Can Catholics Be Moral In America?

[zachforn]

I guess it’s a question of rather we want to let people die of starvation, AIDS, and disease because we want to avoid participating in society and thereby creating dangerous jobs for people to do, or help those same people by participating and then using the talents and resources we have gained from participation to help them.

It’s a tough issue I agree. I would also suggest you do some research on why there are locations on the globe that experience repeating societal starvation patterns, I think you’ll find that economic systems designed to protect the capital and wealth of first world nations plays a substantial part in this cycle. Same with disease. For instance: why is it taking so long to get cheap AIDS medications to parts of Africa? All I ask is do the research and find out for yourself. Please.

Also, why are there people suffering from being homeless, jobless, and starving if it’s so easy to exist without participating in society? Couldn’t they just go live off the land? After all, we apparently don’t need material wealth in order to exist.

I don’t know why they suffer. It’s hard I suppose, which is what makes our horrifying but comfortable modern life so difficult to leave behind. But, again, maybe faith is not suppose to be comfortable.

I don’t know. All I know is that in my travels, dealing with this kind of stuff, I’ve seen things that made me think, “If Americans knew this is how things are, they would change.”

And I have faith in God and people to make the right choices when they know the situation. It’s hard to change, I agree, but…

 

[bugz2007]

It’s a tough issue I agree. I would also suggest you do some research on why there are locations on the globe that experience repeating societal starvation patterns, I think you’ll find that economic systems designed to protect the capital and wealth of first world nations plays a substantial part in this cycle. Same with disease. For instance: why is it taking so long to get cheap AIDS medications to parts of Africa? All I ask is do the research and find out for yourself. Please.

I don’t need to do the research. I know there are terrible structures interfering with the efforts to aid these suffering individuals. But there is a disconnect here. You are demanding personal responsibility for doing our part to prevent things that are happening in some countries, or at least not participating in them, while not accepting my taking personal responsibility for doing whatever I can to help other people. Especially when what I am doing is not evil. And if it is immoral at all, it is definitely not grave matter. So at worst it would be venially sinful. I don’t think it is sinful at all.

 

[zachforn]

Your view of the government is inconsistent with its stated purpose and proposes that we have some influence beyond that which we actually possess.

The issue comes down to trust. In the 1950s, evangelist Billy Graham went to the Eisenhower Administration to ask if some of the country’s surplus wheat could be diverted to help feed the poor. Farmers in the US are paid billions of dollars to not grow anything every year. In fact, when other countries attempt to send food where it is needed, that country’s government can impose a tax on that food and/or a fee that does not include transporting it to where it is needed. Sometimes, local militias ambush the trucks, kill the drivers and take the food for themselves. Aid workers are killed by militias or others in other countries. Why? Getting outside help in the way of food reduces the impact of the dictatorial government that uses food as a weapon to keep the people in line.

I believe in individual responsibility, yes. I do for myself what I can do with the resources I am given. But societies composed of millions of people set up federal, state and local systems, run by individuals, that through a division of labor, certain tasks can be carried out by those with the knowledge and experience to do them. Not all of us can be doctors or lawyers or run our own business.

You speak to rank and file Catholics here, but what do you suggest as solutions? It is public knowledge that a large corporation operating in Mexico dumps dangerous chemicals directly into the ground since there are no laws, or enforcement agency in place to stop them. The goal is profits before people. The goal is to look out for number One.

There used to be something called Civics that was taught in the United States. Your were taught what it meant to be a responsible citizen, a productive citizen, working in cooperation with your fellow citizens.

The United States could airlift enough food and drink to fill the stomacks of those starving around the world, right now. Why doesn’t it? Who would pay for the food and water? Who would pay for the planes and boats and ships? Who would provide professional armed military guards to ensure it got to its destination without it being stolen by heavily armed militias?

You need not just point out problems, you must propose practical solutions. At one time, most citizens trusted the government in the US. Right now, I don’t know to what degree the majority of the population still does. But government’s job is to provide for the national defense, to redress grievances given to it by the people and to administer the resources given to it by the people to employ its members who set policy, make war and determine the course of this country domestically and internationally.

Catholics are under attack, along with Christians in general, by a media that is vulgar, coarse and increasingly uncivilized. A secular media that embraces pagan ideas and derides things derived from religion. It should concern everyone here that the media believes it needs to demonize religious people as part of its job. So-called comedians spew anti-Christian messages all the time, Hollywood produces anti-Christian and immoral movies all the time, and TV shows profoundly dysfunctional characters – anti-role models. Recently, there is talk of legalizing marijuana. Isn’t that great? People can now be drunk and high at the same time.

For real solutions to occur, it requires a country whose people are united ideologically, or at least, on speaking terms. Radical individualism means millions of people are going in a million different directions.

I recommend people give to the poor through their local Church and volunteer, if they can, to serve the poor. If you see a man with a sign that reads: Homeless. Please help. You should consider giving what you can to that person.

Peace,
Ed

We are on the same page in a way, Ed. My struggle comes from talking to people about this, which I have and I do all the time, it’s actually part of my job, and I get so frustrated with people sometimes, me, the guy who wants to hug everyone and make sure we can all get along, I get frustrated with people when they shut down when this issue comes up. I get frustrated that I don’t turn my AC on, that I sunk thousands of dollars into solar panels, that I bike miles out of my way to shop at a local grocer, that I do so much (as a lot of people do), and some people don’'t even want to THINK about the POSSIBILITY of their consequences, (and my tiny little sacrifices are NOTHING compared to what I’ve seen and researched), and there are people who WANT to remain ignorant of their choices. I get frustrated.

But we are on the same page in a way.

 

[edwest2]

And about “choices” facing the average American. How many here grow their own food? How many here get their water from a well?

How many here believe the complete falsehood that this country is “addicted to oil”? Huh? Until recently, there was no choice but to get a car that used gasoline. Do you get that? No choice. You want a car – gasoline only.

My parents grew up on farms. All they needed from the outside world were shoes and a few tools. That was life in the United States for most people as recently as 100 years ago.

I watched the City of Detroit slowly die. Businesses closing little by little for decades. Now, portions are uninhabited and uninhabitable. No need to look at third world countries to find problems. And I’m positive I was not the only one who noticed what was happening.

Greed is the number one problem preventing a lot of things from being better.

You want cell phones and computer parts made in an environmentally friendly way? It’s possible but it’s expensive. Like a supplier to the Big Three automakers said, “They will never come in here and tell you they want to pay more for a part.” So one supplier took it upon themselves to create a part out of environmentally friendly materials but they could do it only if it cost exactly the same as the original part.

Peace,
Ed

 

[WackBob]

Trying to blame all this bad **** on American trade is a bunch of bull. Of coarse it does happen, but also with other nations. Saying that everything we Americans use in everyday life contributes to horrible suffering of people in 3rd world contries is absurd. I’m not denying it’s existance but not every buisiness that does international trade causes this kind of destruction.

 

[phoage]

Originally Posted by zachforn
I Know. It is extremely difficult! I don’t have solutions, yet. I don’t think most Catholics even know there is a problem.

It is all very well to point out problems like this but for the discussion to be something more than frivolous accusations or other hot air you must offer solutions. The only solution you have offered is a very general “withdrawal from modern (American) society”. I and others on this thread have pointed out numerous specific problems with this solution that make it either highly impractical or impossible, yet the only response you have is, “But that doesn’t take away from the fact that we are participating in a huge sinful problem.”

In my case specifically ( I cannot speak for others) the implementation of your solution would lead you my death from stroke, effectively suicide. When my doctor diagnosed my current condition 15 years ago I had a blood pressure of 210/154. Thus this is not a theoretical out come.

You say that you do not believe most Catholics are even aware of the problems. I do not know if you have been outside of this country but I was in the Military for 15 years and spent most of my time overseas. I have seen poverty that most people do not believe when I describe it. I personally am aware. I also know what limitations I operate under that mitigate on me rectifying the problem.

As an aside: the research books you mentioned. I have not personally read all of them but one that you mentioned deserves further commentary, “Silent Spring”. Among other this, it is a scathing denouncement of DDT. What you may not be aware of is that the study results that it uses to reach its conclusions are heavily slanted. Yes, DDT is a poison. Yes, ingesting it will kill you. Yes, spraying it heavily on wildlife will kill the wildlife. However.

If it is used correctly by trained applicators it significantly reduces the reproduction of mosquitoes that transmit malaria and yellow fever. These diseases were on the way out as major killers in the 3rd world before the banning of DDT but since have had a massive resurgence. Now this is of little import to us in this country as we have other , more expensive preventatives and cures but it is devastating to the 3rd world where they can no longer use this relatively safe, effective deterrent.

You have said (correctly) repeatedly in replies, “Do the research”. You have to do all the research though. Not just the books that report the results, but the method for gathering the data, interpreting it, and the bias (there is always bias) of the investigators.

Patrick

 

[Tsuwano]

I think your question, is it possible to live a moral life in America (or any other society for than matter), touches on the concept of original sin. Original sin is sin we are born into simply by being born as human. All humans, except for our original parents, Adam and Eve, have been born into human societies and relationships that in some way or form have been built upon exploitation of others. As an individual I am not responsible for or even fully aware of the web of sin that has connected me to all sin leading back to the first sin, but as a member of the human race I participate in the society and enjoy the fruit that sin has helped create. For example, I have never owned a slave, but I participate in a society which has been built upon the exploitation of others. I have never gone to war to conquer anyone, but I am from a part of the world that was conquered and taken from others and I participate in the fruit of that exploitation. No human person can say they do not partake of the results that some sin or another has played a part in attaining. It is impossible. The only human persons to not experience original sin were Jesus and his mother, Mary, who by the nature of their call as Messiah and mother of the Messiah, are exempt from original sin. So, your question “Can Catholics be moral in America” can be answered in the affirmative, I believe, but as humans we can not avoid, even as saints, participating in the web of sin that connects all human societies from the beginning of time to the present era, including the sin of modern America. Fortunately, our baptism grants us the grace to recognize sin in our midst and the power to change our stance toward society, so that, though we cannot avoid the sin of our human past, we can overcome the sin of our present.

 

[zachforn]

It is all very well to point out problems like this but for the discussion to be something more than frivolous accusations or other hot air you must offer solutions. The only solution you have offered is a very general “withdrawal from modern (American) society”. I and others on this thread have pointed out numerous specific problems with this solution that make it either highly impractical or impossible, yet the only response you have is, “But that doesn’t take away from the fact that we are participating in a huge sinful problem.”

In my case specifically ( I cannot speak for others) the implementation of your solution would lead you my death from stroke, effectively suicide. When my doctor diagnosed my current condition 15 years ago I had a blood pressure of 210/154. Thus this is not a theoretical out come.

You say that you do not believe most Catholics are even aware of the problems. I do not know if you have been outside of this country but I was in the Military for 15 years and spent most of my time overseas. I have seen poverty that most people do not believe when I describe it. I personally am aware. I also know what limitations I operate under that mitigate on me rectifying the problem.

As an aside: the research books you mentioned. I have not personally read all of them but one that you mentioned deserves further commentary, “Silent Spring”. Among other this, it is a scathing denouncement of DDT. What you may not be aware of is that the study results that it uses to reach its conclusions are heavily slanted. Yes, DDT is a poison. Yes, ingesting it will kill you. Yes, spraying it heavily on wildlife will kill the wildlife. However.

If it is used correctly by trained applicators it significantly reduces the reproduction of mosquitoes that transmit malaria and yellow fever. These diseases were on the way out as major killers in the 3rd world before the banning of DDT but since have had a massive resurgence. Now this is of little import to us in this country as we have other , more expensive preventatives and cures but it is devastating to the 3rd world where they can no longer use this relatively safe, effective deterrent.

You have said (correctly) repeatedly in replies, “Do the research”. You have to do all the research though. Not just the books that report the results, but the method for gathering the data, interpreting it, and the bias (there is always bias) of the investigators.

Patrick

You are right about Silent Spring, it’s an older research project, which was why I was hesitant about listing older research, because older research was a first step and all first steps are tenative and unknown. And I knew as soon as I posted it, it would be attacked. However, while the research for that project was at times interpreted in a certain manner, it was not interpreted to a level that distorts the results because the conclusions have been retested and reapplied and stand up. Have you read Silent Spring?

But, again, I would suggest more modern research projects because the ground work has been done (by books like Silent Spring) and we understand the layers of a given ecology (both natural and bio-economic ecological systems) deeper than we did 50 years ago.

Of course, there is always bias. I agree.

Solution #1: First step to do TODAY (this is what I tell clients): Walk through your home. Make two lists. List 1: write down things in your home that you need to live and make a living (food, frig, stove, computer, etc). List 2: write down things that you do not need to live and make a living (tvs, rugs, art works, unnecessary lights, clothes you hardly wear, etc.)

