Can Catholics Be Moral In America?

[PEPCIS]

My Question: Are all Catholics who decide to participate in Modern American Life committing a mortal sin, simply by choosing to participate?

Well that depends alot on what you are talking about. It seems as though you are equating a generalized train of thought with a specific act. It does not seem to me that you are treating this in a logical manner.

I’ll see if I can point out the discrepancy as we go along.

Zach:

1.Participtating in modern American society results in innocent people suffering and dying.

That’s a very strong accusation. Basically, that statement can only be interpreted one way: every American is guilty of murder by lieu of their acceptance of practices committed by others that they are unaware of.

At the best, you might charge America with ignorance. But “murder”? I don’t think so.

Zach:

1. Ignorance of a mortal sin one commits is no defense.

This seems to be the “hook” that you use to retain other’s culpability in a crime, as yet undefined.

Zach:

1. We all have freewill to choose to participate or not in modern American society. Billions of people across the globe do not participate everyday.

That’s a bit simplistic. Everyone participates, either actively through willful action, or inactively, by passive ignorance. And you’re right, there are billions across the globe who do not participate in American society.

Zach:

4… WE all choose to participate in the modern American society.

Realistically, there is no way that we can “unplug” from American society unless we wish to follow the way of a Ted Kaczinski. What you’re suggesting is that we disconnect all electricity, gas, telephone, and other modern conveniences. Please advise on what you are suggesting is a true alternative.

Zach:

. . . by participating in modern American society innocent people suffer and die. Even though one does not personally inflict the suffering and death with one’s two hands by one’s decision one condones and actively participate in a system that leads to this horrifying consequences. The same if one paid Mr. X to kill Mr.Y so that one could have Mr. Y’s watch/oil/cheap plastic product/etc.

This is absolutely nothing like that. If this is true, then the government should pass laws which regulate such activities so that there is no illegal death and suffering.

Otherwise, I’d like to hear your positive assertions of what needs to be done.

 

[zachforn]

That’s a very strong accusation. Basically, that statement can only be interpreted one way: every American is guilty of murder by lieu of their acceptance of practices committed by others that they are unaware of.

At the best, you might charge America with ignorance. But “murder”? I don’t think so.

This was why I started the post. Because we are not “unaware” of it. There are thousands of articles and books written on this subject, you, yourself, may be unaware of it, I myself was until I started getting involved a few years ago, but “we” as a society are not “unaware” of it. And if “we,” that is you, or anyone on this post who now by taking part in this dialog understands that there *even might/] be a chance that what I’m saying is correct, needs to do the research to either prove or disprove it. If the research is not done, and the discussion just goes on and on without anyone (you) doing research, then one is not only choosing to participate in American society, but also *choosing/] to remain ignorant on these issues. And that is fine, that’s everyone’s prerogative, mine and yours. We get to choose.

This seems to be the “hook” that you use to retain other’s culpability in a crime, as yet undefined.

I have defined it If you haven’t read the posts on this thread (or any of the research) I can see your confusion. I would suggest read the postings on this thread and some of the research. Because the actions and consequences of out actions are certainly defined within.

That’s a bit simplistic. Everyone participates, either actively through willful action, or inactively, by passive ignorance. And you’re right, there are billions across the globe who do not participate in American society.

“passive ignorance” may not be an accurate understanding. The research is out there. It’s our responsibility to understand the consequences of our actions.

Realistically, there is no way that we can “unplug” from American society unless we wish to follow the way of a Ted Kaczinski. What you’re suggesting is that we disconnect all electricity, gas, telephone, and other modern conveniences. Please advise on what you are suggesting is a true alternative.

That is certainly what the question may be moving towards. But, again, that what’s the post is asking, why do we allow and participate in the suffering of others to be comfortable? Following God’s mercy and love may not be a “comfortable” endeavor. I don’t think it’s supposed to. Sacrifice your comfort for God’s glory. It’s tough, certainly.

This is absolutely nothing like that. If this is true, then the government should pass laws which regulate such activities so that there is no illegal death and suffering.

How do you know there is “absolutely nothing” like that? Have you done the research? What would you say if I told you that two years ago a group of us went to a Vietnamese factory that uses lead based solder. The solder is used in car electronics. The solder sticks have to be handled with gloves provided by the company, but the gloves have holes in the fingers! They are touching lead day in and day out, because the company won’t fork up the cost of replacing the gloves!

