Can atheists be holy without sanctifying grace? (Merged)

[Lenten_ashes]

The persons acting as he did …and seeking goodness like he did can be a sign that he is seeking God.

The Church Teaches that yes it is possible for God to save them in a way known to God - but not seen by us!

We do not enter into life though by our “good deeds” by our virtues. But they can be a good sign of our openness to God even if we do not know it…that we are open to truth and goodness - open to God. God can work with this - God can reach us in ways others do not see.

Yes it is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church…but who still seek God…and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience …even if it is not an “explicit” seeking as I noted…

We just do not know all that God does “behind the scenes” as it were.

(Though one will find in Private Revelations such as to the Polish St. Faustina some interesting light on even in the very last moments of life -if the door is left open - God can still in his mercy save even those that seem beyond salvation…)

They do not though enter that state of salvation “by doing good”. They do not “earn it” - they cannot “earn” such initial justification. Such is by grace…by Jesus …

It will of course still be Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and Logos who saves them…(and Christians are to proclaim Christ…the Gospel to them!)

Whoever is saved in the end…will be saved by Jesus Christ…even if he has never heard of him or the Church …

Yes, it’s by the blood of the Lamb that anyone is saved including someone outside the faith.

But who says this person described with a heart for God is the norm in the realm of atheism?

You know that God calls atheists fools, right? Psalm 53:1

I never said it was. You are committing the straw-man fallacy, putting words in my own mouth then refuting them. You have no authority given to you by the Church and the Church provides no authority for you to state that most atheists likely go to hell.

No, it looks like you aren’t understanding my post, even after i provided scriptural clarification.

If you believe in the Words of Jesus, most people are going to hell, PERIOD. I believe Jesus, not people’s opinion of things that are a dime a dozen.

And I didn’t create any strawman argument. I did not say that was your position, I’m speaking of those who oppose the Church, typically fundamentalist protestants who are outraged over the idea of the Church claiming those outside of the faith can still get to heaven. They are mischaracterizing the Churches’ position.

God bless

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The Bible tells us plainly that more will be lost than saved and the Catholic Church teaches that very same thing.

I don’t know where you get this stuff from but your source is suffering some serious bias and error.

Correct x1000000000000000000

Exactly what I was saying. Thanks

 

[St_Francis]

I think the best example is that of Christ on His Cross, Who said, Today, you will be with Me in Paradise, to the good thief,mthe one who acknowledged both his sins and Christ’s Goodness.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

It’s not properly determined whether or not anyone, in the depth of their own heart, is an atheist at all. Maybe all of us believe that God exists and even believe that He rewards those who approach Him. Maybe we just suppress that knowledge and hide it in many rationalizations.

Are we guilty for those rationalizations? If a young woman loses her mother because a couple of Irish people blew up her apartment building, and if she can do nothing but exclaim, “I’m an atheist, thank God,” is she guilty for shaking her fists at God? I don’t know. But God does. And He is the one who judges each soul.

You know what else I don’t know? What God says to a soul as it’s being separated from the body. I don’t know what Christ decides to do for a man or a woman for whom He suffered. He may well approach them and offer Himself to them. But since I don’t know, I don’t presume one way or the other. I simply pray.

A lot of things are between a soul and God, and they’re not for my prying eyes to try to analyze.

:clapping:

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Yes, it’s by the blood of the Lamb that anyone is saved including someone outside the faith.

But who says this person described with a heart for God is the norm in the realm of atheism?

You know that God calls atheists fools, right? Psalm 53:1

Who says its not the norm? Do you have any evidence to suggest that most athiests are evil? Do you listen to the pope? or read the quote i provided. Or are you determined to be militant towards atheists? Or quite possibly are you questioning the will of God?

No, it looks like you aren’t understanding my post, even after i provided scriptural clarification.

If you believe in the Words of Jesus, most people are going to hell, PERIOD. I believe Jesus, not people’s opinion of things that are a dime a dozen.

And I didn’t create any strawman argument. I did not say that was your position, I’m speaking of those who oppose the Church, typically fundamentalist protestants who are outraged over the idea of the Church claiming those outside of the faith can still get to heaven. They are mischaracterizing the Churches’ position.

God bless

Where does jesus say most people are going to Hell? That a herectic statement? Quote me a verse where jesus says he wants most people in hell?

Quite the contrary, Jesus wants us all to spend eternal life with him.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Correct x1000000000000000000

Exactly what I was saying. Thanks

You’re very keen to damn people to hell, but very reluctant to provide the scripture that does.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Who says its not the norm? Do you have any evidence to suggest that most athiests are evil? Do you listen to the pope? or read the quote i provided. Or are you determined to be militant towards atheists? Or quite possibly are you questioning the will of God?

No, it looks like you aren’t understanding my post, even after i provided scriptural clarification.

If you believe in the Words of Jesus, most people are going to hell, PERIOD. I believe Jesus, not people’s opinion of things that are a dime a dozen.

And I didn’t create any strawman argument. I did not say that was your position, I’m speaking of those who oppose the Church, typically fundamentalist protestants who are outraged over the idea of the Church claiming those outside of the faith can still get to heaven. They are mischaracterizing the Churches’ position.

God bless

Where does jesus say most people are going to Hell? That a herectic statement? Quote me a verse where jesus says he wants most people in hell?

Quite the contrary, Jesus wants us all to spend eternal life with him.

You’re very keen to damn people to hell, but very reluctant to provide the scripture that does.

Excuse me, but you are putting words in my mouth now. I do not want anyone to go to hell…not one person.

I already quoted Matthew 7:14 in a previous reply to you, I’ll do it again:

Matthew 7:14New International Version (NIV)

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Why do you think Jesus spoke about hell 3 times as much as he did about heaven?

Because if you read his warnings like in Matthew 7:14, that will be the abode for most people. Jesus does not want that, and neither do I. So important we speak truth around here and not cotton candy gospel that makes us feel good.

God bless you.

 

[GKC]

THANKS!!!

I just fixed it. This is why I have my disclaimer about typos

Guessed that was the case.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Jesus also said you have to give all your possessions to the poor to get into heaven.

I bet you do not follow that.

You said most humans, and almost all non catholics are in hell, not me. Those are your words, not mine. Own them. Stop pretending like I put them in your mouth you.

Stop cherrypicking scripture as an excuse to damn people to hell. That is a mortal sin and will you be judged by God if you continue to make these disgusting and false statements.

 

[LiamQ]

Where does jesus say most people are going to Hell? That a herectic statement? Quote me a verse where jesus says he wants most people in hell?

One place this is mentioned is in Luke 13, wherein Christ talks about “entering through the narrow door.”

The problem is that, reading the context of Luke 13, it’s unclear whether Christ is talking about ALL MEN or simply about the Jews of His day.

22 He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,** you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door**, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

Again, the context here is clear. The door leads to a banquet, wherein some who actually saw Christ in the first century are forbidden to enter, since “some are last who will be first,” as in the Gentiles; and, “some are first who will be last” such as those Jews of the day.

In fact, just a bit later in Luke 13 we read Christ say:

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

One place this is mentioned is in Luke 13, wherein Christ talks about “entering through the narrow door.”

The problem is that, reading the context of Luke 13, it’s unclear whether Christ is talking about ALL MEN or simply about the Jews of His day.

Again, the context here is clear. The door leads to a banquet, wherein some who actually saw Christ in the first century are forbidden to enter, since “some are last who will be first,” as in the Gentiles; and, “some are first who will be last” such as those Jews of the day.

In fact, just a bit later in Luke 13 we read Christ say:

Once again, it is a narrow door, but where does it say where most people are going to hell.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Jesus also said you have to give all your possessions to the poor to get into heaven.

I bet you do not follow that.

You said most humans, and almost all non catholics are in hell, not me. Those are your words, not mine. Own them. Stop pretending like I put them in your mouth you.

Stop cherrypicking scripture as an excuse to damn people to hell. That is a mortal sin and will you be judged by God if you continue to make these disgusting and false statements.

What Jesus said about the population of hell is a reality. I would tell you to contact your parish priest so he can confirm this but it seems you are outside the faith.

You are equating apples and oranges with your comment about giving everything to the poor.

That’s poor exegesis as the Lord is merely demonstrating the heart of the unregenerate.

Not a mortal sin to preach the gospel with urgency, you are off base here.

It’s the gospel that saves, not pacifism and nice thoughts.

And I would appreciate it if you STOP saying that I am damning people to hell. I do not want anyone to got to hell, for the last time.

 

[LiamQ]

Once again, it is a narrow door, but where does it say where most people are going to hell.

It doesn’t.

My opinion is that that whole passage is a prophecy about how few Jews will accepts their Christ.

 

[LiamQ]

What Jesus said about the population of hell is a reality.

Jesus never commented on the population of hell. Again, the context of Luke 13 is a pretty clear reference to Jews rejecting Jesus.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesus also said you have to give all your possessions to the poor to get into heaven.

I bet you do not follow that.

You said most humans, and almost all non catholics are in hell, not me. Those are your words, not mine. Own them. Stop pretending like I put them in your mouth you.

Stop cherrypicking scripture as an excuse to damn people to hell. That is a mortal sin and will you be judged by God if you continue to make these disgusting and false statements.

May I suggest that rather than hijacking this thread that you PM the poster you are, to put it bluntly, attacking. I do not believe that you are reading his posts accurately. Please, charity here.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

What Jesus said about the population of hell is a reality. I would tell you to contact your parish priest so he can confirm this but it seems you are outside the faith.

You are equating apples and oranges with your comment about giving everything to the poor.

That’s poor exegesis as the Lord is merely demonstrating the heart of the unregenerate.

Not a mortal sin to preach the gospel with urgency, you are off base here.

It’s the gospel that saves, not pacifism and nice thoughts.

And I would appreciate it if you STOP saying that I am damning people to hell. I do not want anyone to got to hell, for the last time.

Its jesus that saves, not your gloomy descriptions of atheists going to hell for not having the capability to believe. I’m glad God knows whats truly in our hearts, I guess if it were up to you almost everyone would be going to hell. Still havent responded to the Pope’s quote, all you’re doing is just throwing out this “Almost all atheists are in hell” line and expecting it to convince me.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

May I suggest that rather than hijacking this thread that you PM the poster you are, to put it bluntly, attacking. I do not believe that you are reading his posts accurately. Please, charity here.

I am being charitable, Please lecture lentenashes on charity, not just those who are not catholic.

 

[Todd977]

how can catholics say atheist can go to heaven when hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossable to please god?

I would say that the word “faith” in Hebrews 11:6 refers not only to an explicit faith in God but also to an implicit faith in God. A person with an explicit faith in God is one who has been given the gift or grace of faith and has cooperated with that grace; a person with an implicit faith in God is one who has not yet been given the gift or grace of faith but, if they were ever given it, they would cooperate with it. Since it is possible for an atheist who is invincibly ignorant of God, i.e., who is ignorant of God through no fault of his own, to have implicit faith in God, it is possible for such an atheist to go to heaven.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Jesus never commented on the population of hell. Again, the context of Luke 13 is a pretty clear reference to Jews rejecting Jesus.

Is it possible we agree on something?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Jesus never commented on the population of hell. Again, the context of Luke 13 is a pretty clear reference to Jews rejecting Jesus.

The Church quotes him in CCC-1036

So we can be certain this is a general statement and not just for certain Jews of a certain era.

I don’t like it either, but it certainly seems to be the reality of the situation.

Narrow gate, few will find it…
:

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”