Can Catholics 'opt out' of an afterlife?

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I still find new things to discover on Earth. Yesterday I watched documentary about feral cats and how they teach their kittens to survive. Then I found a new kind of pear, which is quite large and bitter tasting. I’m wondering if it need to be cooked before eating.

Some of the posts here remind me of the saying:
“In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king”

It seems people don’t seem to appreciate just how amazing what they have here on Earth really is. They want more.

I would suggest that could be ungrateful, greedy and unnecessary.
When you were a child, you probably had a bunch of neat things to play with. But didn’t you get excited about Christmas (besides its true meaning :)). How about those new toys you were looking forward to? I suppose you could call it greed. But I call it joy, adventure, excitement. . . accepting what God has planned for us.
 
The whole notion that life has no meaning it this life is all we have just raises the issue of the meaning of the afterlife. Every description I’ve ever heard of what it’s supposed to be like sounds nice but also completely meaningless.
Is it meaningless to be reunited with those you love?
 
It seems people don’t seem to appreciate just how amazing what they have here on Earth really is. They want more.
You are assuming that if heaven is worth having it must be completely different from this life. Do you find nothing worthwhile? Do you prefer to disappear without a trace?
 
Is it meaningless to be reunited with those you love?
If I die a good Catholic, will I be reunited with my loved ones who reject Jesus?

Would it really be heaven if those we love aren’t there?
 
If I die a good Catholic, will I be reunited with my loved ones who reject Jesus?
If they reject Jesus they reject you because they have chosen to live utterly for themselves.
Would it really be heaven if those we love aren’t there?
Would you want to be with those who couldn’t care less where you are or what happens to you? It happens to many parents in this life let alone the next…
 
If they reject Jesus they reject you because they have chosen to live utterly for themselves.
I reject the idea that Jesus is my personal savior, but I don’t choose to live utterly for myself.
Would you want to be with those who couldn’t care less where you are or what happens to you? It happens to many parents in this life let alone the next…
But that is very sad, isn’t? How could Heaven be such a sad place where parents are rejected by their children?

How could it really be heaven if everyone we care about will not be there with us?

My mother-in-law is terrified that her son will not be with her in Heaven because he does not believe in God. Is her fear justified? Could she end up in heaven without her son? If so, will it really be heaven for her?
 
My mother-in-law is terrified that her son will not be with her in Heaven because he does not believe in God. Is her fear justified? Could she end up in heaven without her son? If so, will it really be heaven for her?
She will find so much more to rejoice in! And the reasons for everything will be made clear to her, and she will be able to accept them. She will still be able to love her son, of course, no matter what happens to him. 🙂
 
She will find so much more to rejoice in! And the reasons for everything will be made clear to her, and she will be able to accept them. She will still be able to love her son, of course, no matter what happens to him. 🙂
It won’t make her even a little sad that her son is burning in hell for all eternity?
 
It won’t make her even a little sad that her son is burning in hell for all eternity?
This is not something that we can really understand from here, but we will understand it when the time comes.
 
This is not something that we can really understand from here, but we will understand it when the time comes.
How do you know that this is something we can’t understand from here?

The problem remains for now anyway: should she or should she not be terrified about her unbelieving son someday being condemned to hellfire and damnation?
 
This may seem a strange question.

For the last 15 or 20 years I have not wanted an afterlife. After I die I would like there to be non-existence. The last thing I want is there to be any form of afterlife, regardless of the form it takes.
I am happy enough with the life that God has given me. However, it is enough - I don’t want anything else.
The Catholic faith seems to heavily promote an afterlife. I do not want a Catholic funeral, or any funeral where the emphasis is on life after death. Would it be ‘safer’ just not to be a Catholic, or can I opt out of the afterlife part?
It is wonderful to be satisfied with what one has, and appreciate it, if that is indeed what is going on with you and you are “telling all.” On the other hand, we hide much from ourselves that is not available to our reckoning without serious work.