Do you know what would happen if the government passed laws to ban computers and plastics and petroleum based products? There would an cry against “liberal” actions, there would be a revolution! We are the people and the people WANT their comforts. we crave them.

Otherwise, I’d like to hear your positive assertions of what needs to be done.

Stop buying plastics, electronic devices, etc. Stop driving your car, etc. Slowly (or quickly) work you way off the grid, somehow. I don’t know. I really don’t know. But that doesn’t change the fact that the system we participate in now, that system that fulfils our cravings produces suffering and death in innocent others.*

 

[zachforn]

Zach, what you really need is some solid instruction in moral theology. Perhaps then you would abandon this Luddite crusade. There are multiple online college-level courses on this very subject available online. I know of two off of the top of my head. The fact remains that you are in error because participation in American (or Modern, lets not be only pointing the finger at the United States) Society is not the direct cause of suffering.

Hi CW!

Can you connect this statement to the earlier discussion on Thomas Aquinas’ concept of Double Effect? That way we are discussing some specifics, rather than generalities, so I can address or respond to the points you’re making.

Even if every person on this forum agreed that we should withdraw from society as you suggest, nothing would change. Human suffering in the industries you mention would persist.

I would disagree, if there is no demand, the supply chain ceases. Pretty cut-n-dry understanding of supply and demand. What do you think?

 

[CWBetts]

Hi CW!

Can you connect this statement to the earlier discussion on Thomas Aquinas’ concept of Double Effect? That way we are discussing some specifics, rather than generalities, so I can address or respond to the points you’re making.

I would disagree, if there is no demand, the supply chain ceases. Pretty cut-n-dry understanding of supply and demand. What do you think?

I think ther are 300,000,000 consumers in the United States. There are 1 .5 BILLION consumers in China. For real change to happen, using your supply-demand process, the few people on this forum would make no difference. I think you are having a disconnect with the numbers of consumers we are dealing with. Furthermore I am not personally responsible for the wrongdoings of others. I am responsible for what I do. By your logic, If I buy a book by a publisher who uses a printer that is also used by a pernographer, I am responsible for the publication of pronography. Your logic is flawed.

 

[zachforn]

I think ther are 300,000,000 consumers in the United States. There are 1 .5 BILLION consumers in China. For real change to happen, using your supply-demand process, the few people on this forum would make no difference. I think you are having a disconnect with the numbers of consumers we are dealing with. Furthermore I am not personally responsible for the wrongdoings of others. I am responsible for what I do. By your logic, If I buy a book by a publisher who uses a printer that is also used by a pernographer, I am responsible for the publication of pronography. Your logic is flawed.

Yes, huge numbers are involved. But that doesn’t deny YOUR personal responsibility.

Your presentation of my logic is not correct. My logic would be if you buy a book, knowing that the bonding agent (the glue) in the spine of the book contained plastics that produce adverse health effects on the laborer handing it (which some do, again, do the research), and you continue buying such books instead of an alternate book that does not contain the poisonous bonding agent, there may be an issues of being guilty of sin.

Again, can you please connect your responses to Aquinas’ Double Effect, since that is a pretty good set of criteria to determine if something is moral or not. And gives us specifics to talk about.

Thanks.

 

[CWBetts]

Actually, I am unsubscribing from this thread because I refuse to get into a debate with someone who has absolutely no concept of personal responsiblity. We have both national and international governing bodies that are meant to combat the alleged atrocities you speak of. My personal responsibility ends when I place my trust in these bodies to do the job for which they were intended. If they fail to do the job, I can work to make changes with my vote. I do not need to be urged to withdraw from modern society by someone who is unwilling to do so. If you were willing, then why are you here, using a computer no less, something you contend is a grave sin? There is a word used in th Scriptures to describe people like this: Pharisees.

 

[Dolphincrc]

Zach, you keep mentioning over and over about these books as if they were the Bible. This is where your problem lies, in these doom and gloom books and you havent even considered alternative views nor are you willing to. Also, just because it’s published doesn’t mean it’s true.

