Can anyone start a church, and call it the church founded by Jesus Christ?

[JohnnyReb]

Individual bishops or priests, such as Sabellius, Paul of Samosata, Nestorius of Constantinople, Arius, Melitus of Lycopoli, or Martin Luther, are fallible and can err to the extent of preaching heresy.These men do not speak for the Church and so are themselves accountable for their misdeeds

What gives you proof that any of these men were wrong, beyond the fact that they disagree with a teaching of your ecclesiastical community? Its circular reasoning.

We can’t be wrong because Christ promised us the church would never fall into error. Where do you get that from?
The Bible and Tradition, see Matthew 16:18ff…
How do you know you are right about your understanding?
Because we are the church and cannot err…

The ecumenical councils (the Pope in union with the college of bishops) that condemned their teachings and reaffirmed the traditional apostolic faith exercised an authortity warranted and protected by the Holy Spirit. We have our Lord’s word that* the gates of hell shall not prevail*

How do you know the Catholic church is without blemish? If it even has one, it is disqualified as the body of Christ by your own reasoning. I would not agree. The Catholic church is part of the body of Christ despite (what I believe to be) its errors.

"Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are 'in’ the Church…those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 26:2

The infallibilty of the Church, and her supernatural safeguard, were prophesied by Isaiah and reaffirmed by the apostle Paul.

All your sons shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children. In justice shall you be established, far from the fear of oppression, where destruction cannot come near you. …

But these heretics have been proven false by the Pope in union with the college of bishops in defense of the orthodox faith.

Again, this is interpreted through Catholic glasses. We are taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit, who will never speak in contradiction to his word. The attacks on such traditions may come from discerning individuals who by means of the Holy Spirit, see those traditions as contradicting what has come before, and therefore false. The Church is a servant to the Word of God, after all. The Catechism of the Catholic church tells us so.

Committed by those private individual clerics and theologians who obviously have no divine mandate to preach what contradicts the deposit of faith safeguarded by the Magisterium through the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:27-28; 1 Cor 2:13).

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

First of all, does the church still require that we obstain from meat sacrificed to idols? Paul later on gave a list of more indepth rules that gave guidelines for eating the meats, overriding what was given by this counsel. In other words, these words were not permanently binding.

All Christians have a mandate to preach the Gospel, to be prepared in season and out of season to share the good news.

A Protestant minister or Anglican bishop cannot trace his office directly back to the Apostles. The consecration or ordination is valid only if a Catholic bishop imposes his hands, for a Catholic bishop can trace his office directly back to the Apostles.

I don’t fault you for accepting Catholic teaching in regards to that…

[F

ONT=“Book Antiqua”]The sacred Tradition of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucaharist by transubstantiation is infallible, and so John 6 is infallible. Sacred Scripture is infallible because it is inspired by the same Spirit who has guided the Church in her traditions.

Oh I agree that the scriptures are only infallible because they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. I think the RCC goes further and states that they are infallible because they are given to us by the Catholic Church who cannot err. That’s where we disagree. If I agreed with you, I would go to reconcilation when next available and be at the next Mass.

Looks like the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Church, although Protestants believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit, or the Apostles are still alive somewhere; since Christ promised to be with his Church until the end of time ( Jn 16:12-13; Mt 28:20).

That’s a strawman.

I’m not sure if I will be back on here before Christmas, but I wil try. The Holidays are keeping me busy. Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[catholicboy123]

Catholics claim that jesus founded their church through Peter. Also I dont understand why everyone is saying “mormons are brainwashing” when the catholics baptize their babys and the babys know nothing about the religion and cant choose. In the LDS church they wait until 8 to see if they really believe in that church before being baptized.

 

[Cruxis117]

Catholics claim that jesus founded their church through Peter. Also I dont understand why everyone is saying “mormons are brainwashing” when the catholics baptize their babys and the babys know nothing about the religion and cant choose. In the LDS church they wait until 8 to see if they really believe in that church before being baptized.

