Can Catholics Vote Democrat?

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You’re joking right??? Who passed that strict law in texas last year?

It wasn’t democrats!!!
As long as SCOTUS upholds the right of a person to have an abortion, everything else is just political window dressing. And there’s this problem with the GOP (I mean, if we are talking about being “pro-life”

The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. . . . I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.
—Pope John Paul II Papal Mass, St. Louis, Missouri, January 27, 1999
 
And your talking point characterizing the Democrats as inherently wasteful and incompetent and the GOP as wise and sensible exemplifies your position.

Black hats and white hats.
I would say this: Government is inherently wasteful, which includes both Democrats and Republicans. However, Democrats have made demagoguery on budget issues an art form. One need look no further than the headline of the article you linked to: “House GOP Would Kick 280,000 Children Off School Lunch Program To Protect Tax Cut For Millionaires”

By the way, you didn’t answer my question: Was the cut really a cut, or a decrease of an increase? I would also add one more: Do you feel that the government operates efficiently and there is no room to trim waste and improve productivity?
 
I’m going to through out a hypothetical here - what if you firmly believed that humans were contributing to a global warming trend that would quickly render the earth uninhabitable and you believed that the Democrats were willing to do something to halt this process and the Republicans only wished to be obstructionist (not saying I believe these things, but I can imagine a lot of Catholic Democrats do as that is how they are portrayed in the media). Wouldn’t that issue trump abortion according to the voting guidelines of the U.S. bishops? Wouldn’t saving the earth for human habitation be a reasonable justification for voting for a party that is in favor of legalized abortion?
No. Reason, the means never justify the ends.

Today’s society has it backwards… The ends do NOT justify the means.

Allowing the murder of babies and elderly to save the environment is selfish. In this situation, you are condoning evil in a attempt to save the world.

In your other example, you are potentially sacrificing the environment to save souls. Also, if proLife dems move into the Republican Party, they party could become a little more moderate in terms of social and environmental issues.

Policies and positions of politicians and parties change as more information becomes available. But you can never bring the dead back to life.

Besides, at the rate we are killing babies, one of those poor souls could have been the person to solve global warming, cold fusion, find a cure for cancer, a cure for HIV, etc.

So no… The five non-negotiables are just that.

Read these online guides:

catholic.com/sites/default/files/voters_guide_for_serious_catholics.pdf
ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm

Then read this about the correct interpretation of the Bishops’ 2012 doc on voting, because liberals and the heretical National Catholic Reporter (not to be confused with the good National Catholic Register) twisted the Bishops’ doc into being able to treat social justice and abortion as equal issues; when they are NOT.

thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-pro-life-usccb-voters-guide.html

Whenever there is doubt, Catholic.com and EWTN are 99.9% of the time right.

May The Lord forgive all of us who at least voted once for a pro-choice candidate.
Amen.
 
As long as SCOTUS upholds the right of a person to have an abortion, everything else is just political window dressing. And there’s this problem with the GOP (I mean, if we are talking about being “pro-life”

The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. . . . I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.
—Pope John Paul II Papal Mass, St. Louis, Missouri, January 27, 1999
I can’t believe that one can not see abortion clinics being shut down, banning abortions after 20 weeks, declines in the rate of abortion as being “window dressing”.
 
I would also add that the Bishops’ doc is listed in order of preference. Human Life comes first. If Candidate is good there, then Family Life. If the candidate matches the Catholic definition of Family Life, the you move to Social Justice. If their view of social justice is in line, the onto Global Solidarity.

BUT YOU CANNOT TAKE THESE OUT OF ORDER. A person who mets Catholic teaching on Social Justice & Global Solidarity but not on Human Life and Family Life cannot be voted for. They disqualify themselves from Catholic vote. If someone exemplifies all 4, they you must for for that person. But if neither candidate matches all 4 then you must vote with this in mind:
  • Human Life trumps Family Life, Social Justice and Global Solidarity.
  • Family Life trumps Social Justice and Global Solidarity
  • Social Justice trumps Global Solidarity.
May The Lord forgive all of us who at least voted once for a pro-choice candidate.
Amen.
 
No. Reason, the means never justify the ends.

Today’s society has it backwards… The ends do NOT justify the means.

