Can atheists be holy without sanctifying grace? (Merged)

[Church_Militant]

I believe what you say is true for some, but others will still pull away from God’s love at their Judgement, and that is when they are in Hell.

Again…you’d have to provide some scripture in support of that and I don’t believe such exists.

Nor can you provide any authentic and authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church that would support it either.

You write this as if it is fact.
If so…*how *

is it fact?***Matthew 7:[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. ***

I thought Catholics did not follow the bible specifically?
As per most religious books, the Judeo-Christian bible is also biased toward it’s own religion.
And as we know, it is not inerrant.

Better check again. Here’s a good source to help correct that. Dei verbum

Really? We know that? Did I miss a memo somewhere? Nope! I didn’t so let’s look at what the church actually teaches about the scripture being without error.

**107 **The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

More references…

 

[Church_Militant]

I regret that this tread became so charged, however stating tha almost all atheists go to hell is a way to get people riled up. Also Personally insulting people for having a different opinion is not appreciated when a civil discussion is taking place.

Apology accepted. We haven’t done anything but cite scripture and Church teaching. If you are atheist I would point out something that Thomas Jefferson once said.**"**It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God." I feel the same way, but it’s not my soul we’re talking about so my feelings are not hurt.

If you have fallen away from the Catholic faith into atheism then I’m sure that you can count upon abundant prayers from all of us just as you can rest assured of mine.

My thinking is that I encourage you to seek truth and follow it at all costs.

 

[Church_Militant]

Once again, instead of debating me on substance, you resort to desperate insults and petty remarks about my grammar. For Christ’s Sake, I am getting sick and tired of being constantly attacked on a personal level on this forum. Its absolutely disgusting, and innapropiate.

That wasn’t an insult, just the common practice in proper English among Christians. Pretty thin skinned aren’t you?

To respond to your comment I provide you with evidence
John 5:29
“and come out–those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
Athiests who live good lives indeed have a chance of making it into heaven.

The judgement of condemnation in the Catchesism tells us not to judge people to hell. Saying Most atheists go to hell is doing just that.

You must be reading something other than what I’ve written man because I haven’t singled out atheists in particular, and neither has the Church. Now…if the shoe fits…

As to your scripture citation, let us look at it in context, okay?
***[21] For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
[22] The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
[23] that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[25] "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
[26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
[27] and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
[29] and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. ***
[30] “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
[31] If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true;
[32] there is another who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears to me is true.
[33] You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.
[34] Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that you may be saved.
[35] He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
[36] But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.
[37] And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
[38] and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
[39] You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
[40] yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
[41] I do not receive glory from men.
[42] But I know that you have not the love of God within you.
[43] I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
[44] How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
[45] Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope.
[46] If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me.
[47] But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

That wasn’t an insult, just the common practice in proper English among Christians. Pretty thin skinned aren’t you?

You must be reading something other than what I’ve written man because I haven’t singled out atheists in particular, and neither has the Church. Now…if the shoe fits…

As to your scripture citation, let us look at it in context, okay?
***[21] For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
[22] The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
[23] that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[25] "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
[26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
[27] and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
[29] and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. ***
[30] “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
[31] If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true;
[32] there is another who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears to me is true.
[33] You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.
[34] Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that you may be saved.
[35] He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
[36] But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.
[37] And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
[38] and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
[39] You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
[40] yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
[41] I do not receive glory from men.
[42] But I know that you have not the love of God within you.
[43] I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
[44] How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
[45] Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope.
[46] If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me.
[47] But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

Are you seriously denying now that you havent been supporting the notion it is likely almost all atheists are in hell?

In fact the context only strengthens my arguement! Thanks for the help:thumbsup:

 

[Church_Militant]

Are you seriously denying now that you havent been supporting the notion it is likely almost all atheists are in hell?

Likely…perhaps but a definitive judgement is above my own (and your) pay grade and for either of us to say so would go against Church teaching.

In fact the context only strengthens my arguement! Thanks for the help:thumbsup:

If you say so…however where do you get your infallible authority to interpret scripture like that, since the plain text I gave really needs almost none at all, and all Catholic authoritative teaching agrees with both that passage and what I have stated so be mad all you want but not at me. As St. Paul said in ***Galatians 4: 16 So now have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?