I think you’ll find that List 2 is huge. Next: put as much of the unneeded stuff in a garage or rental storage unit. This will be hard work, it will demonstrates and represent to you the labor it took to create the object and for you to bring it into your home. It will also be a deterrent of sorts when it’s time to move it all back in. Once all of the items are in the garage or storage unit, take an assessment of how much it all costs and the materials they are made from: they will be made from plastics and petroleums. People suffered to produce these things. Realize too that you did not “create” a job by buying these useless products, because for the company to have natural materials to build the product they had to deforest land, strip mine land, pollute waterways and air of someone’s little portion of land, and odds are it wasn’t yours. So for every “job” we “create” we are taking something away as well, something a lot more precious than capital.

Now, I would tell you to keep a journal of how you feel over the next two weeks, without all your uneeded stuff. Keep an exact list of what you miss, when you miss it, when you don’t miss it and why you miss it. Is there anything on List 2 that you DON’T miss?

In two weeks, when you move all the stuff back in, decide which things to dispose of properly because you don’t miss them.

It’s tough, it’s a pain, but it’s a first step to really realize, to feel, to move all the useless stuff you have simply for comfort.

I also think, as so many have who have done this, that you will realize that after a few days you stop missing those things you thought you HAD to have.

 

[phoage]

Originally Posted by zachforn

Solution #1: First step to do TODAY (this is what I tell clients): Walk through your home. Make two lists. List 1: write down things in your home that you need to live and make a living (food, frig, stove, computer, etc)

Things you need to live? Frig? Refrigeration is less than a century old. People survived for quite awhile without it. Admittedly it is convenient, but is that not what you are railing against, the suffering we cause for our convenience?

Stove; mine is gas but today, many are electric, both less than 100 years old. Of course man has always cooked food since before he was recognizably man. We could use wood but that causes deforestation and with our population, on a massive scale. By the way, have you ever cooked over a wood fire? I have, temperature control is problematic to say the least, but again, that is convenience.

I see you are still using your computer. Of course, you may need it for you job from home. You do work from home on your computer right? Otherwise, why would it be necessary? If so, what did you do before 1980? And how did the world manage to get along before that “necessity” was made common.

Now we get to food, which is of course, the only necessity on the items you listed. I get mine a a grocery store. Most comes packaged in reasonably convenient (there’s that word again) portions in printed paper or plastic containers. Do you grow your own, organically, with had tools that you manufactured yourself? What do you use the computer for?

The above is very sarcastic, and for that I apologize, a little bit. I wrote it to try to emphasize a point. Society has changed. There are abuses and crimes, and sins that we have the opportunity to commit now that were not available as recently as when I was in grade school. There are other, better opportunities also available for those who wish to take them.

In earlier times, there were abuses and crimes, and sins that are obsolete now. I do not know about anyone else, but for me, even if I were completely amoral, I would not have a slave when I can buy a machine that does what I want without having to have a whip cracked over it.Womens rights is a combination of cheap effective contraception and technology that makes upper body strength irrelevant in most jobs.

The point I am trying to make is that while your concern is admirable, the solution you offer is impractical to the point where you will be ignored. I am an amateur historian and am fairly aware of the technology that I use that is unnecessary to existence. As I said, my job did not exist 20 years ago. A project I have worked on over my adult life is learning to recreate primitive technology. I have made a bow , from a tree and gut (for the string). I am learning to knap flint. I can build a fire with nothing but wood and a cutting edge (I prefer steel). Do I want to live this way, NOT! Has it taught me the difference between necessity and luxury, maybe a little.

Lord! Give me the strength to correct the wrongs I can, the fortitude to bear those I cannot and the wisdom to tell the difference.

Patrick

 

[aspawloski4th]

Zach Basically if one were to do all you think we should do it would be a SIN. The Lord said be fruitfull and multiply. We would be sinning against the fruitfull part of that commandment because we would be so busy with doing all the stuff neccesary to survive to the next day we wouldn’t have time to be fruitful, in other words use the creative spirit to make things better around us. We would be busy trying to survive which would make us no better than or differnet from wild animals. I choose to participate in American society and do something meaningful with my life rather than just survive like a wild animal like you think we should do.

