Can ashes be scattered or separated

[mkamoski1]

All -

Please help.

This is a question about whether or not the remains after cremation (cremains) can be scattered and/or separated?

These threads suggest that the cremains MAY NOT BE scattered…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93720

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155083

…alternately, these articles suggest that the cremains MAY BE scattered…

catholicdiscussion.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/vatican-changes-rules-on-scattering-of-ashes/

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2008/01/vatican-changes-rules-on-scattering-of.html

…so what is the truth as of now?

At least one friend I know wants to take some cremains for a crucifix to keep on his/her neck and also perhaps keeps some on the mantle and also scatter some at sea and also bury some in his/her garden and also bury some next to the deceased’s mother. While, none of this would be done for pantheistic or other non-Catholic intentions; but, I still think the ashes need to stay together and be buried in 1 place (at home, in a cemetary, or other appropriate place) but need the Church documents to back up this position, etc.

(Please, I urgently need direct references to official Church teaching on this in order to help keep from having an issue in our family regarding this matter.)

Please advise.

Thank you.

Slave To The Virgin Mary, I am yours…

• Mark Kamoski

 

[Fergal]

In short the answer is no.

The Church has strong feelings about the fact that this body has been a temple of the Holy Spirit and requires a proper burial as a result.

 

[DJgang]

thanks to above poster.

I actually just learned this recently.

 

[mkamoski1]

…and if ashes cannot be scattered then how does that sync with the practice of relics, etc?

…perhaps because relics are expressly handled with deep veneration it makes it OK to move the remains around and keep them in a non-buried state?

(Just curious.)

 

[Corki]

All -

Please help.

This is a question about whether or not the remains after cremation (cremains) can be scattered and/or separated?

These threads suggest that the cremains MAY NOT BE scattered…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93720

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155083

…alternately, these articles suggest that the cremains MAY BE scattered…

catholicdiscussion.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/vatican-changes-rules-on-scattering-of-ashes/

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2008/01/vatican-changes-rules-on-scattering-of.html

…so what is the truth as of now?

At least one friend I know wants to take some cremains for a crucifix to keep on his/her neck and also perhaps keeps some on the mantle and also scatter some at sea and also bury some in his/her garden and also bury some next to the deceased’s mother. While, none of this would be done for pantheistic or other non-Catholic intentions; but, I still think the ashes need to stay together and be buried in 1 place (at home, in a cemetary, or other appropriate place) but need the Church documents to back up this position, etc.

(Please, I urgently need direct references to official Church teaching on this in order to help keep from having an issue in our family regarding this matter.)

Please advise.

Thank you.

Slave To The Virgin Mary, I am yours…

• Mark Kamoski

(name removed by moderator) has given you the official documents on the scattering.

The links you posted in the OP don’t say anything about scattering being allowed. They simply said that a Bishop made a statement that IF a person’s family wants to scatter the cremains and IF the priest conducting the funeral is aware of this, that is not a sufficient reason to deny a Catholic funeral.

 

[cemiller]

Anyone know the “why” behind this? I don’t understand why a person’s ashes couldn’t be spread if that’s what they wanted done with them…

 

[Corki]

…and if ashes cannot be scattered then how does that sync with the practice of relics, etc?

…perhaps because relics are expressly handled with deep veneration it makes it OK to move the remains around and keep them in a non-buried state?

(Just curious.)

I have always wondered about this too.

It may be because when someone holy dies, they are first given a Christian burial. First class relics are typically obtained only when a body is exhumed, usually as part of an examination or reburial along the way to canonization.

That’s just a guess on my part.

 

[cemiller]

I am aware that are bodies and souls belong to God. I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. The act itself of scattering of the ashes wouldn’t be denying the resurrection, God doesn’t need a whole body to perform a ressurection, there are bodies that are completely decomposed already that will still be resurrected when the time comes… Not to mention that one can bury their body whole and still deny the resurrection if they don’t believe in it. If relics can be taken, organs can be taken, and the bodies of the incurruptables torn to pieces to display then why would the ashes being scattered matter?