---

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Likely…perhaps but a definitive judgement is above my own (and your) pay grade and for either of us to say so would go against Church teaching.
If you say so…however where do you get your infallible authority to interpret scripture like that, since the plain text I gave really needs almost none at all, and all Catholic authoritative teaching agrees with both that passage and what I have stated so be mad all you want but not at me. As St. Paul said in ***Galatians 4: 16 So now have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?

---

If you think the truth is that 99% of atheists or almost all atheists are likely in hell, that’s your burden to bear.

 

[Church_Militant]

If you think the truth is that 99% of atheists or almost all atheists are likely in hell, that’s your burden to bear.

Not so, since I never said such a thing since, as I said it is above my pay grade and I am therefore unqualified to make such a judgement.

I can say that most people may well end up in hell because these are the statements of Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ.

I have no issue with His words when He plainly says, "[19] And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [20] And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "[26] Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” [27] And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; [28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. " (Matthew 26)

Now the gift is provided and offered to all (See 1st Timothy 2:4 and 2nd Peter 2:9) but what profit is a gift given if not accepted and in fact rejected? So then not all will do and if they persist then will they take possession of it anyway? And if that consists of the majority of the human race then whose fault is that? Mine? By no means for I wish that all would be saved, but I have no control of others.

Why are you so angry with me and my brothers and sisters here? We condemn no one and in fact pray and work to influence as many as possible to come with us into the Kingdom of God.

But let’s not forget that we need to understand salvation in the context of the whole New Testament and that while we hope, pray for, and work for the salvation of all we know that Our Lord is a just judge in His day. (See Matthew 25:31-46 for context)
***[31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” ***

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

I’m responding to the fact that you are acting all smug over the fact that you think so many are going to hell. You said you didn’t care about the others because they don’t effect you… perhaps you think you have a guaranteed ticket.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m responding to the fact that you are acting all smug over the fact that you think so many are going to hell. You said you didn’t care about the others because they don’t effect you… perhaps you think you have a guaranteed ticket.

You project a lot…I don’t think anyone on here would assert that I have been “smug” in any way and kindly don’t misconstrue what I have said.

If you don’t like what Christ has said then your issue is with Him…not me.

If you wish to troll, then you’re on your own effective right after this posts.

I will not sit here and take your unfounded and baseless insults.

From here on…it’s on you.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[TheAdvocate]

Say an atheist or agnostic doesn’t believe in God but does good works–in fact lots of them. On the one hand, we say that one cannot earn his salvation through works, and the only way to become holy is through sanctifying grace. But, that is only achievable by by faith through baptism.

Ergo, a non-believer cannot be holy no matter how many great works he does.

On the other hand, you have a baptized Christian, who does far fewer good deeds, and yet he is technically holier than the non-believer.

So here’s the problem: I have a hard time believing that a person who is a non-believer can do lots of wonderful deeds for others, but we can’t technically consider him holy, but the Christian would be holier just because he is baptized but is not doing nearly as much for his fellow man.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

It depends on why they don’t believe in God. If it’s simply out of a lack of introduction to God then that’s not really their fault.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Becoming Catholic is a gift. Some choose to increase that holiness throughout life by practicing the faith, obeying the Church, participating in the Sacraments. Others choose to put that gift in the back of the top shelf of their closet and bring it out at Easter, Christmas, baptism, funerals and weddings.

IMHO it’s a more serious responsibility being Catholic than being an atheist. It comes with serious obligations, it’s up to each Catholic to work on their faith daily, it’s on us what happens at the end.

Whereas an atheist doesn’t have the same gift, knowledge, responsibility, obligation and yet an atheist may “act” more “christian” than a baptised Catholic.

The Catholic isn’t promised anything just because he has been blessed with sanctifying grace, it’s what he does with that gift that is vitally important. Catholics have it tougher than the atheist who is stumbling around in the dark, yet God still loves his atheist prodigal son.

 

[porthos11]

Say an atheist or agnostic doesn’t believe in God but does good works–in fact lots of them. On the one hand, we say that one cannot earn his salvation through works, and the only way to become holy is through sanctifying grace. But, that is only achievable by by faith through baptism.

Ergo, a non-believer cannot be holy no matter how many great works he does.

On the other hand, you have a baptized Christian, who does far fewer good deeds, and yet he is technically holier than the non-believer.

So here’s the problem: I have a hard time believing that a person who is a non-believer can do lots of wonderful deeds for others, but we can’t technically consider him holy, but the Christian would be holier just because he is baptized but is not doing nearly as much for his fellow man.

