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markomalley
Guest
What about somebody who believes that the federal government should do what has been delegated to it by the Constitution…and no more…unless additional responsibility / authority are delegated through the Constitutional Amendment process?
In other words, for me, I think it is immoral to vote for somebody who believes in the federal government usurping more power than has been explicitly delegated to it through the Constitutional process.
And, yes, I said “immoral”. (It violates the Catholic principle of “subsidiarity”)
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shockerfan
Guest
What about a Senate Majority leader who has over 350 bills passed by the House of Representatives sitting on his desk but won’t bring them up for a vote? (Reid, aka “The One Man Filibuster”)
What about a president who doesn’t just pick and choose what laws he will or won’t support, but also picks and chooses parts of laws he will or won’t support (Obama).
What about a Supreme Court justice who thinks international law is relevant to determining the constitutionality of an American law (Ginsburg).
It seems you just don’t like people whose view of government is different from yours. People overwhelming voted for a Republican majority in the House of Representatives in response to what they got with 2 years of an unchecked Democrat majority. They voted them in to stop the Obama agenda.
Mark121359
Well-known member
The term pro-choice has been adapted because it sounds a lot nicer than pro-abortion. “Pro” obviously means that you are in support of or in favor of something. Pro gay marriage, pro-gun, pro- life, pro-family, etc. When a person refers to themselves as pro-choice, what choice are they referring to?..Abortion…plain and simple! Now lately they’ve opted for the more encompassing “pro-women’s health…Do these feminists ever give up?How can you make the above statement without batting an eye? You do realize you said you’ve voted democrat since Nixon. Then I suspect you voted Obama…twice! He’s the most pro-death candidate in history!!!
Recently I read an article in which it mentions a poll which stated that half of all Catholics believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases. Reading all of the above comments, it’s easy for me at least to see why.
Peace, Mark
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sallybutler
Guest
I said anyone who wants to make government small enough it can be drowned. Perhaps my problem is that I associate being drowned with being dead. I associate being dead as not working at all.
My original point was that I will not vote for someone who does not want to govern, no matter what their stand on abortion is. If you want to make government small enough to drown, you don’t want small government, you want no government. Perhaps they are indulging in hyperbole, but I don’t want to take the chance they mean it.
I don’t expect my elected officials to do everything my way. I have not yet been made empress of the universe. I do however, expect them to work with each other, giving some, getting some. If they start off by saying they will not work with the other side, no matter what issues may come up, then I feel they are not interested in governing. And that goes for both sides of the aisle.
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Crossbones
Guest
What? They killed a child and the mother is the least culpable? You want to punish everyone but the mother? That makes no sense.
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MJE
Guest
Grover Norquist will kill the US gov’t or at least make an attempt @ it?
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Dawnia
Guest
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ishii
Guest
Sally : your argument is very silly. I am not anti-government, I am anti-big government. What is big government? Well let me help you: Big government spends trillions to solve the problem. But the problem gets worse. That is called the war on poverty since the 60s. That is just one example and there are others. We need government but it needs to follow the principle of subsidiarity. The Catholic principle of subsidiarity, that is. If you do not know what the principle of subsidiarity is I recommend that you look it up before posting again.
Ishii
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ishii
Guest
Stinkcat, you are refuting an argument which no one has made. Which is a bit strange don’t you think?
Ishii
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pnewton
Guest
If a bill was passed that made raping women legal (we do not want to put them in prison), could you also argue that it was pro-choice? Is there any other issue, except abortion where the word “choice” is used without a qualifying object. No, I will reject this silly rhetoric and use pro-abortion for exactly what it is.
This is simply, untrue. Someone has been listening too much to convicts.
She doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in summer of winning. Abbott was my last choice in the primary, but I would never vote for someone as pro-abortion as Davis. One simply does not get more evil.
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pnewton
Guest
No, Democrats are not Nazis. This is an absurd and uncharitable comparison.
To the point of the question, not all Democrats are pro-abortion. I heard in a homily about a Massachusetts Democrat that in the seminary discerning religious life when an accident left him paralyzed from the neck down. I was curious after hearing of this man and looked him up. I found that not only he, but several Democrats are actually anti-abortion, receiving a rating of 0 from NARAL. There are still some good Catholic Democrats which remain faithful. There are also some Republicans that break party ranks to remain faithful Catholics.
votesmart.org/interest-group/10/rating/6120#.U-L9ZZ0o6ic
Democrats can be anti-abortion and Republicans can be pro-social justice.