Allowing the murder of babies and elderly to save the environment is selfish. In this situation, you are condoning evil in a attempt to save the world.
But not saving it makes the whole point of opposing abortion a moot one, would it not?
May The Lord forgive all of us who at least voted once for a pro-choice candidate.
Amen.
Here I’m not engaging with the five non-negotiables, but my understanding of what the U.S. bishops voting guide says, which is somewhat more nuanced. And my understanding of that document is that it would be sinful to vote for a politician because of his or her pro-abortion stance.
 
But not saving it makes the whole point of opposing abortion a moot one, would it not?

Here I’m not engaging with the five non-negotiables, but my understanding of what the U.S. bishops voting guide says, which is somewhat more nuanced. And my understanding of that document is that it would be sinful to vote for a politician because of his or her pro-abortion stance.
If their opponent is also pro-abortion. Please refer to the Cardinal Burke quote I posted earlier
 
I like to use my $35 can of green beans example for this argument. Lets say we want to feed an hungry person. A government official says “we will procure a can of green beans for that hungry person”. We then find out that the can of green beans cost $35. A Republican would say, “wait, that’s way to much to spend on a can of green beans. We should be able to buy that can for 69 cents…I will only approve funding for 69 cents.” The Democrat, wanting to ensure a lifelong voter, has a press conference on how the Republican hates hungry people and slashed the green bean budget. The Huffington Post headline reads: Republicans Slash Green Bean Budget by 98%".

Then that becomes the talking point on CAF by those who support the Democratic Party.
The name for the type of budgeting used by federal gov’t is Baseline Budgeting. Some people call it a scam. It started in the 1970’s. The Democrats love it because they can accuse their political opponents of starving poor people and hating the marginalized. Many Democrats on CAF repeat the lie and justify their voting to help the poor and marginalized.
Baseline Budgeting example: (this example is all over the internet)
A fed. agency is spending $250 billion per year and using baseline budgeting is slated for an automatic increase to $275 billion for the next year. The Republicans in Congress counter with an increase to $262 billion for this program. $275 billion minus $262 billion
equals $13 billion. Now there will be a $13 billion increase in this program.The Democrats call press conferences and town hall meetings telling everyone, including the non-questioning press, that the nasty Republicans want to cut the
XXX program for the poor by billions. There is no cut in the spending either way. In reality the program will grow by $12 billion with the Republican proposal.
THERE IS NEVER A CUT IN ACTUAL SPENDING ONLY A CUT IN THE PROJECTED RATE OF GROWTH.
Informed voters know this but the Democrats, w/ their cooperative press repeating the lie,
get another low-information-voter to cast their ballot for them.
 
The Conservative “wasteful” is my "necessary.

Feeding people who can’t afford food, giving people access to healthcare- not jus the ER, providing before and after school programs for vulnerable children- is social justice.
This has been and continues to be an argument not over the “what” (people do need help), but the “how”. Why does left the continually insist on the federal government–indeed, government in general–as the only means to achieve these ends? Conservatives do support “[f]eeding people who can’t afford food, giving people access to healthcare…, providing before and after school programs…” They just don’t think Uncle Sam is the appropriate means to do this.

This isn’t about the ends. The left and right agree on the ends. It is the means. And as I pointed out earlier, Church teaching on subsidiarity is more in line with the Republican point-of-view than the Democrat one.
Thinking that people have become to lazy to fend for themselves is not social justice.
Nobody in the Republican leadership has suggested that the needy “fend for themselves.” And conservatives here on CAF don’t advocate that either.
 
It’s interesting, when the Great Depression hit, the Swedes who immigrated or whomever, still took care of themselves, there would be a community kitchen. I think we can agree that basically these people turned out well, people of all colors and creeds and nationalities.

But the social programs of the Federal Government awarded single mothers with monthly payments, has really torn up the communities it was intended to help.
 
Do you mean post # 290?
*“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,” *

*“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone,” *

Cardinal Burke
 
thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/25/470967/gop-school-lunch-cuts/

House Republicans recently proposed cuts to nutrition assistance that will kick 280,000 low-income children off automatic enrollment in the Free School Lunch and Breakfast Program. Those same kids and 1.5 million other people will also lose their Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (formerly food stamp benefits) that help them afford food at home.

Well, limiting the ability of some kids to eat school lunches.

I answered a bombastic and silly post with one.

