Can Catholics learn things from Protestants... things they need to learn?

[JohnnyBeth]

What do you mean Catholics never read the Bible?

He meant most Catholics; not all Catholics. Usually the ones that are Protestant converts; like yourself have a tendency to read the Bible more. There is no incentive to read, much less study the Bible if you are Catholic, you will be told what it means by someone smarter than you anyway. I’m not making this up I have had Catholics tell me this as a reason for not reading much. Most have very fancy and expensive Bibles set out as a nice display and not wear; in fact if you touch it, they might break your hand (now I’m making it up…LOL) It doesn’t matter how many or necessarily how often one reads the Bible; what counts is has it impacted your life unto salvation?

 

[CWBetts]

If that were true we would all be holding hands looking to bless the JW’s and Mormons; so quit kidding yourself. Unless you want to prove me wrong, the easy way is tell us the way of salvation; pretend I just heard of a person named Jesus.

I hate to break it to you, but salvation in the way you probably envision it does not exist. There is no list of things you must to to grant you absolute entry into Heaven. I honestly wish it were that easy. “Do this, and then you are saved” kind of thing. Faith is a first step, but we can only take that first step after responding to graces given by God. So lets say Joe Heathen is prompted by the Holy Spirit. How this first prompting came is unimportant, but he decides to respond to the grace given him. What we can say to Mr. Heathen is a quote form a movie “Congratulations! You have taken your first step into a larger world.” Now we are going to assume in this example that Joe is above the age of reason. Which means that before he can be Baptized, he has to learn the faith. Joe goes through the Catechumenate (called RCIA in this day and age), where he learns the significance of the Sacraments, what the Bible says, the teachings of the church, et al. At some time he confesses his sins and gains absolution. After his time in the Catechumenate, the person responsible for his faith education declares to the congregation that he should be brought into the community. He makes a public profession of faith, is baptized, receives the Body and Blood of Christ, and is confirmed. He is a full member of the Church. If at that very instant he died, he would more than likely go to heaven (eventually). If not, he would spend the rest of his life growing in faith. As he grows, he recognizes more sins that need to be repented of. It is a continual process of growth. That is how one “gets saved”

 

[nsper7]

I’m sure many Catholics would answer Yes to this…

One thing i like about Protestants (some) is that they put a lot of emphasis on being born-again…

i do believe we have to go through a radical change like this in order to enter Heaven… It basically is what a person goes through in Purgatory if they have not gone throuhg it before then…

or what one goes through while at the Blessed Sacrament…

so what can we learn from Protestants?

What Catholics need to learn is their own faith and history. My understanding is that anything good in Protestantism is good because it somehow stems from Catholic Truth. Thus, Catholics should spend time learning the unwatered-down Catholic Truth without going to a third-party (Protestants in this case).

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Posted by CWBetts
You, yourself are ignorant of the faith. Just because YOU don’t read the Bible doesn’t mean NONE of us do! “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.”–St. Jerome (he was around more than 40 years ago!) I would recommend turning your computer off and reading the Scriptures.

Well, I learned more about the end times and more about the deeper meaning of scripture because of the word studies of many protestant pastors.

Sunday, July 31, 2005
Why Don’t Catholics Read The Bible

We as Catholics hear this question a good deal. We are also asked, why won’t the Church allow Catholics to read the Bible? Catholics do read the Bible, and are encouraged by the Church to do so. Many who accuse the Church of discouraging the faithful to read the Bible, both Old and New Testament, have no idea about the teachings and guidance of the Church in the reading of Holy Scripture. A great number of Popes and Saints have encouraged the reading of Holy Scripture by the faithful., and indeed, even today the Catechism of the Catholic Church encourages the reading of Holy Scripture by the faithful. Where the confusion lies in this idea of Catholics not reading the Bible, is that we as Catholics know that only the Holy Spirit through the Church is the sole interpreter of Holy Scripture for the guidance and inspiration of the faithful.
faithofthefathersapologetics.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-dont-catholics-read-bible.html
Notice the truth is buried near the back?

This one is more realistic:
Experts say Catholics still don’t read Bible regularly
By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – While it may be a best-seller, the Bible still is not regularly read, nor has it become an integral part of many Catholics’ lives, said a panel of biblical experts.
“Unfortunately, it must be said, there is still little Bible in the lives of the faithful,” said Italian Bishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Catholic Bible Federation.
Recent research conducted in Italy, Spain and France found that many Catholics consider the sacred Scriptures as something "reserved for the clergy" rather than as an accessible resource for them to draw upon for truth and inspiration in their own lives, he said. catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505102.htm

That is sad, but it is common-sense and no surprise when a central authority presumes the place of interpreter and removes any incentive, which is and always has been and will always be the sole work of the Holy Spirit. What happens when an attempt to arrogate the authority of God becomes common place?

