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freeRadical
Guest
How is the Republican Party consummate evil?I mean…the Republican Party pretty much is consummate evil. It’s just a question of whether abortion overrides that (which I agree with, to a degree) and whether we have to shut off our intelligence regarding pro-abortion politicians just because they have a R next to their name. That seems to be a Party-line thing, not a Catholic thing. I support true pro-life politicians, not ones who don’t care about it and use it as a political wedge.
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freeRadical
Guest
Congress doesn’t have the power to override the Fed. The Fed does what it wants and is not subject to Congressional authority.But Republicans in Congress have attempted to override that authority, and the President appoints the FR Chairman.
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freeRadical
Guest
How is the death penalty immoral? Does the Church teach this?Opposition to foreign aid (a direct human life issue), support for a very broad usage of the death penalty (a direct human life issue), budgetary policy, monetary policy, economic policy, opposition to AIDS funding in foreign countries (a direct human life issue), broad support for unjust wars, etc.
How is Republican budgetary policy, monetary policy, and economic policy immoral? Can you pleas give me some specific examples?
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
While I consider the Democratic Party to be beyond salvation for their role in the abortion holocaust and same sex causes, I will also maintain the the current Republican Party left me long ago for their stance on interventionist foreign policy and their support of the crony capitalism that dominates banking and big business today.
Hence I cannot in good conscience vote for either party as a general rule of thumb. I can only look at individual candidates. If no candidate on the ballot is pro-life, then I just won’t vote in that particular election.
Hence I cannot in good conscience vote for either party as a general rule of thumb. I can only look at individual candidates. If no candidate on the ballot is pro-life, then I just won’t vote in that particular election.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
I completely agree.So you would agree then, that there are some people who believe they have a properly formed conscience but do not?
And if that is true, then it is very possible that those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama and think they have a properly formed conscience do not.
Would you agree with that?
If you replace “those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama” with “many of those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama”, I agree.Ishii
I do believe that many do not even pay attention to the abortion issue or think it’s not a big deal, and thus do not even weigh this issue against other grave moral reasons to vote or not to vote for a party or candidate.
Conversely, I also believe that many who vote Republican do not have a properly formed conscience and do not necessarily vote Republican for the morally right reasons. I am not suggesting that this holds for the majority of CAF posters here who vote Republican.
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Milasol
Guest
While I don’t agree with your assertion that it is only the republicans who have a stance on interventionist foreign policy and or support crony capitalism. I believe if anything both parties are guilty of that and I don’t know which is worst. Democrats have most of the fortune 500 companies as their supporters, the entire “green” industry, the entire pharma industry, and then disguise that they are for the little man… And the current administration’s foreign policy is only of intervention. Changing regimes, sending arms, etc. For me, in fact, at least the other side had the decency to go overseas and call it that instead of using other’s armies weaponizing them and changing the other countries’ regimes under the guise of democracy. Some fraud voting process as it happened in Egypt, etc.While I consider the Democratic Party to be beyond salvation for their role in the abortion holocaust and same sex causes, I will also maintain the the current Republican Party left me long ago for their stance on interventionist foreign policy and their support of the crony capitalism that dominates banking and big business today.
Hence I cannot in good conscience vote for either party as a general rule of thumb. I can only look at individual candidates. If no candidate on the ballot is pro-life, then I just won’t vote in that particular election.
However, I think your position is far more genuine and honest than some who try to justify voting for a staunch pro-abortion, anti-family, anti-Christian party such as the democratic party. So I respect it very much, even though I don’t fully agree, the fact that you first and foremost stand up for what is morally right and humane is and should be the position of every Catholic. I wish more so-called Catholics who vote democrat would learn from you.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
You’re citing a truism. Many people vote without really knowing what they’re voting for or against. It’s a shame to the extent it’s true.I completely agree.
If you replace “those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama” with “many of those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama”, I agree.
I do believe that many do not even pay attention to the abortion issue or think it’s not a big deal, and thus do not even weigh this issue against other grave moral reasons to vote or not to vote for a party or candidate.
Conversely, I also believe that many who vote Republican do not have a properly formed conscience and do not necessarily vote Republican for the morally right reasons. I am not suggesting that this holds for the majority of CAF posters here who vote Republican.
That’s not to say it’s okay, and particularly not for Catholics who, unlike Protestants who are free to invent their own religion and mores individually, are morally obliged to know what the Church teaches and to apply it to their lives.
I don’t doubt some Catholics don’t know what the Church teaches regarding abortion, though one would almost have to try to not know to be in this category. Hard to really approve of this.
Most, I suspect, “invent their own religion” in effect, by simply not agreeing with the teachings of the Church. This is impossible to countenance or approve.