 

[Spencerian]

I am aware that are bodies and souls belong to God. I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. The act itself of scattering of the ashes wouldn’t be denying the resurrection, God doesn’t need a whole body to perform a ressurection, there are bodies that are completely decomposed already that will still be resurrected when the time comes… Not to mention that one can bury their body whole and still deny the resurrection if they don’t believe in it. If relics can be taken, organs can be taken, and the bodies of the incurruptables torn to pieces to display then why would the ashes being scattered matter?

The difference in scattering and the removal of relics is that, after being scattered, the person’s body cannot be respected (just as you would in visiting a gravesite), while a relic (a small part of a body or the complete remains of the person, buried or cremated) are always available for veneration.

In other words, if a person’s ashes were scattered on a beach, the body doesn’t have a focal point one can visit. Every bit of the body is lost among the sands and the sea.

If we have a body (even a tiny bit of it), and give it the respect a body is due, then we are able to pay our respects. A relic is a focal point, but it comes from the larger focus of the body where it is entombed.

While God will resurrect a body in any state, it is up to us to treat that body with the integrity it will earn at the end of time. The world itself is not a temple and so a body cannot be scattered about until its main focal point cannot be identified.

I don’t understand your statement about the bodies of incorruptables being “torn to pieces.” A canonized body of an incorruptable is treated with respect and often left whole. It may be that, in older times, some parts of a body that were separated are placed in veneration–but again, that is the point. You cannot venerate a beach where ashes were. You venerate the person, even if only a tiny bit. But there should still be a larger bit of that person in a respectful place somewhere as well.

To dump ashes randomly is not respectful of the body. To place ashes in an urn and to bury it or entomb it is OK. To remove a small amount from either said place is also respectful for veneration, especially in the formal processes of beatification and canonization.

 

[cemiller]

I aslo didn’t see in the Catechism quotes that you supplied that it is not allowed. It simply said that creamation was allowed as long as it was not a denial of the resurrection. I know someone posted a link earlier, but I haven’t had the the chance to read it since my broadband card is messing up on me I’m sure there is a reason if the Church does teach that way, so far there have been good, reasonable explinations of all the Church teachings that I’ve studied.

 

[cemiller]

The difference in scattering and the removal of relics is that, after being scattered, the person’s body cannot be respected (just as you would in visiting a gravesite), while a relic (a small part of a body or the complete remains of the person, buried or cremated) are always available for veneration.

In other words, if a person’s ashes were scattered on a beach, the body doesn’t have a focal point one can visit. Every bit of the body is lost among the sands and the sea.

If we have a body (even a tiny bit of it), and give it the respect a body is due, then we are able to pay our respects. A relic is a focal point, but it comes from the larger focus of the body where it is entombed.

While God will resurrect a body in any state, it is up to us to treat that body with the integrity it will earn at the end of time. The world itself is not a temple and so a body cannot be scattered about until its main focal point cannot be identified.

I don’t understand your statement about the bodies of incorruptables being “torn to pieces.” A canonized body of an incorruptable is treated with respect and often left whole. It may be that, in older times, some parts of a body that were separated are placed in veneration–but again, that is the point. You cannot venerate a beach where ashes were. You venerate the person, even if only a tiny bit. But there should still be a larger bit of that person in a respectful place somewhere as well.

To dump ashes randomly is not respectful of the body. To place ashes in an urn and to bury it or entomb it is OK. To remove a small amount from either said place is also respectful for veneration, especially in the formal processes of beatification and canonization.

Those are good points and a good explination, thank you Maybe my verbage was a little strong when I said “torn apart” I was really just referring to when the bodies were split apart. Anyone have any other sources? I’m still a little curious, though this explination makes a lot of sense

 

[Spencerian]

Those are good points and a good explination, thank you Maybe my verbage was a little strong when I said “torn apart” I was really just referring to when the bodies were split apart. Anyone have any other sources? I’m still a little curious, though this explination makes a lot of sense

History shows that many bodies of the venerated were partially disassembled in older times. Today that’s not customary but, back then, the significance of the holiness of a body was recognized, thus, the occasional partial disassembly. It’s like the anecdotal stories of 1960’s rock stars and zealous fans trying to tear parts of their clothing off, to have something of them. Today, we just get autographs or a photo.