Well, my good friend, the reason why the Catholic Church believes what you’ve said, is because of scripture. For example:
Matthew 16:14-18

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

In Greek, “Peter” means “rock”. And as for infant baptism, we believe in this because of these verses:

Luke 18:15-17
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

And the only way to enter the Kingdom of God is spoken of in John 3:5:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

This describes baptism, does it not? Are you one to believe in keeping the children away from Christ? I certainly hope not. Furthermore, in the LDS church, they believe that God the Father was once a mortal. Which is contrary to Scripture (which they believe to be true). Given this:

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

And:

Isaiah 43:10-12
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:** before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. **11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Those verses were from the King James Bible, which I know the LDS Church accepts. Therefore I believe that what the LDS Church teaches is contrary to Scripture, and that what they believe is false and contradictory to what they say, which is that they hold both the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be true, when the Bible is against what the LDS Church preaches. Before speaking of the Catholic Church, studying Scripture and Church history (the Councils, etc.) is a prerequisite.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Catholics claim that jesus founded their church through Peter. Also I dont understand why everyone is saying “mormons are brainwashing” when the catholics baptize their babys and the babys know nothing about the religion and cant choose. In the LDS church they wait until 8 to see if they really believe in that church before being baptized.

Please show me anywhere in the bible that you must accept or believe in Christ before you can be baptized.

Matthew

 

[catholicboy123]

Ok, first of all peter means small pebble. I know thats still a rock but he was also married and the priests today CANNOT be married. Second of all i never said you needed to believe in Jesus before being baptized i just said I would mutch rather know what religion im being brought into and know their background and all their beliefs before enetering into that church.

 

[catholicboy123]

Well, my good friend, the reason why the Catholic Church believes what you’ve said, is because of scripture. For example:
Matthew 16:14-18

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

In Greek, “Peter” means “rock”. And as for infant baptism, we believe in this because of these verses:

Luke 18:15-17
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

And the only way to enter the Kingdom of God is spoken of in John 3:5:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

This describes baptism, does it not? Are you one to believe in keeping the children away from Christ? I certainly hope not. Furthermore, in the LDS church, they believe that God the Father was once a mortal. Which is contrary to Scripture (which they believe to be true). Given this:

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

And:

Isaiah 43:10-12
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:** before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. **11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Those verses were from the King James Bible, which I know the LDS Church accepts. Therefore I believe that what the LDS Church teaches is contrary to Scripture, and that what they believe is false and contradictory to what they say, which is that they hold both the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be true, when the Bible is against what the LDS Church preaches. Before speaking of the Catholic Church, studying Scripture and Church history (the Councils, etc.) is a prerequisite.

When Jesus puts his hands on them doesnt mean he’s baptizing them. LDS christen their babies. Maybe he’s doing that ?

 

[Cruxis117]

Ok, first of all peter means small pebble. I know thats still a rock but he was also married and the priests today CANNOT be married. Second of all i never said you needed to believe in Jesus before being baptized i just said I would mutch rather know what religion im being brought into and know their background and all their beliefs before enetering into that church.

No, it does not mean “small pebble”. Because the greek used was known as Koine Greek. Peter means “rock”. Here is something to explain what I mean:

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

Secondly, the “priests being married” is only a discipline, not a doctrinal matter. Again, check out this link for more information about Catholic teaching:

catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp

The problem with your last statement, is that in your defense of baptism, you have not made any rebuttal to the scripture I provided, nor have you provided any scripture to refute what I have stated.

 

[catholicboy123]

Sorry i meant blessing not christening

 

[Cruxis117]

When Jesus puts his hands on them doesnt mean he’s baptizing them. LDS christen their babies. Maybe he’s doing that ?

You miss the point. It is not that Christ is baptizing the babies. It is that he wishes to have the children come to him. And that for them to come to the Kingdom of God, they must be baptized (as is stated in John 3:1-5). Jesus welcomes all, but baptism, as stated, is needed in order to enter the Kingdom.

 

[catholicboy123]

Luke 18:15-17
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

This DOES NOT say that Jesus baptized them. He just layed his hands upon him which is done in blessing by LDS.

 

[Nicea325]

Catholics claim that jesus founded their church through Peter. Also I dont understand why everyone is saying “mormons are brainwashing” when the catholics baptize their babys and the babys know nothing about the religion and cant choose. In the LDS church they wait until 8 to see if they really believe in that church before being baptized.

No,Catholics and the Catholic Church teach that Jesus founded His Church and gave Peter the care of His Flock.

 

[Cruxis117]

Luke 18:15-17
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

This DOES NOT say that Jesus baptized them. He just layed his hands upon him which is done in blessing by LDS.

Again, you are missing the point and making a rather poor straw man argument against me. What I am expressing to you, is that we are to not keep the children away from Christ. And as shown multiple times before, in John 3:1-5, Nicodemus asks Christ what must be done to receive eternal life and enter the Kingdom of God. And Christ speaks of being born again in water and in the Spirit is the only way to enter the Kingdom. And we are told that the children are to enter the kingdom of God. I have not spoken of Christ baptizing or blessing or christening the children, but I have referred to what he has said in the Gospels.