For exanple, you will find lots of books about the catastrophe of global warming, but there is also research that indicates the opposite. Another example is Malthus’ theories on population growth.

My advice is to stay off sensationalist books and read something more uplifting- like the Bible.

 

[zachforn]

Zach, you keep mentioning over and over about these books as if they were the Bible. This is where your problem lies, in these doom and gloom books and you havent even considered alternative views nor are you willing to. Also, just because it’s published doesn’t mean it’s true.

For exanple, you will find lots of books about the catastrophe of global warming, but there is also research that indicates the opposite. Another example is Malthus’ theories on population growth.

My advice is to stay off sensationalist books and read something more uplifting- like the Bible.

Hi Dolphin.

You must not have read my previous posts where I dealt with the issue of counter “arguments” or ideas. The brief reading list I posted includes books that present counter idea, some of them are the counter ideas. Read them and find out

 

[zachforn]

My personal responsibility ends when I place my trust in these bodies to do the job for which they were intended. .

Hi CW.

I would disagree that that is when personal responsibility ends. Many of history’s atrocities were stopped, thank God, because certain people realized that their personal responsibility does not end because someone else is suppose to do a job that their not doing.

I do think we, me, you, all of us, are dealing with a massive historical issue in today’s world. One that has been bubbling for centuries: the suffering that the haves demand of the have-nots.

I look to God as I understand God to exist for a complete understanding. God has sent witnesses into horrible conditions to report back to us the atrocities that go on in our names. Why do you think God has shown us this evidence? I would really like your opinion on this. I would like a deep, honest conversation about this. Too many threads begin to become just words and ideas being thrown around, rather than issues that change behaviors to better match God’s mercy and love.

 

[Marfran]

Hi Lily!
It’s weird how we get…“hooked” on conveniences to such an extent we imagine we ‘need’ them, but in the final analysis are just comfort objects that pull us further into “the system.”

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[phoage]

I had started writing an answer based on sociatial effort to correct the problems you are raising but it appears from later posts that you are only concerned with individual effort so I will respond based on an effort I can make on my own.

I must use modern industrial products to live, PERIOD. I take medicine without which I will live about a month at most. I did not notice anything in the documentation you list referncing drug manufacture but some of it is related to plastics manufacture.

My job is a 40 minute drive in the car but w/o the car it would take me about 3 hrs to bike here. At my age that in itself might kill me but if not, I would be sore enough to wish I was dead. The car ('95 model 4 cyl, 35 MPG) uses some computer chips and much plastic to achieve its efficiency.

I cannot do my job w/o the computer my company supplies. The job cannot be done at all using any less advanced technology. 20 yrs ago, the job I was doing did not exist.

I (like most people) buy my food in a grocery store. Modern agriculture uses plastics in numerous ways, even if it is organically grown.

It takes about 1 acre of land to grow enough food for one person, so to support me and my wife would require 2 acres. In this part of the country (Teaxs) it also requires water. I do not have it and canot afford to get it.

These are just a few cursory personal examples of the difficulty of what you seem to be suggesting. You have offered a problem but offered no solution to it other than a generic "withdraw from modern (American) society. As an alternative, I would offer prayer, and a sincere individual attempt to correct abuses where I find them and where I can do something constructive. This is not imidiate, nor even quick but we did not get here overnight, and no matter how strenuous and sincere our efforts, we are still a world of falable humans.

Lord! Give me the strength to correct the wrongs I can, the fortitude to bear those I cannot and the wisdom to tell the difference.

Patrick

 

[edwest2]

First, your question concerns Catholics in America. The biggest problem facing everyone in this country is a breakdown in the appropriate means of carrying on a proper relationship between men and women, particularly in preparation for marriage as a life-long commitment.

Each business owner is responsible for knowing how his or her business affects others. Have you contacted any business or trade organizations about this? Most individuals in America do not have comprehensive knowledge since the Food and Drug Administration is tasked with making sure that food and drink containers meet certain health standards. Foreign trade organizations in the US are required by law to not deal with companies that mistreat workers.

Peace,
Ed

 

[zachforn]

These are just a few cursory personal examples of the difficulty of what you seem to be suggesting. You have offered a problem but offered no solution to it other than a generic "withdraw from modern (American) society. As an alternative, I would offer prayer, and a sincere individual attempt to correct abuses where I find them and where I can do something constructive. This is not imidiate, nor even quick but we did not get here overnight, and no matter how strenuous and sincere our efforts, we are still a world of falable humans.

