Can bishops agree on Communion for Politicians?

  • Thread starter Thread starter stbruno
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I just wonder if they will adhere to whatever is decided, or if something will be decided.
Since they won’t decide anything beyond leaving the decision up to each bishop there won’t be anything to adhere to.
I hope we finally get some definition and consistancy in this regard.
I do too. But I’m not holding my breath. It is painful to see the bishops make this decision based on their political preferences.

Ender
 
Since they won’t decide anything beyond leaving the decision up to each bishop there won’t be anything to adhere to. I do too. But I’m not holding my breath. It is painful to see the bishops make this decision based on their political preferences.

Ender
Oh ye of little faith! God is in charge! The Holy Spirit is alive and well too!
 
From the article:
In his interview, Cardinal George called some Catholic politicians’ voting records “scandalous,” but he questioned whether the bishops could agree on a uniform policy.
“We’re going to talk about it,” he said. “I don’t know what’s possible and what’s not.” He isn’t the only one.


What is scandalous is the fact that our Bishops cannot agree on such a basic issue and that they refuse to protect Our Lord from people who assist with the legalized killing of our children. My goodness, what other Christians must think of this mockery and the failure of our ‘shepherds’ to stand up for their faith.

I am praying that God’s grace will pierce the hearts of our Bishops and this is the day they begin to to turn their weakening reputation around by doing what is right.

I would love to know where each Bishop stands on this issue.
 
They first must decide on U.S. policy toward Iran, the status and future efforts in Iraq, immigration policy and all the other things that are important to them. One doubts they will have much time for minor matters like abortion.

I believe today is devoted to Iraq.
 
I certainly hope they come up with a workable policy. We have a Governor who is Catholic and pro-abortion.

Of course, this is a very important issue for the upcoming presidential election.

Very sad all around how so many female politicians, especially Democrats, are practically forced to take a pro-abortion stance in order to get any financial support.

Is there any difference between being refused communion and being excommunicated? Also, are these politicians already technically excommunicated because of their support of abortion?
 
I do not think full agreement is possible. Why? Read the USCCB Voting Guide, it covers a very large spectrum of issues. Neither major party or politician will be perfect. So, then you get into the messy debate about over-emphasizing one point and under-emphasizing another and the complicated debates behind each issue which can be spun in every direction possible.
 
Let’s see…neither party is going to seriously SHRINK the size of the Federal government, at best the GOP is only going to control the growth from 7% to 3% per year.

So explain to me how voting GOP somehow threatens “the poor” or all those other “social” issues that are supposed to “trump” or “balance” the Life issues?

Even IF the federal congress seriously threatened all these social programs, what’s to stop the States from boosting their domestic spending programs (via tax hikes locally)? NOTHING! If the people want to help the poor via tax hikes locally, let them vote themselves tax hikes on the ballot!

So what’s the real threat to “the poor and underpriviledged” that we’re supposed to protect against by spliting our votes between the GOP and DNC?

When it gets down to brass tacks, there really isn’t wiggle room politically for a Catholic to vote Democratic locally, state, or federally as the PARTY has been bought and paid for by anti-Catholic and anti-life special interests.

EVEN IF one life was just as valuable as another (no distinction made for adults who are unjust aggressors vs. children and infants who are not), voting GOP would result in fewer deaths than going Democratic. 1.5 million abortions per year PLUS all the foreign abortions they fund when in power more than out weighs all the battle deaths caused in the last 6 years.

I repeat - the poor have their cities and state governments to take care of them should somehow the federal government need to reduce THE RATE OF GROWTH of social spending. It’s just apples to oranges to compare one party with the other when it comes to which is morally superior - across the board, it’s the GOP.
 
Judy Brown has some very strong words about the bisops’ new document on political responsibility (all.org):
“If you are now totally confused about what the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is telling the faithful about the murder of innocent preborn babies and the supremacy of this question versus all others, join the club!
I am disgusted with this statement. By the way, tell me why abortion is mentioned by name 15 times, but war is mentioned 21 times and poverty is mentioned 17 times–and the word “murder” which defines abortion is never mentioned.”
I think she makes some very good points. The document seems to say that it’s merely “legitimate” to disqualify a candidate for supporting crimes against life (“the five non-negotiables”) but nothing more. It seems to put abortion on the same level as “racism” (elsewhere, the USCCB defines it as “Discrimination based on the belief that some races are superior to others,” which is serious and contrary to faith, justice, and charity, but is it really on the same plane as murdering a preborn infant?). It finally implies that there is a significant problem of prolifers neglecting other issues (frankly, I don’t see it: can anyone prove Clinton was significantly better than Bush for the poor? Are there that many more people starving in the USA simply because we have a somewhat prolife president?).
To be fair, I think this statement is better than past statements on this subject. However, in between the lines you can’t help seeing the seething tension among the bishops over how to deal with Catholic proabortion pols.
 
