Can Atheists go to Heaven? Are they sinners?

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AntiTheist said:
Those religions can’t all be right,
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Absolutely true.
AntiTheist said:
and if you choose the wrong religion, you’re in big trouble –
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This does not follow.

“Other religions” you reference don’t actually teach that those in other religions are in “big trouble” or “going to hell,” certainly the Catholic Church doesn’t. Some certainly do teach some variation of this, but it is not a universal teaching of religions in general that selecting another religion dooms one to hell. In fact, some of the religions don’t even have a concept of Hell at all and many religions are quite amenable to a person being whatever they want to be and see no conflict.
 
1ke said:
This does not follow.

“Other religions” you reference don’t actually teach that those in other religions are in “big trouble” or “going to hell,” certainly the Catholic Church doesn’t.
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Well, sure. I was oversimplifying for rhetorical effect.

But it is the case that a number of religions consign those who do not believe in their deities to some place of punishment after death – if not Catholicism (and some Catholics would disagree with you here, I think), then definitely other flavors of Christianity. For all you know, one of those other flavors of Christianity could be the one true religion.

Putting stock in any particular religion is a huge gamble, unlikely to pay off, given the large number of possible religions and possible consequences (and overall lack of evidence or way of distinguishing between them).

That’s why “gee, I’m not sure of my atheism…maybe I should go back to being a Catholic” doesn’t cut it. It assumes a false dichotomy and ignores all the other possibilities.

That’s all I’m saying.
 
AntiTheist said:
Well, sure. I was oversimplifying for rhetorical effect.

But it is the case that a number of religions consign those who do not believe in their deities to some place of punishment after death – if not Catholicism (and some Catholics would disagree with you here, I think), then definitely other flavors of Christianity. For all you know, one of those other flavors of Christianity could be the one true religion.

Putting stock in any particular religion is a huge gamble, unlikely to pay off, given the large number of possible religions and possible consequences (and overall lack of evidence or way of distinguishing between them).

That’s why “gee, I’m not sure of my atheism…maybe I should go back to being a Catholic” doesn’t cut it. It assumes a false dichotomy and ignores all the other possibilities.

That’s all I’m saying.
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I’m sure there are some that will say that you are going to hell for being atheist. How does that help out your situation? I would say it makes it worse. Where you could have 1 chance out of 100 religions, you have 0 chance. For the record this is not my reasoning for being Catholic. I just wanted to point out the errors in your thinking.
 
AntiTheist said:
Because if Islam is true, then converting to Catholicism would damn you to hell. Because if Hinduism is true, then converting to Catholicism would condemn you to their version of hell. Because if Zoroastrianism is true, then converting to Catholicism would condemn you to their version of hell. Etc., etc.
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Not so -
If a person is beginning from a position of believing in NO God and No Afterlifem they are already consigning themselves to embracing “death” and whatever that entails afterwards.
If such a person, an athiest, is converted with their whole understanding to one fo tehse other religions, they have at least embraced that something exists beyond bodily death. While their conception may not be teh same as the Christian one, most if not all major religions embrace the idea of Love and Peace as major core teachings.
Therefore if this convert, truly convicted in faith, reaches out at death to this Love, and Mercy, then I believe God will judge them properly based upon their conviction.

Peace
James
 
AntiTheist said:
Well, sure. I was oversimplifying for rhetorical effect.

But it is the case that a number of religions consign those who do not believe in their deities to some place of punishment after death – if not Catholicism (and some Catholics would disagree with you here, I think), then definitely other flavors of Christianity. For all you know, one of those other flavors of Christianity could be the one true religion.

Putting stock in any particular religion is a huge gamble, unlikely to pay off, given the large number of possible religions and possible consequences (and overall lack of evidence or way of distinguishing between them).

That’s why “gee, I’m not sure of my atheism…maybe I should go back to being a Catholic” doesn’t cut it. It assumes a false dichotomy and ignores all the other possibilities.

That’s all I’m saying.
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This makes no sense at all to me.