In any case, neither you nor the Church has anything to say about an alleged “afterlife.” The Church’s model of "life after ‘death’ " is fom an incomplete model of understanding regarding human awareness and the Consciousness it is dependent on. As wonderful as religion might be, or not, it is only part of the story, and the superficial part at that, despite claims about covering the whole dynamic. Jesus might have, the Church does not.

As for “afterlife” there is none. There is none because there is no “beforelife” and life as we experience it itself is woefully misunderstood. Why do you think there are so many “ways” and they all claim to be “right?” Fact is, there is only LIFE. It has no inherent morality or or requirement, save that the forms of life have experience. And those experiences have consequences. Exact consequences. There is no need for a “judge” to evaluate your life; you will eventually discover that you will to a supremely exact job of that for yourself, down to the last detail. You will have an absolutely dispassionate and loving editorial assessment of your experience as a human being.

In short, life isn’t about time, though experience is about timing. Life is about Substance, and that is not before, during, or after, it just IS. So even framing a question about and “afterlife,” though it might have temporary cultural significance, in Reality such has no bearing on the actual dynamic.

As for when it comes time to let go of your present form, the two questions you will ask yourself in excruciating detail are: !) “Did I Love?” and 2) “What did I learn?” Those two questions and their answers will determine the following course of your experience. You will have no no judgement about it, you will simply see the necessity of it and be as complicit to it as you now are to your breathing. It is just what it is.

You will, perhaps, notice that the two questions are exactly lined up with The Great Commandment, the four forms of The Golden Rule, and the ancient dictum to “Know Thyself.” Is that by chance? No. Religion, any religion, has always and everywhere stemmed from the innate, if misunderstood, Knowledge that Man is made in the Image and Likeness of God. The whole Point of being Human is to, over time, understand that astonishing Immensity and the implication inherent and hidden in that fact. It is the least explored and least taken advantage of idea in the whole inventory of human data. It is also one of the most resisted, because it requires a commitment to absolute responsibility in a way we don’t ordinarily think of.

That is why it is called by many names that tend to discourage people who would rather be religious or not religious, which amounts in fact to about the same thing, because both take place in and with the same ideas that actually prevent seeing past one’s own mind and its shenanigans. But in any case, you eventually will see for yourself, as some have and lived to tell tale tale, and as some know, whose efforts to inform the less experienced around them have been met with religionization and weakening. But that is how it works.

Like Dr. Arroway (great name!) in Contact, we can only make small moves for the most part. But there is that unaccounted for part that few talk about, or even few know about, especially competently. But it is how things work. The only thing that is absolutely certain is that despite any personal opinion we might have about it, we each are in the hands of Absolute Love. Innately you know this. You will not be deceived.
 
The problem remains for now anyway: should she or should she not be terrified about her unbelieving son someday being condemned to hellfire and damnation?
It is a perfectly rational fear, yes.

Although we can certainly hope for last-minute death-bed conversions, I’m not sure how common they actually are, in reality. There are also fewer and fewer people who return to their childhood faith in old age.
 
Leela, you’re one of my favorite non-Catholics on here. You composed the thread about separation between church and state - the “compromise” one - didn’t you? I loved that post. 🙂

Anyway:
I reject the idea that Jesus is my personal savior, but I don’t choose to live utterly for myself.
They’re not referring to an act of the mere intellect. Yes, in that narrower sense you reject Jesus as your personal Savior, and that doesn’t necessarily mean you live selfishly.

But it does mean that if someone truly rejects the living Word of God with all his or her heart.

Not even you can say whether you reject Jesus in that sense, Leela.
But that is very sad, isn’t? How could Heaven be such a sad place where parents are rejected by their children? How could it really be heaven if everyone we care about will not be there with us?

My mother-in-law is terrified that her son will not be with her in Heaven because he does not believe in God. Is her fear justified? Could she end up in heaven without her son? If so, will it really be heaven for her?
We don’t know. Only imagination can even approximate an answer to this very good question, and I think C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce sheds some light on it.