I am so frustrated with our Bishops, and my admiration for Raymond Arroyo grew IMMENSELY last week when I saw him interview a Bishop. I can’t remember the Bishop’s name, but Raymond, more than once, pointed out the confusing and seemingly contradictory statements in the Bishop’s document about whether or not a Catholic could vote for a pro-choice candidate.

Raymond then followed up with what I thought hit the nail directly on the head - I’m paraphrasing and wish I had his exact words, but he basically asked the Bishop why the USCCB was so clear and exact in its political recommendations, but when it came to moral issues - the very heart of what they shepherd their flock on - they are not exact and clear. He asked this question at least twice. The only answer the Bishop could give was - I think the document is clear to those who read it. WRONG!

God bless Raymond Arroyo for having the courage to ask tough questions in a respectful but direct manner.
 
I am so frustrated with our Bishops, and my admiration for Raymond Arroyo grew IMMENSELY last week when I saw him interview a Bishop. I can’t remember the Bishop’s name, but Raymond, more than once, pointed out the confusing and seemingly contradictory statements in the Bishop’s document about whether or not a Catholic could vote for a pro-choice candidate.

Raymond then followed up with what I thought hit the nail directly on the head - I’m paraphrasing and wish I had his exact words, but he basically asked the Bishop why the USCCB was so clear and exact in its political recommendations, but when it came to moral issues - the very heart of what they shepherd their flock on - they are not exact and clear. He asked this question at least twice. The only answer the Bishop could give was - I think the document is clear to those who read it. WRONG!

God bless Raymond Arroyo for having the courage to ask tough questions in a respectful but direct manner.
👍

The short answer to the original post: NO!!
 
i went to a theology on tap recently on canon law. the priest brought up this issue and acknowledged the bishops are split and that he didn’t have an opinion on the matter.

his excuse for the bishops not restricting communion is that the pro abortion politician could go to confession before hand without the priest/bishop knowing it and would therefore be unjustly denied communion.

this obviously is a weak argument based on a exception which is reason enough to question this line of logic. besides, if the politician was seriously repentant, he would make sure that the faithful and the priests know that has changed his position and returned fully into the church.

what this comes down to is bishops who are worldly and bishops who are true sheperds. their job is to lay their life down for their flock. it’s cowardly and anti masculine to back down when innocent lives are at stake.

the worst part of his talk was when he commented negatively on people who claim obedience to the pope and not to the bishop. while i agree on surface with this, i felt that this was a subtle criticism on traditional minded catholics who feel ostracized by their bishop, especially when it comes to liturgical practices and pro life issues.
 
I am so frustrated with our Bishops, and my admiration for Raymond Arroyo grew IMMENSELY last week when I saw him interview a Bishop.

God bless Raymond Arroyo for having the courage to ask tough questions in a respectful but direct manner.
I would love to see a video of this. I went to EWTN but couldn’t find it. Do you know where I could do so?
 
. …
his excuse for the bishops not restricting communion is that the pro abortion politician could go to confession before hand without the priest/bishop knowing it and would therefore be unjustly denied communion.
. . .
I think if one has publicly denied Church teaching he is required to publicly recant his stance to obtain absolution.
 
I do not think full agreement is possible. Why? Read the USCCB Voting Guide, it covers a very large spectrum of issues. Neither major party or politician will be perfect. So, then you get into the messy debate about over-emphasizing one point and under-emphasizing another and the complicated debates behind each issue which can be spun in every direction possible.
Voting choices are more complex for the individual voter. This thread is about Communion for politicians whose voting is much clearer. If a Catholic politician votes ‘no’ on a laws restricting abortion and publically states that they are pro-choice, then it would be acceptable for the Bishop to make a decision to deny them the Eucharist.

On life issues, it is fairly clear. For other issues, it is not. If there is a minimum wage increase, changes in the welfare program, etc., then it is possible to support both sides of these issues from a Catholic viewpoint.
 
Sure it’s possible to honorably support different sides of LOTS of issues - minimum wage, speed limits, safety regulations, FDA drug protocols, EPA regulations about parts per billion… honorable Catholics can - and do - disagree about which policy proposal is most appropriate given the wider picture of a federal government in DEBT and running DEFICITS.