This is not a matter of more-good-deeds-than-he. Holiness is not about a tally of good deeds, but how well one is conformed to Christ, whether or not this person has God’s divine life dwelling in him. Since he alone is holy, all holiness comes from God.

The baptized in sanctifying grace, even with a smaller scoresheet of good works than an atheist, is still holier, simply because he shares in the divine nature of God. THAT is what makes one holy, not whether one did more than the other.

Of course, one in sanctifying grace will have the actual graces to reach out in charity and there do these deeds find merit. And if one refuses to help his fellow man, he can lose the state of sanctifying grace through a mortal sin of omission.

We are not saved by works. The Catholic is WAY more blessed than the atheist who may end up doing more, but the flip side is also true: the Catholic is held to a much higher standard.

 

[Gorgias]

Say an atheist or agnostic doesn’t believe in God but does good works–in fact lots of them. On the one hand, we say that one cannot earn his salvation through works, and the only way to become holy is through sanctifying grace. But, that is only achievable by by faith through baptism.

Umm… there’s a problem – your last statement is false. Baptism is the normative way to receive sanctifying grace. However, as Catholics, we recognize that God may save a person through means known only to Him. For example, those “baptized in blood” or who are “baptized by desire” are not literally baptized, per se. However, through the grace of God, they receive sanctifying grace and are saved.

Ergo, a non-believer cannot be holy no matter how many great works he does.

A non-believer, whose lack of believe is not imputable to him, and who seeks the Good, may be saved. Would you call him ‘holy’ (in the Christian theological sense) here on earth? No. Would you call him ‘good’? Absolutely. Does that goodness lead him to salvation? Yes, it may.

So here’s the problem: I have a hard time believing that a person who is a non-believer can do lots of wonderful deeds for others, but we can’t technically consider him holy, but the Christian would be holier just because he is baptized but is not doing nearly as much for his fellow man.

I think you’re relying on the word ‘holy’ in a way that’s not particularly helpful. A person who is baptized is capable – by virtue of his baptism – of works of supernatural virtue. A person who is not baptized is capable of good works, but not capable of works of supernatural virtue. The question of whether a person is ‘holy’ or not is immaterial to that question, per se.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This is not a matter of more-good-deeds-than-he. Holiness is not about a tally of good deeds, but how well one is conformed to Christ, whether or not this person has God’s divine life dwelling in him. Since he alone is holy, all holiness comes from God.

The baptized in sanctifying grace, even with a smaller scoresheet of good works than an atheist, is still holier, simply because he shares in the divine nature of God. THAT is what makes one holy, not whether one did more than the other.

Of course, one in sanctifying grace will have the actual graces to reach out in charity and there do these deeds find merit. And if one refuses to help his fellow man, he can lose the state of sanctifying grace through a mortal sin of omission.

We are not saved by works. The Catholic is WAY more blessed than the atheist who may end up doing more, but the flip side is also true: the Catholic is held to a much higher standard.

 

[Bookcat]

Say an atheist or agnostic doesn’t believe in God but does good works–in fact lots of them. On the one hand, we say that one cannot earn his salvation through works, and the only way to become holy is through sanctifying grace. But, that is only achievable by by faith through baptism.

Ergo, a non-believer cannot be holy no matter how many great works he does.

On the other hand, you have a baptized Christian, who does far fewer good deeds, and yet he is technically holier than the non-believer.

So here’s the problem: I have a hard time believing that a person who is a non-believer can do lots of wonderful deeds for others, but we can’t technically consider him holy, but the Christian would be holier just because he is baptized but is not doing nearly as much for his fellow man.

*If *they are not in a state of Grace …they are not holy.

 

[Bookcat]

We do* not *enter into life by our “good deeds”… we do not enter such by our virtues.

But they can be a good sign of our openness to God even if we do not know it…that we are open to truth and goodness - open to God. God can work with this - God can reach us in ways others do not see.

Whoever is saved in the end…will be saved by Jesus Christ…even if he has never heard of him or the Church …

Not entering the state of true life by good works…but by grace.

 

[NM505StKate]

Atheists can be good without god.

 

[porthos11]

Atheists can be good without god.

Nobody can be good without God. Not even Christians, much less atheists.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Nobody can be good without God. Not even Christians, much less atheists.

Wrong.