Mt 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Rathering freightening to have the Lord say “Let them alone”.

**Isa 42:16 **“I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone.”

**1 Corinthians 2:12-16 **" Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ."

1 John 2 -"***the anointing ***which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and ***just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." ***

Another reason a true born-again person cannot lose their salvation; they have not only received an anointing, but are sealed till the day of redemption (glorification). Too few people buy into the truth.

If these two passages were all there was in the Bible, then it would be enough for the common person to see who has the work of leading individuals, the church, into the Truth.

While Catholics and Protestants both fall under the broad umbrella of Christianity, they practice their faith in different ways.

A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of regular churchgoers found that 25% of Evangelical Christians read the Bible on a daily basis along with 20% of other Protestants. Just seven percent (7%) of Catholics do the same. At the other extreme, ***44% of Catholics rarely or never read the Bible ***along with only seven percent (7%) of Evangelical Christians and 13% of other Protestants
rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/december_2008/catholics_protestants_practice_faith_in_different_ways

 

[Bill_Pick]

The “end times” you have learned about are an invention from the mid 19th century. The “rapture” was never taught in the early Church. You would be good to distance yourself from the heresies of protestantism

I just heard last night from a protestant preacher that God told him that the end is going to be in 5 years. I need to get out of here and make plans and I have 10 years left on my house,so Iam going to get out of 5years of house payments WOW Dont you just love listing to protestant preacher its like the bunny it just keep teaching. LOL

 

[CWBetts]

I just heard last night from a protestant preacher that God told him that the end is going to be in 5 years. I need to get out of here and make plans and I have 10 years left on my house,so Iam going to get out of 5years of house payments WOW Dont you just love listing to protestant preacher its like the bunny it just keep teaching. LOL

How many times have we heard these claims before?

 

[nsper7]

Sunday, July 31, 2005
Why Don’t Catholics Read The Bible

We as Catholics hear this question a good deal. We are also asked, why won’t the Church allow Catholics to read the Bible? Catholics do read the Bible, and are encouraged by the Church to do so. Many who accuse the Church of discouraging the faithful to read the Bible, both Old and New Testament, have no idea about the teachings and guidance of the Church in the reading of Holy Scripture. A great number of Popes and Saints have encouraged the reading of Holy Scripture by the faithful., and indeed, even today the Catechism of the Catholic Church encourages the reading of Holy Scripture by the faithful. Where the confusion lies in this idea of Catholics not reading the Bible, is that we as Catholics know that only the Holy Spirit through the Church is the sole interpreter of Holy Scripture for the guidance and inspiration of the faithful.
faithofthefathersapologetics.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-dont-catholics-read-bible.html
Notice the truth is buried near the back?

This one is more realistic:
Experts say Catholics still don’t read Bible regularly
By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – While it may be a best-seller, the Bible still is not regularly read, nor has it become an integral part of many Catholics’ lives, said a panel of biblical experts.
“Unfortunately, it must be said, there is still little Bible in the lives of the faithful,” said Italian Bishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Catholic Bible Federation.
Recent research conducted in Italy, Spain and France found that many Catholics consider the sacred Scriptures as something "reserved for the clergy" rather than as an accessible resource for them to draw upon for truth and inspiration in their own lives, he said. catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505102.htm

That is sad, but it is common-sense and no surprise when a central authority presumes the place of interpreter and removes any incentive, which is and always has been and will always be the sole work of the Holy Spirit. What happens when an attempt to arrogate the authority of God becomes common place?

Mt 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Rathering freightening to have the Lord say “Let them alone”.

**Isa 42:16 **“I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone.”

**1 Corinthians 2:12-16 **" Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ."

1 John 2 -"***the anointing ***which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and ***just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." ***

Another reason a true born-again person cannot lose their salvation; they have not only received an anointing, but are sealed till the day of redemption (glorification). Too few people buy into the truth.

If these two passages were all there was in the Bible, then it would be enough for the common person to see who has the work of leading individuals, the church, into the Truth.

While Catholics and Protestants both fall under the broad umbrella of Christianity, they practice their faith in different ways.

