Can Catholics learn things from Protestants... things they need to learn?

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Yes I have learned things from Protestants and I am not ashamed to admit it. I owe it to a Protestant who, when I was considering converting to the Catholic faith, challenged my potential conversion which brought me here which in turn opened me up to all kinds of great Catholic authors, historians and theologians. My faith in Christ would not be where it is today, without, in large part, to this Protestant’s constant attacks on the Catholic faith. I make sure to thank him every time I see him 😉

Also C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite authors and who could not learn something from that great mind 🤷

God bless
 

Why so much denial; are you that embarrassed of your faith? You are doing something, we will call it works, that imparts some type of grace, where if you did not do it you would not receive that grace, which makes grace no longer grace as it is written.
you totally do NOT understand… participating in sacraments is not works per se… and it might be noted that even getting out of bed in the morning can constitute a work… The Sacraments have nothing r eally to do with works… as poster said (well said, by the way)… God is doing something … we just receive it…
The process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism (WORK-mine)of water, inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God. The same process (WORK-mine) of justification is repeated in those who by mortal sin have lost their baptismal innocence; with this modification, however, that the Sacrament of Penance replaces baptism.
you just don’t get it and you never will until and unless you become Cahtolic… as i have said on CAF before… You really don’t know Catholicism until you ARE Catholic… and --not to sound arrogant, just speaking truth- - baptized cradle Catholics are somewaht more Catholic than converts… it just stands to reason that what you are all your life is What you are… more than if you just start being that when you are, say, 50 or whatever…
  • God does not distinquish sin;
if you mean that all sin is the same in God’s eyes… murder is no worse than swearing… You are WRONG Big time… and even if you could sensibly argue that God doesn’t see a difference… well, REALITY sees a difference… Would you rather have someone swear at you or murder you? Which sin do you think angers God the most??? do you think he has an equal level of anger for both sins??? well, if you do then maybe we worship a different God…
The problem is called double-speak; say one thing here and say another over here; even if they contradict each other; something God never does. For example, Yeah it is faith alone, but you must do water baptism…but, but, but, but…you see it all over Catholic writings. I am getting the urge to really to begin to dig into all of this writing and manifest all the double-speak and contradictions; no wonder you are so confused; who wouldn’t?
the poster is NOT confused… I say this because he is Catholic… There is no confusion in Catholicism, truly practiced… truly understood. And poster seems to understand *quite *well…

you are the one who is confused… about Catholicism… As stated, you don’t know it because you have never been Catholic. I have been non-Catholic (sort of ) and i have been Catholic…

I was outside the Church for YEARS… and in those yrs i went to protesant churches a LOT… (when i went to church at all… never was big on Church until i reverted to the RCC)…

so i can look at protestants and Catholics’ positions and see things that neither of them can see… not the ones who have never left the Church nor the ones who have never been Catholic…

***you have not been in both… ***
 
Again, you as my seperated bretherns are welcome to go to pugatory. I would rather dwell with God at my physical death and skip Catholic Purgatory. Paul revealed that absent from the body is present with the Lord. We biblical Christians get to skip pugatory!
just because you don’t believe in taxes doesn’t mean the government will exempt you from paying them…

(it would be nice but uh…)
 
Originally Posted by CWBetts
The Sacraments are not human works. Sacraments are signs instituted by Christ that confer Grace, not by our own merit, but by the mercy of God. The ordinary means of salvation requires partaking of the Sacraments, but let me explain why they are not human works. Simply put, we aren’t doing anything. We present ourselves, but God is doing the work.
  1. Baptism: God is washing away our sin. All we are doing is getting wet. I am not washing my own sin away. The minister is only acting as a “stand in” for Christ (In persona Christi).
  2. Confirmation: God is bestowing the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I am not ordering the Holy Spirit to come down.
  3. Holy Communion: The priest is not “taking Jesus out of Heaven,” but rather God is causing heaven and earth to intersect as a memorial to the crucifixion, which we participate in with the re-presenting of the sacrifice in a bloodless manner.
  4. Confession: God is forgiving our sin. The Priest is acting in persona Christi. All we are doing is repenting of our sin, as we are instructed to in the Scriptures.
  5. Anointing of the Sick: God heals us and prepares us to meet Him.
  6. Holy Orders: God provides the grace for Priests to live according to their vows.
  7. Holy Matrimony: God sanctifies the marital union.
Also keep in mind that 1, 2, 6, and 7 places an indelible mark on the soul. Once these Sacraments are received, they cannot in any way be “undone”. Also keep in mind that Catholics don’t talk about “doing” the Sacraments, but “receiving,” further showing that it is not what we do, but what God does.
 
just because you don’t believe in taxes doesn’t mean the government will exempt you from paying them…

(it would be nice but uh…)
My debt has been paid in full according to the Word of God. It is impossible for God to lie.