 

[PEPCIS]

It is all very well to point out problems like this but for the discussion to be something more than frivolous accusations or other hot air you must offer solutions. The only solution you have offered is a very general “withdrawal from modern (American) society”. I and others on this thread have pointed out numerous specific problems with this solution that make it either highly impractical or impossible, yet the only response you have is, “But that doesn’t take away from the fact that we are participating in a huge sinful problem.”

I wonder if Zach has an ulterior motive?

 

[Peter167]

Someone talked about the early Christians a few pages ago. I think more than the works of Thomas Aquinas we can learn from them.

Christians had to have known that their livings were built on the backs of slave labor. Around the time of Christ, in fact, it is estimated that there were more slaves in Rome than there were citizens.

Rome was a slave economy.

Yet, the Christians worked inside that society to its undoing. And that is the solution for today as well.

I think you might be right. I think it might be wrong. I think it also takes prudence and individual examination of conscience to determine what is right and wrong in this situation.

I also think, however that the focus should be on what we can DO, how we can ACT and not necessarily what we should avoid.

Voicing our opinions, not taking ourselves out of the process is the answer, and you can see it with the early Christians.

 

[Mythos]

It might be helpful for Zach to read Jimmy Akin’s blog on remote vs. proximate cooperation:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/07/rendering_unto_.html

 

[zachforn]

It might be helpful for Zach to read Jimmy Akin’s blog on remote vs. proximate cooperation:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/07/rendering_unto_.html

I’m not sure that is what is being discussed. Certainly if your tax dollars are being filtered through a third party (the government) that is committing sin then your responsibility may not be involved, as the article states, however if YOU (without the introduction of a third party) buy products directly from companies that support the suffering of others through their business practices then you are responsible. There is no third party forcing you to buy those products, you are deciding to buy them. You are not choosing to “opt-out” rather you are choosing to “opt-in.”

 

[zachforn]

Things you need to live? Frig? Refrigeration is less than a century old. People survived for quite awhile without it. Admittedly it is convenient, but is that not what you are railing against, the suffering we cause for our convenience?

Stove; mine is gas but today, many are electric, both less than 100 years old. Of course man has always cooked food since before he was recognizably man. We could use wood but that causes deforestation and with our population, on a massive scale. By the way, have you ever cooked over a wood fire? I have, temperature control is problematic to say the least, but again, that is convenience.

I see you are still using your computer. Of course, you may need it for you job from home. You do work from home on your computer right? Otherwise, why would it be necessary? If so, what did you do before 1980? And how did the world manage to get along before that “necessity” was made common.

Now we get to food, which is of course, the only necessity on the items you listed. I get mine a a grocery store. Most comes packaged in reasonably convenient (there’s that word again) portions in printed paper or plastic containers. Do you grow your own, organically, with had tools that you manufactured yourself? What do you use the computer for?

The above is very sarcastic, and for that I apologize, a little bit. I wrote it to try to emphasize a point. Society has changed. There are abuses and crimes, and sins that we have the opportunity to commit now that were not available as recently as when I was in grade school. There are other, better opportunities also available for those who wish to take them.

In earlier times, there were abuses and crimes, and sins that are obsolete now. I do not know about anyone else, but for me, even if I were completely amoral, I would not have a slave when I can buy a machine that does what I want without having to have a whip cracked over it.Womens rights is a combination of cheap effective contraception and technology that makes upper body strength irrelevant in most jobs.

The point I am trying to make is that while your concern is admirable, the solution you offer is impractical to the point where you will be ignored. I am an amateur historian and am fairly aware of the technology that I use that is unnecessary to existence. As I said, my job did not exist 20 years ago. A project I have worked on over my adult life is learning to recreate primitive technology. I have made a bow , from a tree and gut (for the string). I am learning to knap flint. I can build a fire with nothing but wood and a cutting edge (I prefer steel). Do I want to live this way, NOT! Has it taught me the difference between necessity and luxury, maybe a little.

Lord! Give me the strength to correct the wrongs I can, the fortitude to bear those I cannot and the wisdom to tell the difference.

Patrick

I think you missed the point of the exercise I suggested.

 

[catharina]

My Question: Are all Catholics who decide to participate in Modern American Life committing a mortal sin, simply by choosing to participate?

We can be and we must be.

I’ll ever remember a blurb from Vatican radio in the 1990s:
the Holy Father REMINDING Catholics in the States that we MUST be both thankful
and devout since the USA was the only nation on earth promising and granting
FREEDOM OF RELIGION to its citizens.

A powerful reminder.