Some, I imagine, admit they’re sinning in supporting abortion, confess it and resolve to amend their ways. Sinners can always return to the fold, and I expect some do.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
First, the options are notSo now I have a dilemma. Perhaps you can help me. My Bishop, Most. Rev. Kevin Farrell expounded upon the USCCB voting guide because there was confusion. He, in conjunction with Bishop Vann, wrote the following:
prolifedallas.org/voting
My dilemma is that your opinion differs from the teaching of my Bishop. Please answer the following question:
Whose opinion / teaching / instruction should I believe to be true?:
A) Al Moritz’s
B) Bishops Farrell and Vann
I eagerly await your answer.
A) Al Moritz’s
B) Bishops Farrell and Vann
but
A) the USCCB’s
B) Bishops Farrell and Vann’s particular interpretations that go beyond the text proper of the USCCB guide
I follow in my conscience the USCCB guidelines, but the formation of my conscience and the prudential judgments that I make based on it are only mine and not someone else’s.
Second, let me ask you a counter-question: if the particular interpretations of Bishops Farrell and Vann are binding for every Catholic in the USA, then why are they not explicitly included in the USCCB guide?
Do you think the USCCB guide is less strict and defining in its formulations than these two Bishops just in order to confuse, given that the text allegedly indeed needs further clarification by particular Bishops? Or do you think it is because the USCCB has judged the formulations to be just right for the individual Catholic to form their conscience acordingly, and no further clarifications that define the issues in a more strict manner are deemed to be needed and wanted? I have no reason not to believe the latter.
That Bishop Farrrell’s interpretation may be binding for you because he is your Bishop is a different matter.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Indeed.You’re citing a truism. Many people vote without really knowing what they’re voting for or against. It’s a shame to the extent it’s true.
That’s not to say it’s okay, and particularly not for Catholics who, unlike Protestants who are free to invent their own religion and mores individually, are morally obliged to know what the Church teaches and to apply it to their lives.
I don’t doubt some Catholics don’t know what the Church teaches regarding abortion, though one would almost have to try to not know to be in this category. Hard to really approve of this.
Most, I suspect, “invent their own religion” in effect, by simply not agreeing with the teachings of the Church. This is impossible to countenance or approve.
Some, I imagine, admit they’re sinning in supporting abortion, confess it and resolve to amend their ways. Sinners can always return to the fold, and I expect some do.
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estesbob
Guest
This is the kind of mental gymnastics Archbishop Chaput refers to that leads Catholics to support evil.I mean…the Republican Party pretty much is consummate evil. It’s just a question of whether abortion overrides that (which I agree with, to a degree) and whether we have to shut off our intelligence regarding pro-abortion politicians just because they have a R next to their name. That seems to be a Party-line thing, not a Catholic thing. I support true pro-life politicians, not ones who don’t care about it and use it as a political wedge.
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estesbob
Guest
You have not posted a single cite to back up your flawed opinis on the Churchs teachings on either abortion or conscienceFirst, the options are not
A) Al Moritz’s
B) Bishops Farrell
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ishii
Guest
Thank you for this post milasol. All we can do is lay the facts out for all to see. What this thread shows is how blind to the truth people are. Whether it’s vincible or invincible I do not know. I don’t think there is much else we can do. You could have the devil run for president and some would vote for him if he had a D next to his name.You want to see something evil? Look at the party that has been promoting, financing, supporting the entire abortion industry. That, my friend, is the Democrat party.
To the extend some people would lie to themselves for justification to going against the most basic morality is outstanding. Unreal
You have avoided all the evidence presented to you regarding the immorality of the democratic party. you were also shown the diabolical platform of the democratic party
You have been shown how there are politicians in the republican side are FAR MORE pro-life and have a FAR MORE Pro-life voting record and you call it lip service.
You insist on denying the truth and keep calling it a lie.
At this point, only divine intercession can help you.
Pray for less pride, for wisdom, and for an end to abortion. Because surely democrats won’t do it. If anything they would increase it.
And that is the truth.
Democratic party is a conglomerate of demons pushing ALL of the immoral agendas.
They are the AUTHORS of it. They are the sponsors of those nefarious groups that push for the anti-family, pro-abortion agendas.
Ultimately what these people represent is the mentality that says “I will not serve.” For them politics trumps their faith. They’re blind allegiance to ideology makes them unable to see the truth. They have been presented with the facts but they continue to support evil. I agree divine assistance is the only help here.
Ishii
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Milasol
Guest
I totally agree. Sometimes I wish they stopped calling themselves Catholic. At least the protestants left the Church but some today stay inside and try to sabotage it from within.Thank you for this post milasol. All we can do is lay the facts out for all to see. What this thread shows is how blind to the truth people are. Whether it’s vincible or invincible I do not know. I don’t think there is much else we can do. You could have the devil run for president and some would vote for him if he had a D next to his name.
Ultimately what these people represent is the mentality that says “I will not serve.” For them politics trumps their faith. They’re blind allegiance to ideology makes them unable to see the truth. They have been presented with the facts but they continue to support evil. I agree divine assistance is the only help here.