Basically you are saying that, by believing in NO God you can guarentee your “Gamble”. Of course what you guarentee is a LOSS.
If you believe in the God of Love, whether called Yahweh, Allah or whatever, you at least increase your chances to something above ZERO.

Peace
James
 
AntiTheist said:
Well, what if you’re wrong about atheism, but it turns out that Islam is true? Or Hinduism?

In that case, converting to Catholicism would be a huge mistake.
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Actually, I’m STILL better off if one of those turns out to be true.
  1. Atheism: Well, you won’t get to gloat, will you? 😉 And what will I have missed out on?
  2. Islam: Read more about what Muhammed REALLY taught about Allah. I’m not so sure I WANT to spend eternity with that guy…
  3. Hinduism: No sweat. If I picked wrong, I’ll choose better next time… when I’m a frog!
Sorry, I can’t help but see the humor sometimes!
 
JRKH said:
If you believe in the God of Love, whether called Yahweh, Allah or whatever, you at least increase your chances to something above ZERO.

Peace
James
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Yeah, but if you pick Jehovah and Allah is the real god, then you will fry in hell for all eternity. If you pick Jehovah and Wotan is the real god, then you will go to the Norse Hel instead of Valhalla. If you pick Jehovah and the Great and Terrible Cthulhu is the one true god, then you will be eaten.

I’m pointing out that there’s no evidence that any of those things is true. There’s no basis for choosing among the possible choices.
Hinduism: No sweat. If I picked wrong, I’ll choose better next time… when I’m a frog!
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Haha…the problem with reincarnation is that if you reincarnate without your past life memories, then it’s not really “you” at all having the experience.
 
The point that he is making is that no one can be sure…you all think that you are sure, but there is no proof, no hard evidence to show one religion is true in the face of all others….all the major religions are at a stalemate when hard factual proof is demanded….

To choose one religion just because your chances are better to get to heaven, is not a good reason to belong to a religion anyway….

And it’s true…if I were to choose Catholicism and it turns out Islam is the true religion, then all catholic or not, we are all infidels and will burn…the point is, what if you are wrong? And the truth is that there is no way to answer that question without running into barriers….
Those barriers are at the crux of this.
You can’t prove it why your religion is the true one….so essentially you are basing your belief on hearsay….”I believe because they tell me it’s true”.

Atheists are the ones that say without proof that your religion is the right one…actually, let’s step back…we say without proof that your religion even exist and further more is the right one, we choose not to believe in it.
We reject beliefs based on hearsay.

So the choice is moot, because there really is no choice…it’s essentially a choice between different opinions of subjectively interpreted.
So even when you are saying that you increase your chances above Zero, it’s still a choice between multiple uncertainties…
 
Bear_Claw said:
The point that he is making is that no one can be sure…you all think that you are sure, but there is no proof, no hard evidence to show one religion is true in the face of all others….all the major religions are at a stalemate when hard factual proof is demanded….

To choose one religion just because your chances are better to get to heaven, is not a good reason to belong to a religion anyway….

And it’s true…if I were to choose Catholicism and it turns out Islam is the true religion, then all catholic or not, we are all infidels and will burn…the point is, what if you are wrong? And the truth is that there is no way to answer that question without running into barriers….
Those barriers are at the crux of this.
You can’t prove it why your religion is the true one….so essentially you are basing your belief on hearsay….”I believe because they tell me it’s true”.

Atheists are the ones that say without proof that your religion is the right one…actually, let’s step back…we say without proof that your religion even exist and further more is the right one, we choose not to believe in it.
We reject beliefs based on hearsay.

So the choice is moot, because there really is no choice…it’s essentially a choice between different opinions of subjectively interpreted.
So even when you are saying that you increase your chances above Zero, it’s still a choice between multiple uncertainties…
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The evidence is all around you. You choose not to see it or believe it.

For example, there are some people that say the holocaust never happened. The evidence that it happened is all over the place. Some people just choose not to see it or believe it. We choose what we want to believe even when the evidence is there.
 
srferdave said:
The evidence is all around you.
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Lol! the only thing all arond me is nature…
Nature is all around you…that does not automatically denote proof of god…in fact it doesn’t denote it at all…and even if (that’s the biggest if ever) nature automatically equals proof of god…which god would that be? The one that created it all? Oh wait…they all claim to have done it…

I think some people want to beleive so badly that they would accept anything as evidence.
 