 

[Nicea325]

Ok, first of all peter means small pebble. I know thats still a rock but he was also married and the priests today CANNOT be married. Second of all i never said you needed to believe in Jesus before being baptized i just said I would mutch rather know what religion im being brought into and know their background and all their beliefs before enetering into that church.

Not true.Many Eastern Rite Catholic priests are married. Likewise,sometime Latin Rite priests are married due to the fact many were former Lutherans or Anglicans. In addition,read what Jesus says in Matt 19:11-12 and 1 Cor.7:7. It is a discipline,not a doctrine to remain celibate.

 

[catholicboy123]

I dont see why we are argueing because I think 8 years old is still a child.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by catholicboy123
Luke 18:15-17
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

This DOES NOT say that Jesus baptized them. He just layed his hands upon him which is done in blessing by LDS.

And also DOES NOT say He denied or would deny children being baptized.You miss the point.

 

[Nicea325]

I dont see why we are argueing because I think 8 years old is still a child.

Okay…and?

 

[Cruxis117]

I dont see why we are argueing because I think 8 years old is still a child.

Yes, but you are arguing against baptism against infants.

 

[truid]

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

Yes. Doesn’t mean it’s true. A perfect example of this would be the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by Joseph Smith Jr.

If you examine the history of their religion and the subsequent rewriting of their history (omitting the parts they don’t like) it would appear Joseph Smith (err I mean “God” wink wink) setup the perfect religious organization.

Of course, when you really dig into their history it becomes pretty apparent that it is nothing more than another man-made religion. Man trying to strive and pull themselves up by their boot straps (Joseph Smith’s words not mine) to reach heaven vs God coming down to Man and lifting us up because of His Divine Mercy and Grace.

 

[truid]

By what/who’s authority…? I have been asking that question forever. No one ever responds…For example, I know that I was not entrusted with the authority to teach and settle disputes when they arise. Jesus entrust just one church to do that via the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit.

So you don’t believe the Holy Spirit indwells the individual believer? One of the fruits of the spirit is patience, is it not? If the Holy Spirit dwells in us (we are His temples, are we not?) then shouldn’t one of the fruits of the spirit (which we should be bearing) be peace? James said that if any lack wisdom to ask of God, who gives liberally and upbraideth not. So, is it beyond the Father’s ability to grant that request to any Christian who asks for wisdom in settling a dispute and pray that peace between two parties be realized?

You ask, by what authority? How about by the authority of Jesus Christ and the promise He made to send us the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth?

 

[Good_Fella]

Sure it is. Here is what the Catechism says:

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

So far so good, right? It is not superior to the Word of God, but its servant.

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

However, the faithful must receive the Church’s teachings with docility. In other words, the Church is not accountable for their own teachings. Sure they are servants of the Word of God, but who interprets the Word of God, (Scripture and Tradition)? Of course the Catholic Magisterium. So they are servants to the Word of God, but as interpreted by them, because they cannot err. This makes the Magisterium the private entity.

A public entity. In an individual, private, theological capacity the Pope and bishops are fallible in their opinions (theologumen). The charism of infallibilty applies when the Pope speaks ex cathedra in the public and official office of chief shepherd. This charism may also come into effect when the Pope is united with all the world’s bishops under the auspices of the Universal Magisterium. In the Ordinary Magisterium an individual pope speaks in a non-infallible capacity even when referring to an infallible truth taught by the Church that has yet to be defined and declared as dogma.

You are certainly entitled to your subjective opinion regarding the reformers. Meanwhile, many in the early church taught Sola Fide:

1. Clement of Rome (c. 30–100): And we [Christians], too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–115): His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments [legal titles]; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified.

1. Polycarp (c. 69–155): I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ.

1. Justin Martyr (d. 165): No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer . . . are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account.

1. Didymus the Blind (c. 313-398): This does not mean that works can be put before faith, because a person is saved by grace, not by works but by faith.

1. Hilary of Poitiers (c 315-67): Wages cannot be considered as a gift, because they are due to work, but God has given free grace to all men by the justification of faith.

Like Paul, they mean works under the law - not in the system of grace. I’ll send you more explicit quotes later when I get home from work.

Well you kind of got me there I will admit, but my way out here is that I do not believe things because they are dogmas, but because they are taught by the Scriptures. The Trinity and the Nature of Christ are.

The scriptures are ambiguous. Hence the numerous heresies that have arisen by faulty interpretations that contradict Sacred Tradition and the orthodox teachings of the Church.

PAX :heaven: