Can atheists be holy without sanctifying grace? (Merged)

[Lenten_ashes]

I’m not determined to any such thing. But the New Testament is very clear in many places both from Our Lord and the apostles. Look at Romans 1 for instance

2 Timothy 4:3-4New International Version (NIV)

3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

The only people going to Hell are those who scorn,despise and reject Jesus.

You mean like St Paul did when he was called Saul? Nobody is beyond the reach of God. They have until their very last breath to be redeemed by God. His mercy is infinite.

 

[Techno2000]

You mean like St Paul did when he was called Saul? Nobody is beyond the reach of God. They have until their very last breath to be redeemed by God. His mercy is infinite.

What I mean is if this is you mindset at your last breath, that is how you are going stay after you die.

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

What I mean is if this is you mindset at your last breath, that is how you are going stay after you die.

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

Unless if you come face to face with God, and repent when you realize how wrong you were.

 

[Wesrock]

Why are you so determined to damn over half of the population to hell.

You really need to stp accusing people, who are only trying to faithfully interpret doctrinal statements and in an area that’s had a wide spectrum of views, as being “determined” to or wanting to damn people to Hell. This isn’t the first topic you’ve done so. It makes as much sense as me accusing you of being determined to lead people into grave error and complicity.

 

[Wesrock]

Unless if you come face to face with God, and repent when you realize how wrong you were.

This isn’t to say a more universal view of salvation is wrong, but the Catechism is clear that judgment is immediately after death, that those who die in mortal sin without repenting (in life) are damned, and that those who die in God’s graces are purified and granted immortal life, and that death puts an end to being open to or rejecting sin. In other words it’s immediate and final.

The idea that you have a chance to meet God after death in order to repent prior to judgment is contrary to the Catechism. Refer to Part One, Section Two, Chapter Three, Article Twelve.

I’m not commenting on whether or not atheists or Buddhists or Catholics are saved, but judgment is immediate and death ends the time of accepting or rejecting God’s grace.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

This isn’t to say a more universal view of salvation is wrong, but the Catechism is clear that judgment is immediately after death, that those who die in mortal sin without repenting (in life) are damned, and that those who die in God’s graces are purified and granted immortal life, and that death puts an end to being open to or rejecting sin. In other words it’s immediate and final.

The idea that you have a chance to meet God after death in order to repent prior to judgment is contrary to the Catechism. Refer to Part One, Section Two, Chapter Three, Article Twelve.

I’m not commenting on whether or not atheists or Buddhists or Catholics are saved, but judgment is immediate and death ends the time of accepting or rejecting God’s grace.

Through god all things are possible.

If someone truly repented upon their judgement, who are you to say God would send them to the firey pits of hell. Only god knows whats truly in our hearts when we die my friend.

Peace.

 

[Wesrock]

Through god all things are possible.

If someone truly repented upon their judgement, who are you to say God would send them to the firey pits of hell. Only god knows whats truly in our hearts when we die my friend.

Peace.

Through God all things are possible. But who are you to say they have the opportunity?

You need to stop accusing people of projecting their wants on here. Just because someone believes it is a narrow road does not mean he wants it to be so. You are the one who seems to be letting his emotion shape his beliefs. We are only trying to articulate, not our own judgement on any of our own authority, but the Church’s judgment. In speaking of an opportunity after death, YOU are the one presuming to contradict the Catechism.

Perhaps the barrier for mortal sin is extremely high. Perhaps 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of humans ultimately are saved in the end. If they are, the Church would say it’s because they were open to God’s graces in this life, not because they repented after death.

 

[Wesrock]

You are the one who seems to be letting his emotion shape his beliefs.

To clarify this, a near universal approach to salvation may have rational arguments. My quoted opinion was not in response to your broad view in particular, but to the emotional accusations and appeals you’ve made in response to others with differing views. Even so, perhaps I overstepped in reversing it onto you.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Through God all things are possible. But who are you to say they have the opportunity?

You need to stop accusing people of projecting their wants on here. Just because someone believes it is a narrow road does not mean he wants it to be so. You are the one who seems to be letting his emotion shape his beliefs. We are only trying to articulate, not our own judgement on any of our own authority, but the Church’s judgment. In speaking of an opportunity after death, YOU are the one presuming to contradict the Catechism.

Perhaps the barrier for mortal sin is extremely high. Perhaps 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of humans ultimately are saved in the end. If they are, the Church would say it’s because they were open to God’s graces in this life, not because they repented after death.

Wow, You got nasty at me really fast. Cant we have a conversation instead of you insulting me? I am saying you cannot tell God that he cannot forgive someone after they die. That is heretic.

 

[Wesrock]

Wow, You got nasty at me really fast. Cant we have a conversation instead of you insulting me? I am saying you cannot tell God that he cannot forgive someone after they die. That is heretic.

You’ve hurled similar accusations at others, accusing people of having some sick perverse pleasure driving a want to damn people to hell.

Of course we cannot tell God what to do. We’re not trying to tell God what to do. We’re trying to articulate what God has revealed to us through his Son and his Church. The Church, Christ’s body, has said the opportunity to accept or reject God’s graces ends at death. It says the the state you are in when you die is what determines your salvation. It says that judgment is immediate. What God has revealed to us, then, is pretty clear. Your statement that we have an opportunity to repent after death, if true, makes the Church a liar, and makes God a liar. And you’re accusing me of stating a heresy?

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

You’ve hurled similar accusations at others, accusing people of having some sick perverse pleasure driving a want to damn people to hell.

Of course we cannot tell God what to do. We’re not trying to tell God what to do. We’re trying to articulate what God has revealed to us through his Son and his Church. The Church, Christ’s body, has said the opportunity to accept or reject God’s graces ends at death. It says the the state you are in when you die is what determines your salvation. It says that judgment is immediate. What God has revealed to us, then, is pretty clear. Your statement that we have an opportunity to repent after death, if true, makes the Church a liar, and makes God a liar. And you’re accusing me of stating a heresy?

When someone states that they believe all almost all atheists are going to hell with rare exceptions I take great offense to that. Not only is that a silly and innapropiate declartion to make it is also disgustingly false. I would appreciate if you recognized that when someone says your friends and family are probably going to hell that it is offensive and hurtful.

I am not saying God does take into account peoples repentance, I am saying he can if he wants. And if someones hearts truly is repentful maybe he would. I do not know, unlike you who feel the need to proclaim from the rooftop that its to late to repent after death. nevertheless, I am not accusing you of Hersey, I am just aware of extreme circumstances such as Immediate death or fatal injury that would prevent someone from repenting right before death and maybe God in all of his mercy would allow that person one more chance. I obviously disagree with your asessment that the church has never had a false teaching, Their have been numerous evil teachings the church has had in its histroy which I hope god did not support.

With all peace and respect

-Trinity

 

[Techno2000]

Unless if you come face to face with God, and repent when you realize how wrong you were.

I believe what you say is true for some, but others will still pull away from God’s love at their Judgement, and that is when they are in Hell.

 

[Techno2000]

Through God all things are possible. But who are you to say they have the opportunity?

You need to stop accusing people of projecting their wants on here. Just because someone believes it is a narrow road does not mean he wants it to be so. You are the one who seems to be letting his emotion shape his beliefs. We are only trying to articulate, not our own judgement on any of our own authority, but the Church’s judgment. In speaking of an opportunity after death, YOU are the one presuming to contradict the Catechism.

Perhaps the barrier for mortal sin is extremely high. Perhaps 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of humans ultimately are saved in the end. If they are, the Church would say it’s because they were open to God’s graces in this life, not because they repented after death.

And the Church has approved this…

St. Faustina had also one daily prayer that she never missed which was, “O Jesus inspire people to pray for the dying”. St. Faustina said that by prayer, “God’s mercy can touch the sinner even at the last moment, in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly,** it seems as if everything is lost**, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, can turn to God even in the last moment, with such a power of love that in an instant, it receives from God, forgiveness of all sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things”. (Diary 1698)

 

[Techno2000]

An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory

Excerpt :

I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having save us.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253

---

Dante’s Purgatorio

The Unshriven: Violent Deaths

We are all souls who met a violent death,
and we were sinners to our final hour;
but then the** light of Heaven lit our minds**,

and penitent and pardoning, we left
that life at peace with God, Who left our hearts
with longing for the holy sight of Him.”

 

[Church_Militant]

I get defensive when you falsify the words of our lord and savior jesus christ.

Please show me exactly where I did that. Oh and last time I checked phrases like “our lord and savior jesus christ” were capitalized as follows; Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and since this isn’t some teenage text message we here at CAF follow standard English rules in posting.

Personally, I prefer that in this case since we are speaking of Our Lord, okay?

So…anyway…show me these alleged falsifications and I’ll happily own up, but I don’t think you can. Just saying…

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m not sure why, but it seems the whole problem relates to a perception that someone who says that Christ Himself said that few would be saved, that the way was narrow, etc is someone not Christ, but that person–whether me, Church Militant, Lenten Ashes, etc. being the ones who are actually condemning 'almost all atheists to hell"

And that simply isn’t true. I think people have gone to great pains to state that not only would they themselves wish for all to be saved, but to hold out hope that any person, atheist or not, would accept the grace God will surely give them to choose His offer of salvation. Of course we hope that.

Jesus said of His return, “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?” We know we must ‘endure to the end’. We know that we need to take up the Cross, not try to find a way to ‘get by’ without it. And we know that if God does save any of us, it is through Faith and the Catholic Church. And that since it is hard for any of us to accept God’s offer (instead of wanting everything done ‘our way’) we need to be aware of how hard it is in order that we can pray, pray, and pray some more that all will accept salvation. We can’t just presume that everybody is going to be OK, because it seems quite clear that Jesus Himself wanted to give us an incentive by noting that it was NOT a ‘guarantee’ that ANY of us would ‘endure to the end’ unless we cooperate.

2 Timothy 4:3-4New International Version (NIV)

3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Thanks guys. It’s a real pleasure posting alongside you.

Unless if you come face to face with God, and repent when you realize how wrong you were.

Can you please give me chapter and verse in the Word of God where it states that. I’ve read the Bible (all 73 books of it) several times and I don’t recall finding a passage like that so help me out here…please?

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Please show me exactly where I did that. Oh and last time I checked phrases like “our lord and savior jesus christ” were capitalized as follows; Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and since this isn’t some teenage text message we here at CAF follow standard English rules in posting.

Personally, I prefer that in this case since we are speaking of Our Lord, okay?

So…anyway…show me these alleged falsifications and I’ll happily own up, but I don’t think you can. Just saying…

Once again, instead of debating me on substance, you resort to desperate insults and petty remarks about my grammar. For Christ’s Sake, I am getting sick and tired of being constantly attacked on a personal level on this forum. Its absolutely disgusting, and innapropiate.

To respond to your comment I provide you with evidence
John 5:29
“and come out–those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
Athiests who live good lives indeed have a chance of making it into heaven.

The judgement of condemnation in the Catchesism tells us not to judge people to hell. Saying Most atheists go to hell is doing just that.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Through God All Things Are Possible

If God sees truth and goodness in the repenter, even after he dies, Who knows how God judges him? I am sure you would not claim to know.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

I regret that this tread became so charged, however stating tha almost all atheists go to hell is a way to get people riled up. Also Personally insulting people for having a different opinion is not appreciated when a civil discussion is taking place.