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. - Paul

There is no pugatory for biblical Christians.
 
You were doing great until the end, but we all can learn much from you. One can play church for many many years and still not understand the fullness of the gospel. Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for heart knowledge.

Why were you “kicked out of the church”? How do you reconcile salvation by works or legalism? Immaculate conception? Peterine Primacy/succession, papal office, magisterium, a levitial style priesthood et al? None is contained in Gods word.

You are definitely very interesting for sure. God bless you,

JB
Your questions are each a thread in themselves.

Basically, we were kicked out of the Evangelical Free Church that we had been faithfully involved with for seven years after a woman pastor (children’s pastor) became jealous of me and concocted a set of heinous accusations against me (e.g., she claimed that I was scaring the children–I guess that’s why my children’s choir grew from 24 to over 60 kids in three years, and why I and my two daughters were invited to work with Vacation Bible school every summer and why parents enthusiastically got involved with many of the ministries that I was involved with in that church).

My husband and I were asked to attend a tribunal, where a group of men that we had never met and who had never met us before tried us, condemned us, and asked us to leave the church. Then we were shunned by the Church.

A year later, that woman pastor was fired because she was caught in a lie.

Obviously this woman pastor had some problems, perhaps emotional or psychological, and she had learned to tell lies to protect herself or build herself up.

I found out a year later that the parents of the children went to the pastors to find out why I was no longer involved with the various ministries, and they were told that I had chosen to leave the church. In other words, they were lied to by the pastors.

The night the tribunal condemned us is the night that I finally admitted the utter fallacy, the outright evil, the Satanic masterpiece, of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. Forgive my language about this doctrine–I simply cannot find words that are expressive of the utter depravity of this twisted and horrible doctrine that has led so many people down the path to confusion and doubt.

The pastors and the men in the tribunal used the BIBLE to justify their cruel and capricious treatment of us and of our two daughters. After the trial, both of my daughters stopped attending church, claiming that if the church could kick US out (after all our years of active and loving service in many ministries), then the church would certainly kick out my daughters.

My older daughter, a graduate of Calvin College, became Catholic two year ago, after a prolonged period of study.

My younger daughter and her husband still do not attend church. She has major trust issues–the pastors and the men who sat on that tribunal at the Free church have a LOT to answer for at their judgement. I believe that the Blessed Mother pleads with her Son to have mercy on my daughter, for she was treated shamefully by men who claimed to be shepherds of Jesus.

That night, after the trial, I actually saw a vision, as real as anything, of the “doctrine” of sola Scriptura crumbling apart, shearing away like pieces of mica.

I didn’t read the Bible for almost a year after that night. I was afraid of it because I had experienced personally the evil that men can do by using the Bible alone as their authority. I didn’t want to become like them.

I’ll answer your questions in another post, due to word limits.
 
As for your questions–I don’t want to take the thread OT, but I can try to answer briefly.

Salvation by works or legalism? The Catholic Church does not teach this. The Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

However, many of the evangelical Protestant churches do teach salvation by works, because they teach that a person must ask Jesus to come into their heart to be their personal Savior. This is contrary to the Bible, which states in many places that we do not choose God, He chooses us.

One of the teachings in the evangelical Protestant churches is that works do not save, but that works are “evidence” of being saved. In the various churches that I was involved with, if a person who claimed to be saved did not manifest certain works, then they were often considered “not saved” because they lacked the evidence of works.

Many of these works were actually customs or traditions rather than true fruit of the Spirit. For example, in the churches that I attended, a “real” Christian had a daily Quiet Time or Daily Devotional, during which they studied their Bible and prayed. People who did not do this or at least try to do it were encouraged by the pastors to ask themselves whether they were “really saved.”

The Catholic Church teaches, from the Book of James, that works are the proof of faith. So IMO, the evangelical Protestants say that they don’t teach salvation by works, but they really do because it’s in the Bible and they teach the Bible. They just don’t admit it!