A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of regular churchgoers found that 25% of Evangelical Christians read the Bible on a daily basis along with 20% of other Protestants. Just seven percent (7%) of Catholics do the same. At the other extreme, ***44% of Catholics rarely or never read the Bible ***along with only seven percent (7%) of Evangelical Christians and 13% of other Protestants
rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/december_2008/catholics_protestants_practice_faith_in_different_ways

You want to link to news articles, fine, but who cares what your interpretation of Scripture is? You can give your opinion until your blue in the face, but face it (no pun intended), you have no authority to interpret Scriptures. As a Catholic, I accept the authority of the Church and if you actually read Scripture without some junk Protestant Evangelical trope, you’d see it as well (for example, Scripture acknowledges that the Church is the pillar and foundation of True and we see Christ giving great authority to His Apostles and His Church, including the authority to forgive/retain sins and to manage itself and set its own disciplines *). So why don’t you lay off with your overly simplistic Evangelical world-view? Maybe study a little bit of history and realize that this Evangelical Fundamentalism can only be traced back to the late 19th Century and Protestant theology can only be traced back to Martin Luther.

EDIT: And I still go back to original statement: anything, whether in theology or practice, that is good in Protestant is truly Catholic in nature.*

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I hate to break it to you, but salvation in the way you probably envision it does not exist. There is no list of things you must to to grant you absolute entry into Heaven. I honestly wish it were that easy. “Do this, and then you are saved” kind of thing. Faith is a first step, but we can only take that first step after responding to graces given by God. So lets say Joe Heathen is prompted by the Holy Spirit. How this first prompting came is unimportant, but he decides to respond to the grace given him. What we can say to Mr. Heathen is a quote form a movie “Congratulations! You have taken your first step into a larger world.” Now we are going to assume in this example that Joe is above the age of reason. Which means that before he can be Baptized, he has to learn the faith. Joe goes through the Catechumenate (called RCIA in this day and age), where he learns the significance of the Sacraments, what the Bible says, the teachings of the church, et al. At some time he confesses his sins and gains absolution. After his time in the Catechumenate, the person responsible for his faith education declares to the congregation that he should be brought into the community. He makes a public profession of faith, is baptized, receives the Body and Blood of Christ, and is confirmed. He is a full member of the Church. If at that very instant he died, he would more than likely go to heaven (eventually). If not, he would spend the rest of his life growing in faith. As he grows, he recognizes more sins that need to be repented of. It is a continual process of growth. That is how one “gets saved”

Now lets see what God says, He always says it better, then you decide if God uses your works justification/salvation formula noted above; the choice is always yours:

Romans 3 - 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For ***we maintain that a man is justified by faith ***apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4 - (Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament-God always has and will save the lost the same way)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God*.{but before MEN-mine for emphasis} *3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ***CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” ***4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN ***WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” ***

Notice how Paul picks up on the argument he made from chapter 3, then used Abraham and David as examples of justification by “faith”. Romans 3 is where Luther added the word “alone”, which he should not have done, but nonetheless the accusations against him are wrong because he did not change the meaning; he added emphasis to the truth…still a dangerous thing to do unless it is just to make a point, but not in somethimg distributed in the form of a Bible.

Hear is how the apostles were saved; notice no water baptism needed in any of this because it is not.

**Acts 10:44-48 ** 44 While ***Peter was still speaking ***these words, the ***Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening ***to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water ***for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} ***can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. …"

Notice the order, listen, hear or believe, then receive the Holy Spirit, then water baptised (Peter adds at the end "just as “we” did)

 

[CWBetts]

Where did I say that works were needed apart from faith? Oh wait that’s right, I didn’t. Our participation in the Sacraments are not human works. They are God’s works. We aren’t trying to “earn” our way into heaven. That is thoroughly impossible. We are allowing God to do works through us. Yes I said “allow”. God can use anyone who makes themselves available to be used. Saying a prayer is no “Get out of Hell free card”. True faith is demonstrative. Without works, there is no faith.

 

[nsper7]

Now lets see what God says, He always says it better, then you decide if God uses your works justification/salvation formula noted above; the choice is always yours:

Romans 3 - 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For ***we maintain that a man is justified by faith ***apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4 - (Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament-God always has and will save the lost the same way)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God*.{but before MEN-mine for emphasis} *3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ***CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” ***4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN ***WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” ***

Notice how Paul picks up on the argument he made from chapter 3, then used Abraham and David as examples of justification by “faith”. Romans 3 is where Luther added the word “alone”, which he should not have done, but nonetheless the accusations against him are wrong because he did not change the meaning; he added emphasis to the truth…still a dangerous thing to do unless it is just to make a point, but not in somethimg distributed in the form of a Bible.

Hear is how the apostles were saved; notice no water baptism needed in any of this because it is not.