But the short answer is that we don’t know.
It won’t make her even a little sad that her son is burning in hell for all eternity?
No, it won’t. I have no idea how that’s possible, but again The Great Divorce helps the human imagination approximate it metaphorically.

Heaven - being in the presence of the Beautific Vision - is a completely different realm of existence. That’s both why it’s possible that she won’t be sad even if her son is in hell, and why we can’t explain how.
How do you know that this is something we can’t understand from here?
I guess I don’t know for sure. I’m assuming it’s something we can’t understand it from here, because no one has ever been able to explain it to anyone’s satisfaction.
The problem remains for now anyway: should she or should she not be terrified about her unbelieving son someday being condemned to hellfire and damnation?
She should care about him, yes. And if she has reason to believe he’ll go to hell when he dies, then it does indeed follow that her fear is appropriate.

But if he does happen to go to hell, and if she does happen to go to heaven, then things are different…
 
I still find new things to discover on Earth. Yesterday I watched documentary about feral cats and how they teach their kittens to survive. Then I found a new kind of pear, which is quite large and bitter tasting. I’m wondering if it need to be cooked before eating.

Some of the posts here remind me of the saying:
“In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king”

It seems people don’t seem to appreciate just how amazing what they have here on Earth really is. They want more.

I would suggest that could be ungrateful, greedy and unnecessary.
Of course we want more! Earth, good as it is, is not even close to being the supreme good, and we were created by and for the supreme good. To understand this is not unrateful, greedy or unnecessary. On the contrary, it’s a great and holy thing, a desire implanted in us by God to draw us to Him.

Love for His creatures - the good of this earth - is a fine thing, but it’s a means to something else, and we can’t stop at it as if it is the end in itself. It is a vehicle through which we learn about Him with the end of loving Him in, of and for Himself alone.

It is only when this desire for God is perverted and becomes (as it does in some people) twisted into a desire for more and more material goods (wealth, power, fame, sex or whatnot) that people become ungrateful and greedy.

As St Augustine put it, ‘You have created us for Yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You’. That supreme rest will be in heaven, so we yearn towards it, and rightly so.

I am somewhat disturbed by the attitude of ‘this is good enough, don’t bother asking for anything more’. I can (just) imagine loving a person in that way, but not God.

God’s love for US is all-consuming - certainly it consumed all of Jesus, bodily if not spiritually. And our love for Him is designed to similarly be all-consuming. That’s why He talks of ‘hating’ mother, father etc etc. Of course this is hyperbole, there’s no term in Hebrew simply meaning ‘love less than God’ so ‘hate’ is used.
 
How do you know that this is something we can’t understand from here?

The problem remains for now anyway: should she or should she not be terrified about her unbelieving son someday being condemned to hellfire and damnation?
An answer, Leela, is in the framing of the question. It is framed in the assumption that the consequence of continued unbelief is hellfire. Her terror is rooted in giving credence to the faith hypothesis that the paradigm she accepts as her faith is true.

When we play Monopoly, or Clue, or Scrabble, we abide by their rules. And we have all seen gamers get more or less emotionally involved in the stakes of the game. After all, the definition of “drama” is “what is at stake?” The higher the stakes, the higher the drama. For your Mother-in-law, who has bought into the “salvation” game, there can be no higher stake than her own “soul,” and as a Mother, the “soul” of her son. I put “soul” in quotes, because there is a whole range of meanings for that word, some incompatible.

So as far as her participation in the rules of that game, of course, she has no other emotional position to fall into than the one she holds, as her investment in the “rules” of that game are complete, and not likely to change. If there is any hope for relief in her context, it might come from the ideas of hope and trust congruent with her particular belief system. It is not likely that she will simply allow matters to go their course without any judgement or commentary, even if in a more reasonable approach she might go that way.