Ishii
If one calls themselves something they better believe in ALL its teachings and not just some that suit them.
I don’t ever want to push people away but one either believes the Holy Spirit has been the guide of our Church for 2000 years or not. And if He has, then one must believe in ALL of it.
I personally believe that the Holy Spirit has been our guide all along. There is no way that our Church with the amounts of attacks it has had ALL throughout history from within and without could have sustained them or endured them. We’ve had bad Popes, bad clergy, yet the doctrine has stayed intact, untouched, pure. That is amazing. Only something divine could do that. So, if anything, these so-called Catholics should follow the teachings out of obedience and not pretend they are obedient with some bogus claim that what they support really is not going against Church teachings.
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Path_Finder
Guest
I’m not positive but I believe the brother/sister often talks about gays, same-sex couples, perhaps even transgendered persons. Well, that cause is one of Obama’s causes. I’m just adding this in. Not judging the motives of anyone.As has been shown to you repeatedly that assertion is utter nonsense Please read the previous posts.
You assertion that Republican Party also fails on your personal definition of “life issues” is also incorrect, as many others have patiently shown you. Way too many Catholics try to hide behind a Caricature of the Republican party as being consummate evil to try and rationalize their support of evil.
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punisherthunder
Guest
**Vote Democrat? Absolutely not.
As my parish priest told me, you must always vote against political supporters of abortion.**
As my parish priest told me, you must always vote against political supporters of abortion.**
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ishii
Guest
Among those who vote for Democrats/Obama: either their conscience (such as it is) allows them to do so - i.e. they don’t care about Church’s stance on this issue because they are not Catholic or Christian. Or they believe in women’s rights over human (unborn) rights for example.I completely agree.
If you replace “those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama” with “many of those who believe that it’s okay to vote for Democrats or Obama”, I agree.
I do believe that many do not even pay attention to the abortion issue or think it’s not a big deal, and thus do not even weigh this issue against other grave moral reasons to vote or not to vote for a party or candidate.
Conversely, I also believe that many who vote Republican do not have a properly formed conscience and do not necessarily vote Republican for the morally right reasons. I am not suggesting that this holds for the majority of CAF posters here who vote Republican.
-OR-
They are Catholics who*** think ***they have a well-formed conscience and vote for Obama - or they have convinced themselves in their mind that voting for Obama is morally permissible. This thread contains a lot of examples of that.
I agree with Milasol. Only divine assistance can help them, as manifestly logic and facts have not.
Ishii
J
Jeanne_S
Guest
This is a ridiculous assertion!Do you even know the definition of evil?It is the complete absence of any good.That would define abortion.The Democratic Party has pushed the envelope in defining a “woman’s right to choose”,to the extent that we are now seeing infanticide occurring in abortion clinics,women dying from botched abortions,a president who believes it is a punishment to have an unwanted baby…no,this is the consummate evil.Add to that the immoral and neferious actions of PP in encouraging our teens to engage in all manner of sexual practices.Help me and others’ to understand how any good intentions the Dems may have could possibly over ride the evil they so fiercely endorse.I mean…the Republican Party pretty much is consummate evil. It’s just a question of whether abortion overrides that (which I agree with, to a degree) and whether we have to shut off our intelligence regarding pro-abortion politicians just because they have a R next to their name. That seems to be a Party-line thing, not a Catholic thing. I support true pro-life politicians, not ones who don’t care about it and use it as a political wedge.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
The logic and facts are precisely what is at debate here, given the actual texts from the USCCB voting guide and the Pope Emeritus.I agree with Milasol. Only divine assistance can help them, as manifestly logic and facts have not.
Ishii
C
Crossbones
Guest
The attack on Iraq in 2003 sure seemed like an unjust war to me, especially given everything we learnt afterwards. Iraq was not a credible threat to the United States; they did not have weapons of mass destruction. Yes, Saddam Hussian was a bad person, but so is Kim Jong Il.And I think before anybody gets too righteous about “unjust wars”, one needs to look at what has happened when total opposition to U.S. intervention won the White House. Can anybody really say there was no moral purpose in deposing Saddam Hussein who was responsible for a million deaths and was more danger to the region and the world than ISIS, and none in keeping Iraq stable with our presence?
Iraq went from being ruled by a murderer who started two wars, to peace under U.S. intervention, to being ruled by murderers who have been at war ever since we left.
The Sunni leaders, the Kurds and the Shiites all asked us to stay and guarantee the peace. We didn’t, and now ISIS rules half of the country and half of Syria as well, and has turned Iraq into the battleground between Sunni extremists and Iran that anybody could have known would be the case if Obama won in 2008. He won, and that’s what the Middle East has now.
Furthermore, why should the property of American people be taken away from them to help half-way across the world? Why should the lives of soldiers who volunteered to protect America, not some other country be put at risk? The whole things seems to violate the principle of subsidiarity. The problem should have been dealt with on a local level.
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