**Acts 10:44-48 ** 44 While ***Peter was still speaking ***these words, the ***Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening ***to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water ***for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} ***can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. …"

Notice the order, listen, hear or believe, then receive the Holy Spirit, then water baptised (Peter adds at the end "just as “we” did)

Oh please. What I’d like to tell you would probably get me in trouble with the Moderators, so I’ll just leave at this: who cares what you think? You have no authority to interpret Scripture. You didn’t write it, you didn’t canonize it. It was the Church that canonized and existed before Scripture was written.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Sorry about the repetition-part of the original post was cut off at the very end.

I hate to break it to you, but salvation in the way you probably envision it does not exist. There is no list of things you must to to grant you absolute entry into Heaven. I honestly wish it were that easy. “Do this, and then you are saved” kind of thing. Faith is a first step, but we can only take that first step after responding to graces given by God. So lets say Joe Heathen is prompted by the Holy Spirit. How this first prompting came is unimportant, but he decides to respond to the grace given him. What we can say to Mr. Heathen is a quote form a movie “Congratulations! You have taken your first step into a larger world.” Now we are going to assume in this example that Joe is above the age of reason. Which means that before he can be Baptized, he has to learn the faith. Joe goes through the Catechumenate (called RCIA in this day and age), where he learns the significance of the Sacraments, what the Bible says, the teachings of the church, et al. At some time he confesses his sins and gains absolution. After his time in the Catechumenate, the person responsible for his faith education declares to the congregation that he should be brought into the community. He makes a public profession of faith, is baptized, receives the Body and Blood of Christ, and is confirmed. He is a full member of the Church. If at that very instant he died, he would more than likely go to heaven (eventually). If not, he would spend the rest of his life growing in faith. As he grows, he recognizes more sins that need to be repented of. It is a continual process of growth. That is how one “gets saved”

Now lets see what God says, He always says it better, then you decide if God uses your works justification/salvation formula noted above; the choice is always yours:

Romans 3 - 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For ***we maintain that a man is justified by faith ***apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4 - (Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament-God always has and will save the lost the same way)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God*.{but before MEN-mine for emphasis} *3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ***CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” ***4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN ***WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” ***

Notice how Paul picks up on the argument he made from chapter 3, then used Abraham and David as examples of justification by “faith”. Romans 3 is where Luther added the word “alone”, which he should not have done, but nonetheless the accusations against him are wrong because he did not change the meaning; he added emphasis to the truth…still a dangerous thing to do unless it is just to make a point, but not in somethimg distributed in the form of a Bible.

Hear is how the apostles were saved; notice no water baptism needed in any of this because it is not. Does this resemble anything like what you described?

 

[nsper7]

Notice how Paul picks up on the argument he made from chapter 3, then used Abraham and David as examples of justification by “faith”. Romans 3 is where Luther added the word “alone”, which he should not have done, but nonetheless the accusations against him are wrong because he did not change the meaning; he added emphasis to the truth…still a dangerous thing to do unless it is just to make a point, but not in somethimg distributed in the form of a Bible.

Hear is how the apostles were saved; notice no water baptism needed in any of this because it is not. Does this resemble anything like what you described?

Blah-blah-blah. Why are you making all these arguments here? Do you really think you are going to convince Catholics to abandon the True Church, a Church which we can trace back to the Apostle, in favor of manmade Protestant junk theology that can, at most, be traced back to Luther?

 

[CWBetts]

Now lets see what God says, He always says it better, then you decide if God uses your works justification/salvation formula noted above; the choice is always yours:

Romans 3 - 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For ***we maintain that a man is justified by faith ***apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4 - (Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament-God always has and will save the lost the same way)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God*.{but before MEN-mine for emphasis} *3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ***CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” ***4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN ***WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” ***

Notice how Paul picks up on the argument he made from chapter 3, then used Abraham and David as examples of justification by “faith”. Romans 3 is where Luther added the word “alone”, which he should not have done, but nonetheless the accusations against him are wrong because he did not change the meaning; he added emphasis to the truth…still a dangerous thing to do unless it is just to make a point, but not in somethimg distributed in the form of a Bible.

Hear is how the apostles were saved; notice no water baptism needed in any of this because it is not. Does this resemble anything like what you described?