The one-off answer, the most unlikely one, is a paradigm shift on her part involving either one of the variables available to theists and atheists, or an actual breakthrough into a different perception of the very nature of her existence. Though these happen, they are pretty rare, despite much literature about them.

In the case of my own mother, who is similarly invested and has similar concerns about me, about the best tactic I have arrived at is “do no harm.” In other words, don’t argue with her, aggravate her in her faith, and avoid the subject, keeping to topics and activities that are friendly and neutral. I have had to overcome my own tendency, common among humans, to prove my rightness in matters relating to my position. I love her enough to do that, and suffer no loss if she has concern for me, other than occasional intellectual annoyance.

My guess, since you consistently post things that betray above average intelligence at least, is that you know all this, and more. But for what it’s worth, there it is.
 
Tuno - Life after death was probably not just made-up to explain the human mind. NDE’s which happen AFTER DEATH show this, and I read a recent study (thanks to Humble Catholic) that a completely neutral study pointed to dualism over materialism. Here it is, BTW:
Mind-Body Dualism - Is the Mind Purely a Function of the Brain? (From God and Science)
I’m not sure what prompted you to post this, Pieman. My stance has always been that materialism is the least likely hypothesis. Also, I’ve had a rather entertaining OBE, and a life changing NDE. It was a number of considerations surrounding those that eventually led me to understand that neither the dualism as claimed in in the interesting link you provided, nor materialism, nor theism as it is ordinarily understood account for the actual dynamics. It is far more interesting than that. I am sorry that I found it necessary to conduct my search outside the Church to discover that, but there is a big and egregious hole in Catholic doctrine surrounding all this, despite all the good intentions. It shares that hole with atheism, as well.
 
I’m not sure what prompted you to post this, Pieman. My stance has always been that materialism is the least likely hypothesis. Also, I’ve had a rather entertaining OBE, and a life changing NDE. It was a number of considerations surrounding those that eventually led me to understand that neither the dualism as claimed in in the interesting link you provided, nor materialism, nor theism as it is ordinarily understood account for the actual dynamics. It is far more interesting than that. I am sorry that I found it necessary to conduct my search outside the Church to discover that, but there is a big and egregious hole in Catholic doctrine surrounding all this, despite all the good intentions. It shares that hole with atheism, as well.
Looking back at your first post, I realized I misunderstood what you said. My apologies. :o
 
You are assuming that if heaven is worth having it must be completely different from this life. Do you find nothing worthwhile? Do you prefer to disappear without a trace?
Are you speaking to me?
 
If they reject Jesus they reject you because they have chosen to live utterly for themselves.

I reject the idea that Jesus is my personal savior, but I don’t choose to live utterly for myself.
Jesus told us we cannot love God unless we love our neighbour and inasmuch as we love others we love Him.
Would you want to be with those who couldn’t care less where you are or what happens to you? It happens to many parents in this life let alone the next…
But that is very sad, isn’t? How could Heaven be such a sad place where parents are rejected by their children?

Heaven is not sad because everything is seen in its proper context. God shares the anguish of His creatures and permits it because He knows it is inevitable. We cannot have everything for nothing. Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. To expect unalloyed bliss is unrealistic.

Jesus came to show us no misfortune we are compelled to endure or sacrifice we choose to make is wasted. Ultimately we receive exactly what we deserve - which justifies belief in karma and cosmic justice. Every virtue brings its reward and every vice its punishment as inexorably as the laws of nature. Nothing occurs by chance in the spiritual life.

Do you wish you or your family had never been born? Of course you don’t. You know the immense value of existence outweighs its limitations, frustrations and disappointments. Life is worthwhile in spite of its drawbacks. Others suffer far more than we do but they will be compensated in heaven. There is bound to be inequality and unfairness on earth because we cannot all be born with the same opportunities and some choose to live entirely for themselves. That is why joy in heaven is tinged with regret but it will not disturb our peace of mind because we know evil and suffering are the price of freedom. We also know that unless we are free we are not capable of love… and the peace and joy of divine love outlast everything else…
 
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