Lord! Give me the strength to correct the wrongs I can, the fortitude to bear those I cannot and the wisdom to tell the difference.

Patrick

Patrick:

I Know. It is extremely difficult! I don’t have solutions, yet. I don’t think most Catholics even know there is a problem.

The only solution I come close to is about ten years ago, my then girlfriend and I hiked a portion of the Appalachian Trail. In the southern stretches in Spring, we went for about two months eating only what could be foraged and fished. (She was kind of a naturalist and while it didn’t workout between us, she steered me onto this current path). We were able to get by relatively easily to be honest. I know we can’t all be roaming the woods of the U.S, because they’re hardly are any more old woods left (another issue). So I don’t know what the solution is.

But that doesn’t take away from the fact that we are participating in a huge sinful problem.

Again, I would only ask that people do the research to find out the what the situation is.

 

[zachforn]

Each business owner is responsible for knowing how his or her business affects others. Have you contacted any business or trade organizations about this? Most individuals in America do not have comprehensive knowledge since the Food and Drug Administration is tasked with making sure that food and drink containers meet certain health standards. Foreign trade organizations in the US are required by law to not deal with companies that mistreat workers.

Peace,
Ed

Hi Ed!

I don’t know about you, but I certainly don’t want to have to rely on the government to deal with my personal responsibility (whether it’s teaching my children values, or telling me which religion to follow, etc). And from the looks of your previous postings on other threads, it looks like you agree that the government should not be tasked with, or force us to submit to them taking over our responsibilities. Am I right?

Personal responsibility it just that, personal, don’t you agree?

 

[bugz2007]

It is a good argument. However, I would ask how much mortal damage did living in Rome actually do to innocent others. I don’t know. I understand that slavery was part of the Roman system, however could early Christians purchase food, property, etc, without actually dealing with slavery at any level? If so were they guilty of sin, just because they were “Roman”?

Were Romans roads built by slave labor? If so, and an early Christian used that road to haul a food cart to markets to sell fruits, then that Christian would be using “mortal sin” labor to profit. I guess, the question is, did early Christians KNOW they were participating is such sin? We can’t know that answer. Maybe they didn’t, maybe the did.

However, we do know what our system leads to (right?), so we can’t claim ignorance.

But, it is an interesting speculation, what did the early Christians know of their involvement and the consequence of that involvement?

Early Christians in Rome paid taxes because Christ told them to. I’m sure this tax money went to pay for roads, other slave labor, and activities in the Coliseum. Regardless of what the individual Roman or Christian knew, Christ would know where that money was going. And He instructed people to pay unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Did Christ instruct us to commit mortal sin by financially supporting these immoral activities? Why would he not have instructed all to quit their jobs and move off of Roman land in order to avoid financing all of this?

On another note, if Catholics depart from American society and start fending for ourselves apart from all of these industries, meaning any resources we have are used just to help us maintain a decent quality of life, how can we possibly begin to help our unfortunate brothers and sisters suffering in third world countries and on the streets of our own country?

We must also stop accepting money for any services rendered, even if we aren’t consuming these “dirty” products, since others are probably earning money by consuming them. So we end up without any money, and just what we can gain for ourselves from the land.

 

[PEPCIS]

"Zach:

1. Ignorance of a mortal sin one commits is no defense.

PEPCIS:

This seems to be the “hook” that you use to retain other’s culpability in a crime, as yet undefined.

I have defined it

No, not really. To begin with, if it were a crime, our government would most likely have already passed a law that would hold us accountable. Since we aren’t the ones who would be accountable for any death or injury, then it is clear that we are not, nor could we, be held accountable.

Secondly, if this were a spiritual crime, then you could clearly lay out the Biblical passage that would be the foundation for our “crime”. But you cannot.

So, it would seem that both American jurisprudence and Christian law do not hold American Christians accountable.

Zach:

If you haven’t read the posts on this thread (or any of the research) I can see your confusion.

I have read, but I don’t see the connection. You have yet to explain how it is that we are culpable in the deaths of others.