Thats your interpretation. Mine is that when St. Paul speaks of “works of the law” it is in reference to dietary restrictions, sacrifices, ritual purification, etc. He is not speaking of obedience to the moral law. If if you say obedience is irrelevant, I know someone who might disagree…His name is Jesus. “If you love me, keep my commandments” When he taught us to pray, we are instructed to pray for the ability to do God’s will. Thats what the whole “thy will be done” means. It is not meant to suggest that any mere mortal can truly thwart God’s will. The key to salvation is obedience. Again, saying a prayer is not like buying a plane ticket. True salvation requires a true change in heart. Not just acting differently, but becoming a different person.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

You want to link to news articles, fine, but who cares what your interpretation of Scripture is? You can give your opinion until your blue in the face, but face it (no pun intended), you have no authority to interpret Scriptures. As a Catholic, I accept the authority of the Church and if you actually read Scripture without some junk Protestant Evangelical trope, you’d see it as well (for example, Scripture acknowledges that the Church is the pillar and foundation of True and we see Christ giving great authority to His Apostles and His Church, including the authority to forgive/retain sins and to manage itself and set its own disciplines *). So why don’t you lay off with your overly simplistic Evangelical world-view? Maybe study a little bit of history and realize that this Evangelical Fundamentalism can only be traced back to the late 19th Century and Protestant theology can only be traced back to Martin Luther.

EDIT: And I still go back to original statement: anything, whether in theology or practice, that is good in Protestant is truly Catholic in nature.*

LOL…
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

You lack of knowledge of Scripture shines brightly into the darkness of darkness. The church is clearly defined by God; does not remotely resemble what you describe as a church, but as noted above as to what God says about His word is so true.

The church is not the “foundation” of the truth as you suppose because that is not what scripture says; but why would you bother knowing what God has said; what would be the value?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Where did I say that works were needed apart from faith? Oh wait that’s right, I didn’t. Our participation in the Sacraments are not human works. They are God’s works. We aren’t trying to “earn” our way into heaven. That is thoroughly impossible. We are allowing God to do works through us. Yes I said “allow”. God can use anyone who makes themselves available to be used. Saying a prayer is no “Get out of Hell free card”. True faith is demonstrative. Without works, there is no faith.

Can you be saved apart from the sacraments? If so how? If not why?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Oh please. What I’d like to tell you would probably get me in trouble with the Moderators, so I’ll just leave at this: who cares what you think? You have no authority to interpret Scripture. You didn’t write it, you didn’t canonize it. It was the Church that canonized and existed before Scripture was written.

Is Jesus the living Word? Is the Bible the Word of God? A simple yes or no will suffice on both questions…thank you.
JB

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Blah-blah-blah. Why are you making all these arguments here? Do you really think you are going to convince Catholics to abandon the True Church, a Church which we can trace back to the Apostle, in favor of manmade Protestant junk theology that can, at most, be traced back to Luther?

See the topic of the thread; you obviously know it all and what God has said makes no difference to you; unless you change you will not see heaven and you can put that in the bank.
JB

 

[CWBetts]

LOL…
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

You lack of knowledge of Scripture shines brightly into the darkness of darkness. The church is clearly defined by God; does not remotely resemble what you describe as a church, but as noted above as to what God says about His word is so true.

The church is not the “foundation” of the truth as you suppose because that is not what scripture says; but why would you bother knowing what God has said; what would be the value?

Is that talking about the Bible…or is it talking about the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ the God-Man? It is talking about Jesus, not the printed Word. How do we know? Next verse down:
And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
“and before him” not “it”, “him”. Oh wait theres more! In verse 14 inspired author is talking about the High Priest! We know that is Jesus. You have misidentified the use of “word” to simply be referring to a book, when in fact, it is Jesus. You really need to check into context. It can help your interpretation a great deal.

 

[elgar]

Knowledge of the Bible

Zeal for missions and outreach

I also think one needs to be careful not to broad-brush this Catholic versus Protestant thing. There are just too many variations of both groups when it comes to the structure and actual practice of the two groups.

On a lighter note, as a Protestant with very Catholic sensibilites, this is my list of things Catholics could learn from Protestants. Keep in mind some are tongue-in-cheek, others are not.

How to sing well without some fat song leader screeching into the mike.

Strong singable hymnody. Hymnals, NO nasty missalettes.

Good organ playing.

Good Choral music.

Interesting and engaging sermons that are biblically based.

Not only talking about Evangelizing, but actually doing it.

Bible study on Sunday mornings and during the week.

Again, a lot of generalizing and hand picking the “best of” which isn’t necessarily the norm. I’m also aware there are a few RC Churches that actually do most or all of the above.

 

[nsper7]

Can you be saved apart from the sacraments?

I will quote from the Catechism of St. Pius X, published ca. 1880.
Catechism of St. Pius X:

16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

**17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? **
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.