I believe that the teaching of Immaculate Conception is implied in the Bible in the Old Testament; e.g., see the teachings regarding the Ark of the Convenant. Also check out Psalm 45–a fascinating Psalm.

I would suggest that you get hold of some of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers (1st and 2nd Century)–this teaching was commonly accepted by all the early leaders of the Christian Church. There is an entire theology built around the New Eve, or Mary, that was taught by the Early Church Fathers and you really should read about it. I believe that these people who either knew Jesus, or knew the apostles, would not have fallen away from or developed heretical teachings about Mary within the first hundred or two-hundred years of the Church’s existence. I believe that the Holy Spirit has more power than that! Jesus did promise (John 16:13) that the Holy Spirit would guide Christians into all truth.

A good book that can help you to understand the Marian teachings is Hail Holy Queen by Dr. Scott Hahn. If you are truly interested in learning the answer to our question about Mary’s Immaculate Conception, please borrow this book and read it.

Also, Tim Staples (one of the CAF apologists) has a fantastic CD series that discusses the necessity of the Catholic Marian doctrines. Again, if you’re really interested in learning the answer, please try to get hold of this series.

I hope you’re really interested. Otherwise, why would you ask me? Don’t be afraid to look deeper into this. DON’T accept the silly apologetics of Protestants who, with a few sentences, demolish a very systematic theology that was developed in the first few centuries of the Christian Church and that was taught for 15 centuries by Christians. Go dig up that theology–don’t let the Protestant churches hide it from you!

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin (Reformed Church) accepted the teaching of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Petrine succession–it’s in the Bible. Matthew 16: 13-20. John 21: 15-17. Also, a careful, open-minded reading of the Gospels and the Book of Acts will demonstrate that Peter was definitely the leader of the disciples, and then the leader of the Church after Jesus ascended.

I’m not sure what you mean by Levitical priesthood. I assume that you mean that the priests offer blood sacrifices. This question is way too deep to answer briefly. You have to understand that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is both in human time and outside of human time. You also have to do some reading on the doctrine of the Lamb of God–to me, this is one of the most Biblical aspects of the Catholic Church! The Catholic Mass is straight out of the Book of Revelation–it’s happening in heaven constantly (outside of time), and the Mass is the way human beings “join in” with this heavenly sacrifice (outside of time). Again, I would suggest another Scott Hahn book, The Lamb’s Supper.
 
Why so much denial; are you that embarrassed of your faith? ?
if you can get THAT out of poster’s comments…

it is my opinion that you need more than just theological help…

not trying to be rude… just being honest
 
My debt has been paid in full according to the Word of God. It is impossible for God to lie.
.
like i said, just because you don’t believe in Purgatory doesn’t make it magically go away… because if it did, we Catholics would probably be the first to … uh… do the magic that is required to cause that to happen. And yet maybe not… i don’t see my own Purgation as being a bad thing… The souls in Purgatory, apparently, gather around the Blessed Sacrament… their precious Lord… If that’s Purgatory… I’ll take that any day… as opposed to living in this Christ-less world…
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. - Paul
.
this scripture disproves NOTHING.

God does this kind of thing for us… but guess what?? then we go and sin again…

and there is a psg in the bible about how when we get cleaned up and then go out and sin again, we are dirtier than we were in the beginning…

one demon goes out and finds 7 more demons more evil than himself…
 
Salvation by works or legalism? The Catholic Church does not teach this. The Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

However, many of the evangelical Protestant churches do teach salvation by works, because they teach that a person must ask Jesus to come into their heart to be their personal Savior. This is contrary to the Bible, which states in many places that we do not choose God, He chooses us.
.

very interesting to read your story… Thanks…

Maybe you should go into more detail and get it published… like maybe as one of the stories in Surprised by Truth… You may know there are 3 volumes or so of that… VERY interesting reading…

If some non-catholics would just read those books… well… i can’t see how they would stay protestant… (oh oh… i just blew it…) 😃

or anotoher way poster could begin to appreciate Catholicism …

he could become Evangelical Free… 😃
 
like i said, just because you don’t believe in Purgatory doesn’t make it magically go away… because if it did, we Catholics would probably be the first to … uh… do the magic that is required to cause that to happen. And yet maybe not… i don’t see my own Purgation as being a bad thing… The souls in Purgatory, apparently, gather around the Blessed Sacrament… their precious Lord… If that’s Purgatory… I’ll take that any day… as opposed to living in this Christ-less world…

this scripture disproves NOTHING.