You might appreciate this article on FishEaters, which tells more on the nature and disposition of relics, lists some saints and where their relics may be, including if there are more than one location where relics reside. It also goes into detail on incorruptability.

 

[whipp711]

The funeral and cemetary industry has got to love this thread.

Given the changes in practices over the centuries, edicts by the church, and sometimes revisionist interpretation of intent, I must admit to confusion and some degree of disagreement with the scattering issue as long as the situation does not demonstrate a denail of faith in the resurrection of the body.93

We have bits of the venerated scattered all over Europe. According to current catechism, they are in a heap of trouble.

Must admit, I need to study this more.

 

[Stylites]

Anyone know the “why” behind this? I don’t understand why a person’s ashes couldn’t be spread if that’s what they wanted done with them…

The Church teaches that the deceased must be afforded dignity, and if we do not scatter corpses around the meadows or dump bodies into the sea (when land burial is otherwise available) then we do not likewise scatter cremains.

Just because someone asks for something does not mean that Catholics are obligated to provide it. We need to always follow what Christ asks of us, through His Church.

 

[Stylites]

I aslo didn’t see in the Catechism quotes that you supplied that it is not allowed. It simply said that creamation was allowed as long as it was not a denial of the resurrection. I know someone posted a link earlier, but I haven’t had the the chance to read it since my broadband card is messing up on me I’m sure there is a reason if the Church does teach that way, so far there have been good, reasonable explinations of all the Church teachings that I’ve studied.

Yes, cremation is allowed, but the cremains must be interred in holy ground.

 

[cemiller]

[No message]

 

[only1truth]

I had never thought of this till recently. But I have had family die at different times while I have been deployed. I hadn’t gone to see any of the graves untill a couple weeks ago when we buried my grandmother. My sister lost her son when he was 18, and his grave is in the same area. Needless to say, I didn’t like seeing all the grief. Then my family went to other graves revisiting old grief from past losses. Those who mourn will be comforted, but I see the mourning return when they visit graves. It made me contemplate not having a grave. No place for people to mourn over. I don’t want anybody revisiting old losses.

How do I reconcile this with the requirements listed in the thread.

 

[Stylites]

Those who mourn will be comforted, but I see the mourning return when they visit graves. It made me contemplate not having a grave. No place for people to mourn over. I don’t want anybody revisiting old losses.

How do I reconcile this with the requirements listed in the thread.

Wanting to deprive loved ones of mourning is commendable, but life is what it is.

"A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance, "

 

[Corki]

I had never thought of this till recently. But I have had family die at different times while I have been deployed. I hadn’t gone to see any of the graves untill a couple weeks ago when we buried my grandmother. My sister lost her son when he was 18, and his grave is in the same area. Needless to say, I didn’t like seeing all the grief. Then my family went to other graves revisiting old grief from past losses. Those who mourn will be comforted, but I see the mourning return when they visit graves. It made me contemplate not having a grave. No place for people to mourn over. I don’t want anybody revisiting old losses.

How do I reconcile this with the requirements listed in the thread.

You can arrange to be burried or to have your ashes burried in an out-of-the-way place. You can arrange to be burried without a marker. You can be burried at sea. All of those would accomplish what you want.

However, while visiting a grave is sad, it is healing as well for many survivors.

 

[thistle]

(name removed by moderator);7962729:

Go to my first post above, where I cite the Order of Christian Funerals. In the highlighted portion you can see where it prohibits the scattering. Some explanation is provided as well in the prior provisions of the OCF which I provide.

liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/OCF/index.html

Actually, I’ve just noticed the link only gives extracts from the OCF. The entire OFC is apparently two volumes.