Very defensive of the GOP eh?
You’re using ThinkProgress propaganda to support your claim that Republicans may advocate for elimination of school funding? Do you have any real news source to back up your claim?
 
*“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,” *

*“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone,” *

Cardinal Burke
Is this Cardinal Burke presenting his prudential judgment on the interpretation of CCC 2197-2257, or is it Cardinal Burke adding to the deposit of faith that would be binding on all Catholics? Or is it binding only on those living in the Archdiocese under Cardinal Burke?
 
Is this Cardinal Burke presenting his prudential judgment on the interpretation of CCC 2197-2257, or is it Cardinal Burke adding to the deposit of faith that would be binding on all Catholics? Or is it binding only on those living in the Archdiocese under Cardinal Burke?
He s affirming the teachings of the Church-if you can find a member of the Magisterium who contradicts him post away.

Archbishop Chaput also affirms these teachings:

Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit–but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.
 
Is this Cardinal Burke presenting his prudential judgment on the interpretation of CCC 2197-2257, or is it Cardinal Burke adding to the deposit of faith that would be binding on all Catholics? Or is it binding only on those living in the Archdiocese under Cardinal Burke?
Wow
 
You have stated that you were an involved member of the Democrat Party in the past and yet your posts show complete allegiance to everything GOP and complete opposition to even the most basic tenets of the Democrat Party.

I imagine that your entire outlook has changed- that your foundational thoughts on politics have taken a 180. You can’t say that the democrats “left you” as your posts show no hint of appreciation of any aspect of the Democratic Party- be it in the past or in the present.

Not just talking abortion and same sex marriage either- if you stated that you retain some thought on liberal principles but the Democrats “left you” due to abortion and same sex marriage- that would make sense and be consistent. But your opinions show NOTHING democratic about them.

In other words, if you thought as you do while you were with the Democratic Party- that would be like a guy wearing a black suit to a party wearing all white. Complete and utter difference of opinion on all matters but saying “I am one of you”.

It just doesn’t make sense.
It makes perfect sense.

I must be older than you. During the time I served the party, it really did do things for the poor, or at least things that were intended to do so. Medicare, Medicaid, all kinds of programs were initiated by the Democrats.

It also promoted low interest school loans for kids whose parents were, with that generation, trying to break into the middle class. Much, much lower interest than now, and pretty generous forgiveness. It really was a pretty good “public/private” partnership and did NOT burden the budget beyond the threat of default. Now, the PRINCIPAL comes from the federal budget. And how about the robust foreign and defense policies of Truman, JFK and Johnson? Even Clinton. You might not agree with all of them, but at least those men did not shrink from their responsibilities. Johnson took full responsibility for the problems of Vietnam. Clinton at least shot cruise missiles at Bin Ladin, and had them available to shoot. I personally think Clinton made a mistake in bombing Serbia, but at least he ACTED.

JFK lowered taxes on working people. So did Clinton. But so did Reagan and Bush. Obama never met a tax he didn’t like, and has introduced “stealth” taxes into a lot of things. Once upon a time, the Dem party favored people who worked for their incomes…even upper middle class incomes. Not now.

But since then, the party has gravitated to impotence abroad and “middle class welfare” at home. I was appalled (as JFK and Lyndon Johnson would have been) with a program in which people wealthy enough to buy new cars would get a tax break to do what they would have done anyway, and then destroyed the “clunkers” upon which poor people depend. What a heartless thing to do.

The Dems had total power early in Obama’s administration. They could have passed anything important to them. Did they improve SSI for the poorest of the poor who could not help themselves? No, that’s still miserable. But they did cut back on food stamps…for the developmentally disabled, that is. In rewarding healthcare providers for “well care” (middle class, mostly) and cutting back on reimbursement for “chronic care”, who gets hit? Mostly poor people and the disabled. What did they focus their healthcare efforts on? Well, Obamacare, which is a program to make part of the middle class subsidize another segment of the middle class and shoves 17 million more people onto an already overburdened Medicaid on which the truly poor depended for the limited slots available. Heartless. And all without apparently reducing the number of people with no coverage. At least Medicare applied to ALL seniors

And, of course, Dem administrations previously did not propose to fund abortions, did not profane marriage and most certainly did not oppress Catholics with things like the HHS mandate or Lutherans with things like we saw them try to do in the Hosana Tabor case. People of faith have to sue this government in order to protect religious liberties that the government should not have attacked in the first place.

