question concerning the Incarnation, the council ratified a proclamation made by a previous pope about sixty years earlier. We find the same thing happening in the Book of Acts: 10: 33-35; 15: 33-35. There has always been a division of certain beliefs in the Catholic Church before a doctrine has been defined as dogma, but the Bride of Christ, one universal institution founded on the Apostles with Peter acting as head, has managed to overcome the gates of hell.
PAX

Correction:

“Now, therefore, we are all here in the presence of God to listen to all that you have been commanded by the Lord.” Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, “In truth, I see that God shows no pariality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.”
Acts 10, 33-35 [cf. 15: 7-22]

 

[Jehoshua]

I think the question really boils down to one thing.

There is one God
There is one Lord
There is one Christ

Therefore there should be ONE truth. How could this one God say to one group that the eucharist is symbolic and to another that its indeed the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ made manifest under the accidents of bread and wine. The same idea goes for other doctrines.

There is ONE God, he gave one truth, there cannot be one invisible church as the protestants say, because if that is so than God himself is a deciever because there can be only ONE truth not many wildly contrasting and indeed OPPOSING truths. Therefore logic alone mandates that amongst all the christian groups there can be only ONE church with the fullness of the truth and one cannot found the “true church” because the ONE truth is immutable and already resides elsewhere, in the ONE Church.

This church is the Catholic Church. Not a manmade phenomenon dreamed up by a mere MAN named Martin Luther, or Calvin or any of the other founders of protestant sects in the present day. A simple knowledge of history confirms this. As Cardinal Newman an anglican (protestant) convert said.

“To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”

 

[Good_Fella]

However, this would be like me saying “The reason Catholics have Papal infallibility is to impose their beliefs on the entire church.” Wouldn’t by that, would you?

For about 1100 years there was only One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. There was no such thing as countless Christian denominations existing under one umbrella in a disunity of faith and morals, but there were a number of heretical sects that had sprung up from time to time - even in apostolic time. John had to contend with the Docetists who denied that the Eucharist was actually the flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The sixth chapter of his gospel is an affirmation of the traditional orthodox belief of the Church at the time. The Docetists also rejected the orthodox belief in the Person of the divine Word having taken on our flesh and blood and actually becoming as physically human as we are. Thus we read in the Gospel: *“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us.” * John wrote his gospel partly to reinforce the Christian faith and clear up the confusion that was spreading like wildfire in the Hellenistic world. Hence, the traditions of the Catholic Church - including papal infallibility - had existed long before the 16th century Protestant Reformation. It is the Catholic Church that has always been the “entire” church, and Catholic belief in papal infallibility, as well as the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist by transubstantiation, are not beliefs we have imposed upon ourselves. They originate from the Holy Spirit as divinely revealed truths. Protestants, not unlike the Docetists of the 1st century, are Christians by virtue of their valid baptism, but they are separated from the Body of Christ, that is the Church founded on Peter and the Apostles.

Church is not invisible. Christ said “Where ever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them”

By virtue of whoever in a state of invincible ignorance has been validly baptized according to the formula prescribed in Scripture notwithstanding his separation from the Church.

… Where do you get that from Ephesians 4:5? As far as believing: Romans 10:9-10 and John 3:16 make it clear what is necessary.

• Luke 10, 16*

There are many Christians, including baptized Catholics, who refuse to listen to the teaching authority of the Church in matters of morals (i.e., homosexuality and abortion), but they profess their belief in the Person of Jesus Christ and accept him as their Lord and Saviour. True faith amounts to much more than an intellectual acknowledgement and assent. Jesus said that not everyone who says to him, “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt 7:21).

… Guess what, your idea of the “Church” being one institution, is not there either.

“Since we have heard that some of our number who went out without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Acts 15, 24-25

James is mindful of the words of our Lord that there should be only one flock and one shepherd (Jn 10:16). Those Christians who create dissensions and problems by teaching what contravenes what has been proposed by the episcopate of the Church founded on Peter and the Apostles without any divine mandate have separated themselves from the one visible universal Church. Those members who took it upon themselves to propound doctrines with absolutely no divine authority certainly did not represent another religious institution established by our Lord. Paul himself warns us to avoid those private individuals who create dissension and disrupt the unity of the one true Catholic and Apostolic faith (Rom 16:17).

I find it interesting that you must immediately go to tradition as a justification for your position. While tradition is beneficial, it is secondary to scripture in the Anglican view of things. Therefore, you will find your own line of reasoning more convincing then I would. We think differently.

Luke appealed to both sacred and oral tradition as the basis of his gospel (Lk 1:1-4) which was written about thirty years after the Church was born on the day of Pentecost. Likewise, so did John when he had to contend with the heretical Docetists who rejected many of the traditional beliefs of the one universal Church. Scripture comes from Tradition and so must be interpreted in light of it by the proper teaching authority of the Church.

Therefore, brothers,* stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught***, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours."
2 Thessalonians 2:15

The Thessalonians were warned to guard themselves against the Ebionites ( a Jewish Christian sect: more members who had gone out without any mandate from the apostles, my emphasis) who rejected Paul’s teachings and propounded doctrines of their own which were a fusion of the traditional teachings of the Church and orthodox Judaism. Obviously Paul held a higher regard for tradition than you do, and he certainly regarded Sacred Tradition as belonging to the deposit of faith together with Sacred Scripture.

PAX :heaven:

 

[JohnnyReb]

For about 1100 years there was only One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. There was no such thing as countless Christian denominations existing under one umbrella in a disunity of faith and morals,

Hi Good Fella. Glad you took the time to respond. You will get no debate from me about there being one church for about 1100 years. I know that. I am familar with church history. I wish Christianity wasn’t divided to the extent it is. I share alot of sympathy for the Catholic position. An awful legacy of the Protestant Reformation is that now churches will schism from each other over the color of the carpet in the sanctuary. Really. Its pathetic.

As for disunity in faith in morals, all Christians are united in the Gospel and united in Christ. Let’s take the Nicene Creed. Catholics and Protestants agree on every point, except that I have highlighted in bold, hence this discussion.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Even your church teaches that Protestant Church have a valid Baptism, and a valid marriage sacrament because these sacraments are not contingent on having a valid priesthood.

but there were a number of heretical sects that had sprung up from time to time - even in apostolic time. John had to contend with the Docetists who denied that the Eucharist was actually the flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So you’re comparing Protestants to Docetists now? Not all Protestants reject that the Eucharist is really the blood and body of our Lord. I don’t. Oh, and none of them reject the idea of the incarnation either. The underlined part of the creed would be rejected by Docetists but accepted by Protestant Christians. In the second part above, I see alot of the claims of the RCC given spelled out. Big deal. Protestants and Orthodox reject your claims of Papal authority and jurisdiction, and would not accept transubstantiation language either. Transubstantiation was not declared dogma until the 12th century.

Heretics deny the soverreign Lord. That is NOT what Protestants do:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Sounds like Docetists, yes, Protestants, no, Catholics, no.

• Luke 10, 16*

There are many Christians, including baptized Catholics, who refuse to listen to the teaching authority of the Church in matters of morals (i.e., homosexuality and abortion), but they profess their belief in the Person of Jesus Christ and accept him as their Lord and Saviour. True faith amounts to much more than an intellectual acknowledgement and assent. Jesus said that not everyone who says to him, “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt 7:21).

As a Christian, I listen to the authority of scripture, tradition and reason from the Church in these matters. Christians what accept homosexuality and abortion do the same. Its sad. We’re not entirely in disagreement here. Faith is not just mere mental acceptence of intellectual truths. That is not what Protestants teach. Real faith is a living an active faith.