Some may honorably say “well sure it’s not really “free” money, but the poor need the borrowed dollars now so to heck with the future generations who will be left holding the bag when this blows up”. They have a point: people hurting now need help now. Others have a point that stealing from Peter to help Paul might not be the best way to help Paul.

But an honest and honorable Catholic can’t in good conscience claim to be so if he/she comes down in favor of abortion. Or slavery. Or the intentional carpet bombing of whole cities.

The hitman who makes his fortune killing people doesn’t become less a monster because he tithes to “help the poor”. Helping the poor is a good thing. But it doesn’t cover the sin of murder.

You can’t choose an intrinisic evil - proposed as a political policy by some candidate or the candidate’s party and still regard yourself as a good Catholic, because good Catholics by definition don’t choose intrinisic evil.

IF the GWOT consisted of US Military forces routinely and as a matter of policy carpet bombing entire towns and cities, then it would be intrinsically evil and any politician or party that proposed, supported, and wished more of this would be evil.

Since the GWOT doesn’t consist of such a policy, it’s not intrinsically evil. Though morality still holds for Jus In Bello obviously. A Just war might involve unjust acts - just as the Police - duly authorized to uphold law and order may also occasionally commit injustices. Those injustices don’t vitiate the whole kit and kaboodle.

But abortion and sodomy are different. Here we don’t have occasional “oops” but political policies and laws that support the direct, intentional killing of the completely innocent and defenseless among us or the direct, intentional support of one of the deadly sins that “cries to heaven for vengeance”.

Abortion and sodomy ARE intrinsic evils - as per the Catholic Church. If you disagree with these moral judgements then you are disagreeing with the Catholic Church and hence…are not “a good Catholic”.

And there is one political party totally in favor of promoting, safeguarding, and expanding BOTH.

So it doesn’t matter if this party also likes the idea of a $1.50 hike in minimum wage or regulations about improving enviromental conditions. Those are nice position and policies, but they don’t absolve the party in question from being in favor of intrinsic evil.

It’s not complicated. What IS complicated is the internal politics of professional Catholic working in chanceries, vicariates, and “catholic” colleges and universities who as a group tend to be Democrats first and Catholics second. These folk lobby the Bishops in no uncertain terms about what they won’t tolerate - and one of those things they won’t tolerate are “ultimatums” about sexual morality. It’s either their way, or the highway as in “let me keep doing what I want OR I’ll make life very miserable for you”.

And so, out comes the overly nuanced, contradictory, vague statements that are the result of committee haggling that allows “all parties” to read into the document that their side is right and their candidate or party is right or at least they can justify their votes…

Now to be most charitable these statements could be construed as the bishops temporizing, stalling to avoid schism while they hope for a change of hearts and minds (or more likely for vociferous opponents to just retire). But then, why bother issuing a statement at all?

I think what happened is they saw the need to give guidance - but it was hijacked by the political correct among them and their staffs who sought to head off any clear, categorical teaching for partisan (as opposed to Catholic) gain. The USCCB being a body that votes, and it’s not hard to see how things can be watered down for the sake of consensus.

In the end, lay people will need to take on fellow lay people in the forum of ideas and settle the dispute. We need to evangelize our neighbors. The easy way out of having a clear statement from the pulpit won’t happen. It’s going to be the messy way of hodge podge coalitions forming, statements, and a plethora of other “means of communication” being employed to change hearts and minds.

And we also need to support our bishops personally - let them know that if they lead according to the heart and mind of the Church we - and many besides us - will follow, stand up for them, back them up, protect them. It might not hurt to volunteer for service at their chanceries…
 
Legislators take an oath of office which includes upholding the laws and constitution of the republic. Currently, the law of the land as written and as interpreted by the courts allows a woman to legally obtain an abortion. By taking the oath of office the elected candidate nominally agrees to defend this law. This does not mean that the individual espouses abortion, only that he or she supports rule by law. There is a vast difference.
In regard voting records it is often the case that completely unrelated clauses are piggy-backed onto legislation. The basic legislation is important and approved and garners sufficient support to pass. This means that unrelated things less acceptable get carried because a lawmaker can’t justify to the constituancy failure to vote for manifestly beneficial programs and policies. You can’t pass a general rule to excommunicate these people because you would effectively bar Catholics from holding political office. And we don’t want that to happen. Not the Pope, not the bishops, and not the faithful at large.

Matthew
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top