Bear_Claw said:
Lol! the only thing all arond me is nature…
Nature is all around you…that does not automatically denote proof of god…in fact it doesn’t denote it at all…and even if (that’s the biggest if ever) nature automatically equals proof of god…which god would that be? The one that created it all? Oh wait…they all claim to have done it…

I think some people want to beleive so badly that they would accept anything as evidence.
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Take one step at a time. You first need to believe that God does exist. Than after you’ve established that, you can review the evidence for which religion is the true religion.

BTW, nature is not the only thing i was referring to. There are miracles that happen every day.

Not believing in God because you don’t know what religion to follow is a huge cop-out. It is denying yourself of pure joy.
 
Bear_Claw said:
Lol! the only thing all arond me is nature…
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Right, nature is proof that nature exists. It doesn’t tell us anything about how it got here.

And, as Bear_Claw points out, even if you could demonstrate that it’s the work of a supernatural being – which no one can do – you’re no closer to determining whether it’s the work of Jehovah, Allah, Cthulhu, or the rest.
 
srferdave said:
Not believing in God because you don’t know what religion to follow is a huge cop-out.
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No, it’s being rational. I can understand that it would be difficult for you to imagine reasoning this way, but I’m not about to believe any story if it’s just an unconfirmed story.
 
Bear_Claw said:
No, it’s being rational. I can understand that it would be difficult for you to imagine reasoning this way, but I’m not about to believe any story if it’s just an unconfirmed story.
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There is rational proof for the existence of God. It would be in your interest to at least study that proof before giving up on it without even giving it a shot.
 
srferdave said:
There is rational proof for the existence of God. It would be in your interest to at least study that proof before giving up on it without even giving it a shot.
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I’m all ears…show me your proof.
 
Not believing in God because you don’t know what religion to follow is a huge cop-out.
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I don’t think anyone’s claimed that not knowing which religion to follow is a reason for not believing in gods – it’s a reason not to choose among the world’s religions.

Instead, the reason most atheists don’t believe in gods is that there’s no evidence they exist.
srferdave said:
Now my turn… Where is the proof that God does not exist?
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Proof doesn’t work like that, generally. The burden of proof is on those making the claim, not those denying the claim. Without evidence, the rational position is to reject the claim until evidence is forthcoming.

And arguing that “existence exists, therefore God” isn’t going to cut it in most people’s books.
 
AntiTheist said:
Well, what if you’re wrong about atheism, but it turns out that Islam is true? Or Hinduism?

In that case, converting to Catholicism would be a huge mistake.
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If Hinduism is true, then the worst that is likely to happen is that you get some good karma by living as a devout Catholic, and then get reborn as a Hindu Brahmin in another life where you will have a fuller knowledge of the truth.

One version of Hinduism does have a doctrine of eternal damnation, but as far as I know they don’t think that being a non-Hindu damns you.

Some Muslims believe that all non-Muslims go to hell, but many invoke the passage from the Qur’an which says that those who live righteously in other religions will be saved (the strict exclusivists claim that this refers only to those who lived before Muhammad’s teachings were widely proclaimed).

Similarly, Catholics (and other moderate Christians) teach that non-Christians who follow the truth as they know it are being led by God’s grace and that God will not damn them for their sincere ignorance. That isn’t even a particularly liberal view–the Catholic Church was teaching it back in the 19th century.

So the whole idea of converting as “fire insurance” is silly. You should follow the truth, period.

Edwin
 
AntiTheist said:
Because if Islam is true, then converting to Catholicism would damn you to hell. Because if Hinduism is true, then converting to Catholicism would condemn you to their version of hell. Because if Zoroastrianism is true, then converting to Catholicism would condemn you to their version of hell. Etc., etc.
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You should take the trouble to study the religions in question before making claims about what they believe.

Edwin
 
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