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ishii
Guest
Mulligan2 - you know that is not what I’m saying. Yet you insist on distorting my post. I am saying that a good Catholic ought not to vote for a party which is the party of abortion on demand. It is very interesting to see Democrat Catholics uncomfortable discussing this. How do I know they are uncomfortable? I know they are uncomfortable because they want to twist words and distort. Instead they should confront the reality of the modern Democrat party and understand that it is now morally bankrupt and unworthy of support. As I said in an earlier post it is time for people to wake up. Does that mean that one must vote Republican? Maybe yes or maybe no but that is not the point of this thread. this thread is asking if it is okay to vote Democrat. And I would argue that because the Democratic Party is morally bankrupt the answer is no. Now I invite anyone here on this forum to refute anything I have said about the Democratic Party and it’s nature. All I ask is that you do so without twisting and distorting.In essence you are saying that ‘good Catholics’ vote Republican and ‘bad Catholics’ vote Democratic.Sorry, Catholicism is NOT defined by party affiliation.
Ishii
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ishii
Guest
This post is one of the most fallen, utterly nonsensical defenses of a pro abortion politician I’ve ever seen. To basically say “it’s okay if Wendy Davis is pro-abortion because she is for giving money to the poor people” is outrageous. I would also add that such a position is diametrically opposed to Catholic moral teachings. I recommend that you educate yourself on the churches statements on the sanctity of life and the duties of responsible citizens to promote the sanctity of life. Voting for handouts to the poor does NOT absolve someone’s support for abortion.
Ishii
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ishii
Guest
Technically that is correct but the pro-life Democrats are so minimal as to be almost in consequential. Nancy Pelow see Barbara boxer and Hillary Clinton run the Democrat party not those obscure so-called pro-life Democrats you referred to. And referring to them, plays into the hands of liberal Democrat Catholics who are looking for any excuse to vote democrat.
Ishii
Mark121359
Well-known member
Well stated. I have witnessed the bolded above over and over and over again on this forum. A very astute observation. Another thing that Catholics should pay particular attention to. NARAL and Planned Parenthood are a fixture at the Democratic National Conventions and are keynote speakers. These folks don’t just support abortion… they actually **covet **it.
Peace, Mark
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1newcatholic
Guest
As a registered Independent, I have voted more than once for Democratic candidates and agendas. While Democrats support abortion and gay marriage rights–contra the teachings of the Catholic church–I have not made the mistake of confusing my private religious opinions (Catholicism) with the necessary rule of law. I don’t get to force my Catholicism on anyone. Those days are thankfully past. (When abortions and gay marriage become mandatory instead of optional, then come talk to me about my vote).
As a Christian, I feel obligated to side with the political groups that care about the things that Jesus cared about–like the poor. Or the indigent. Or abused children. Or the elderly. You know–the groups for which socialist welfare programs exist (Medicare, Social Services, Social Security, etc). Patriotic warmongering and pandering to archaic religious xenophobia is an effective strategy for gaining the support of a moral majority, but in the long run it produces hypocrisy on a grand scale, a false religiosity to which many, but not all, are blind. Capitalism, for example, is not a Christian value, and easily leads to the idolatrous love of money, but it is a precious principle to certain political parties.
I suspect that many people have given up on the very idea of church because the politicized Christianity that dominates the public American sphere is utterly craven and distasteful, and remote from the spiritual values taught by Jesus and the Apostles. “A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another.” Too many political groups forget this law when they spew their hate in the name of a religious identity, but “by their fruits ye shall know them.” Unfortunately the most hateful groups have a way of getting the most attention.
Just my thoughts.
As a Christian, I feel obligated to side with the political groups that care about the things that Jesus cared about–like the poor. Or the indigent. Or abused children. Or the elderly. You know–the groups for which socialist welfare programs exist (Medicare, Social Services, Social Security, etc). Patriotic warmongering and pandering to archaic religious xenophobia is an effective strategy for gaining the support of a moral majority, but in the long run it produces hypocrisy on a grand scale, a false religiosity to which many, but not all, are blind. Capitalism, for example, is not a Christian value, and easily leads to the idolatrous love of money, but it is a precious principle to certain political parties.
I suspect that many people have given up on the very idea of church because the politicized Christianity that dominates the public American sphere is utterly craven and distasteful, and remote from the spiritual values taught by Jesus and the Apostles. “A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another.” Too many political groups forget this law when they spew their hate in the name of a religious identity, but “by their fruits ye shall know them.” Unfortunately the most hateful groups have a way of getting the most attention.
Just my thoughts.
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Ender
Guest
Since the church has always recognized a state’s right to employ the death penalty even while never recognizing its right to legitimize abortion it would appear that, according to your standard, the church does not qualify to call herself pro-life. This position is simply a rationalization.
Ender
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freeRadical
Guest
I’m fine with a non-working government.
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freeRadical
Guest
Anything is better than the government.
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