For example, if I buy a car from you, and you bought that car from John, and John bought that car from Mary, and Mary bought that car from Elijah, and Elijah bought that car from Chrysler, then how can it be that I should be held responsible?

What if all car manufacturers were outlawed, and all the automobiles that you could buy are only those that were already built? If I purchased one in 2025, would I be culpable in the deaths of those who made that car 16 years before?

I don’t see any connection to me. I could understand it if you were to say that we had to hold those companies accountable for their actions, but you are simply allowing them a free ride, and instead are holding us regular people responsible. Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense to me.

Zach:

Stop buying plastics, electronic devices, etc. Stop driving your car, etc. Slowly (or quickly) work you way off the grid, somehow. I don’t know. I really don’t know. But that doesn’t change the fact that the system we participate in now, that system that fulfils our cravings produces suffering and death in innocent others.

I think there are better ways of dealing with this. Instead of making the average Joe responsible for the actions of big corporations, I think it would be better to make big corporations responsible for their own actions.

 

[zachforn]

Early Christians in Rome paid taxes because Christ told them to. I’m sure this tax money went to pay for roads, other slave labor, and activities in the Coliseum. Regardless of what the individual Roman or Christian knew, Christ would know where that money was going. And He instructed people to pay unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Did Christ instruct us to commit mortal sin by financially supporting these immoral activities? Why would he not have instructed all to quit their jobs and move off of Roman land in order to avoid financing all of this?

It is certainly some interesting speculation on where early Christian taxes went and what Christ knew, and if their taxes were supporting sin, and then why Christ would instruct them (us?) to support sinful activity via our taxes. These are good questions.

But in the final analysis I’m really not so concerned with what governments are doing, I’m concerned with the personal responsibility we all have to do it ourselves.

Matthew 16:24: Jesus says "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. To me the denying of the “self” is the denial of the vanity and comforts of the “easy life” of ego gratification. Jesus says it right there, take up the cross, take up struggle, abandon the comfortable life of ego.

On another note, if Catholics depart from American society and start fending for ourselves apart from all of these industries, meaning any resources we have are used just to help us maintain a decent quality of life, how can we possibly begin to help our unfortunate brothers and sisters suffering in third world countries and on the streets of our own country?

Living in modern culture provides material wealth to assist others, but it is just that material. I’m sure you have helped some one in an immaterial way, yes? And in many ways this immaterial help is more important than material wealth. This immaterial help would still be open to you if you had no material wealth.

I also wonder if all the “help” in a modern society is off-set by the harm that is done by and perpetuated because of comfort living and the products and processes needed for such a lifestyle.

 

[bugz2007]

I also wonder if all the “help” in a modern society is off-set by the harm that is done by and perpetuated because of comfort living and the products and processes needed for such a lifestyle.

I guess it’s a question of rather we want to let people die of starvation, AIDS, and disease because we want to avoid participating in society and thereby creating dangerous jobs for people to do, or help those same people by participating and then using the talents and resources we have gained from participation to help them.

Also, why are there people suffering from being homeless, jobless, and starving if it’s so easy to exist without participating in society? Couldn’t they just go live off the land? After all, we apparently don’t need material wealth in order to exist.

 

[zachforn]

To begin with, if it were a crime, our government would most likely have already passed a law that would hold us accountable

Looking at previous posts of yours on other thread there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that you trust our government to do anything moral. Why all of a sudden do you think they would be “moral” on this issue?

I have read, but I don’t see the connection. You have yet to explain how it is that we are culpable in the deaths of others.

For example, if I buy a car from you, and you bought that car from John, and John bought that car from Mary, and Mary bought that car from Elijah, and Elijah bought that car from Chrysler, then how can it be that I should be held responsible?

All I can say is if you want to really discuss this you have to read some books on this issue. I don’t mean to sound high-brow or snotty about this but you’re giving arguments on an issue, no offense, but on an issue that you haven’t really looked into. And again that is the point of this thread. Look into it. Research. Go see. And after you have, bring up some points

Answer me this: I’m not talking about “legalities” I’m talking about the feel of God’s mercy and love: Do you feel you are or are not responsible in the following situation:

I mentioned the Vietnam factory that uses lead based solder in car electronics in a previous posting. The lead based solder causes lead poisoning, which resulted in reproductive disorders and neurological issues with many current and former laborers at the factory. Now, let’s say you did the research and you know that these people are suffering to make Car A, you know this. Car B (exact same car) however is built from a company that is dedicated to human rights and to the dignity of human labor, you know this too. Now, how much responsibility do you have as a member and participant of God’s mercy and Love, how responsible are you to make the “right” choice in which car you buy?