God does this kind of thing for us… but guess what?? then we go and sin again…

and there is a psg in the bible about how when we get cleaned up and then go out and sin again, we are dirtier than we were in the beginning…

one demon goes out and finds 7 more demons more evil than himself…
I don’t mind if Catholics are going to Pugatory. One day, you will really know if the doctrine of purgatory is really true. It is such a minor issue to debate and divide over. We have much larger issues to discuss such as the doctrine of justification. 🙂 It is the work of the Holy Spirit to conform us into the image of Christ.

Romans 12

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
 
My debt has been paid in full according to the Word of God. It is impossible for God to lie.

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. - Paul

There is no pugatory for biblical Christians.
Purgatory isn’t about paying the sin debt. Everyone in Purgatory eventually goes to Heaven. It is about cleansing and purification
 
Purgatory isn’t about paying the sin debt. Everyone in Purgatory eventually goes to Heaven. It is about cleansing and purification
Thanks for pointing that out. There is a difference. Do baptized infants who die skip pugatory. What happens to unbaptized infants who die?
 
In context? Sorry, wrong answer. I pointed out one of your misuses (in Hebrews) to show that the “word of God,” taken in context, is a reference to Jesus, and not the written word. You never responded to that post though. I wonder why?
Actually; it is you that was out of context; I just did not address you error. If you care to present it again; I will be happy to show you why the context I stated is correct and your assumption is not.

A side note; I have been wrong and will be wrong again; many times a typing error and once in a while a theological error; but those mistakes are the learning oppotunities and I will be the first to admit when I am wrong and rejoice in further understanding as a result.
 
If only Scripture is authoritative, then how do I know your interpretation is correct? And you definitely have an interpretation as do all the myriad of Protestant denominations.
That is where the gross error and assumption is made and causes most errors. God is the only authority; which is why no one can understand the Scripture without the resident truth teacher, which is the Holy Spirit; this is why most religious people, whether Catholic or Protestant will be in hell; they never accept nor understand God and His ways.

Voltaire said (paraphrased) “God made man in His image and man returned the favor and man made God in his image and called it religion.” There is so much truth in that and it is heart wrenching. :crying:

To answer your question; you cannot know if I am interpreting or anyone else is, including your own church, unless you have the Holy Spirit leading, teaching and guiding you into His Truth; just as the Bible teaches. Mans teaching is we know the way better than God; just follow us and you will be okay-it is the biggest lie from the devil-look what happened to Adam and Eve.
 
Purgatory is in the Scriptures. Don’t you find it funny, that at the end we will be judged by our works? Anything not done for God will be consumed by fire…interesting
For the believer to rewards and to the unbeliever a judgment unto hell. The fire you refer to is God making the determination , in reference to a believer, as to the works done during the santification process were done for His glory or out of human self-interest. His glory is represented by the gold and silver and if you look through scripture you using those as search terms you might have a better understanding. The hay and stubble are the self righteous wroks done in the name of God, something all believers will be guilty of because we are still in the flesh.

Hopefully that clarifies things for you a little and helps rest the notion of a purgatory.
 
That is where the gross error and assumption is made and causes most errors. God is the only authority; which is why no one can understand the Scripture without the resident truth teacher, which is the Holy Spirit; this is why most religious people, whether Catholic or Protestant will be in hell; they never accept nor understand God and His ways.
Well, you’d better hope you’re right then punk, because I won’t. If you are truly going to tell me that out of all the different Protestants who all claim to interpret Scripture, that you alone are right, then you’re either a fool or a nut or a bit of both. You can’t prove to me from Scripture that you’re correct, even against your fellow Sola Scriptura Protestants so why don’t you just out of here?
I’m sure, no worries, only joy! 🙂
Surety and correctness are two different issues altogether. The lunatic can be quite sure he is correct and joyous as he slings the feces around. And, quite frankly, that is exactly what you’re doing on the theological level.
 
So who anointed you a prophet to tell anyone who disagrees with your theology (such as it is) that they are doomed to hell? I think you have proven my point about the arrogance of Evangelical Protestants.
This is not a game of who wins and who looses; reject what God has said and you will be in hell; accept what He has said and show it by living it out and you will be in heaven. You have rejected the Word at this point in your lfe; but as long as you are alive in the flesh there is that eternal Hope, but you will not find it in religion as you appear to have sought all your life.
 
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