I don’t see any connection to me. I could understand it if you were to say that we had to hold those companies accountable for their actions, but you are simply allowing them a free ride, and instead are holding us regular people responsible. Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense to me.

I think there are better ways of dealing with this. Instead of making the average Joe responsible for the actions of big corporations, I think it would be better to make big corporations responsible for their own actions.

I’m not looking to deflect responsibility to companies. Certainly, those companies are responsibility, and should be held responsible, but they are only trying to make a profit in a market created by the purchasing decisions of you and me and all of us.

I don’t doubt that it doesn’t make sense to you. Research it. Find out. And it will.

 

[edwest2]

Hi Ed!

I don’t know about you, but I certainly don’t want to have to rely on the government to deal with my personal responsibility (whether it’s teaching my children values, or telling me which religion to follow, etc). And from the looks of your previous postings on other threads, it looks like you agree that the government should not be tasked with, or force us to submit to them taking over our responsibilities. Am I right?

Personal responsibility it just that, personal, don’t you agree?

Your view of the government is inconsistent with its stated purpose and proposes that we have some influence beyond that which we actually possess.

The issue comes down to trust. In the 1950s, evangelist Billy Graham went to the Eisenhower Administration to ask if some of the country’s surplus wheat could be diverted to help feed the poor. Farmers in the US are paid billions of dollars to not grow anything every year. In fact, when other countries attempt to send food where it is needed, that country’s government can impose a tax on that food and/or a fee that does not include transporting it to where it is needed. Sometimes, local militias ambush the trucks, kill the drivers and take the food for themselves. Aid workers are killed by militias or others in other countries. Why? Getting outside help in the way of food reduces the impact of the dictatorial government that uses food as a weapon to keep the people in line.

I believe in individual responsibility, yes. I do for myself what I can do with the resources I am given. But societies composed of millions of people set up federal, state and local systems, run by individuals, that through a division of labor, certain tasks can be carried out by those with the knowledge and experience to do them. Not all of us can be doctors or lawyers or run our own business.

You speak to rank and file Catholics here, but what do you suggest as solutions? It is public knowledge that a large corporation operating in Mexico dumps dangerous chemicals directly into the ground since there are no laws, or enforcement agency in place to stop them. The goal is profits before people. The goal is to look out for number One.

There used to be something called Civics that was taught in the United States. Your were taught what it meant to be a responsible citizen, a productive citizen, working in cooperation with your fellow citizens.

The United States could airlift enough food and drink to fill the stomacks of those starving around the world, right now. Why doesn’t it? Who would pay for the food and water? Who would pay for the planes and boats and ships? Who would provide professional armed military guards to ensure it got to its destination without it being stolen by heavily armed militias?

You need not just point out problems, you must propose practical solutions. At one time, most citizens trusted the government in the US. Right now, I don’t know to what degree the majority of the population still does. But government’s job is to provide for the national defense, to redress grievances given to it by the people and to administer the resources given to it by the people to employ its members who set policy, make war and determine the course of this country domestically and internationally.

Catholics are under attack, along with Christians in general, by a media that is vulgar, coarse and increasingly uncivilized. A secular media that embraces pagan ideas and derides things derived from religion. It should concern everyone here that the media believes it needs to demonize religious people as part of its job. So-called comedians spew anti-Christian messages all the time, Hollywood produces anti-Christian and immoral movies all the time, and TV shows profoundly dysfunctional characters – anti-role models. Recently, there is talk of legalizing marijuana. Isn’t that great? People can now be drunk and high at the same time.

For real solutions to occur, it requires a country whose people are united ideologically, or at least, on speaking terms. Radical individualism means millions of people are going in a million different directions.

I recommend people give to the poor through their local Church and volunteer, if they can, to serve the poor. If you see a man with a sign that reads: Homeless. Please help. You should consider giving what you can to that person.

Peace,
Ed