No, I haven’t changed. Perhaps I can be faulted as a “bad Democrat” in that I have not “progressed” with the party that is now about gender politics and oppression of churches and not much else. But I really couldn’t do that and remain Catholic.

The Democrats of today are essentially the “Rockefeller Republicans” of yesteryear. Elitist, servants of wealth, disdainful of traditional values, regarding the poor as a “political commodity”. The Repubs of today are much more like the Democrats when I was growing up and as a young man.

When it comes to adherence to “classic” Democrat policies, I’m far more a Democrat than those who support the party now.

But as far as standing for what the party actually stands for now…no, I’m not, and you’re right about that.
 
A couple of notes about this thread:
  1. Stop saying “you this, you that”. There’s no reason to be using the pronoun YOU on the news forums since ISSUES, not individual posters should be discussed.
  2. Being against big government does not mean that people want NO government. The American left needs to stop running around acting like people who oppose the current trend of government in the USA want there to be no government. If one cannot argue on substance, then it’s time to take a dose of humility and re-examine one’s position. :yup:
It would probably be just a useful footnote for those who are conservative to continue stating stances for limited government.
 
It makes perfect sense.

I must be older than you. During the time I served the party, it really did do things for the poor, or at least things that were intended to do so. Medicare, Medicaid, all kinds of programs were initiated by the Democrats.

It also promoted low interest school loans for kids whose parents were, with that generation, trying to break into the middle class. Much, much lower interest than now, and pretty generous forgiveness. It really was a pretty good “public/private” partnership and did NOT burden the budget beyond the threat of default. Now, the PRINCIPAL comes from the federal budget. And how about the robust foreign and defense policies of Truman, JFK and Johnson? Even Clinton. You might not agree with all of them, but at least those men did not shrink from their responsibilities. Johnson took full responsibility for the problems of Vietnam. Clinton at least shot cruise missiles at Bin Ladin, and had them available to shoot. I personally think Clinton made a mistake in bombing Serbia, but at least he ACTED.

JFK lowered taxes on working people. So did Clinton. But so did Reagan and Bush. Obama never met a tax he didn’t like, and has introduced “stealth” taxes into a lot of things. Once upon a time, the Dem party favored people who worked for their incomes…even upper middle class incomes. Not now.

But since then, the party has gravitated to impotence abroad and “middle class welfare” at home. I was appalled (as JFK and Lyndon Johnson would have been) with a program in which people wealthy enough to buy new cars would get a tax break to do what they would have done anyway, and then destroyed the “clunkers” upon which poor people depend. What a heartless thing to do.

The Dems had total power early in Obama’s administration. They could have passed anything important to them. Did they improve SSI for the poorest of the poor who could not help themselves? No, that’s still miserable. But they did cut back on food stamps…for the developmentally disabled, that is. In rewarding healthcare providers for “well care” (middle class, mostly) and cutting back on reimbursement for “chronic care”, who gets hit? Mostly poor people and the disabled. What did they focus their healthcare efforts on? Well, Obamacare, which is a program to make part of the middle class subsidize another segment of the middle class and shoves 17 million more people onto an already overburdened Medicaid on which the truly poor depended for the limited slots available. Heartless. And all without apparently reducing the number of people with no coverage. At least Medicare applied to ALL seniors

And, of course, Dem administrations previously did not propose to fund abortions, did not profane marriage and most certainly did not oppress Catholics with things like the HHS mandate or Lutherans with things like we saw them try to do in the Hosana Tabor case. People of faith have to sue this government in order to protect religious liberties that the government should not have attacked in the first place.

No, I haven’t changed. Perhaps I can be faulted as a “bad Democrat” in that I have not “progressed” with the party that is now about gender politics and oppression of churches and not much else. But I really couldn’t do that and remain Catholic.

The Democrats of today are essentially the “Rockefeller Republicans” of yesteryear. Elitist, servants of wealth, disdainful of traditional values, regarding the poor as a “political commodity”.

When it comes to adherence to “classic” Democrat policies, I’m far more a Democrat than those who support the party now.

But as far as standing for what the party actually stands for now…no, I’m not, and you’re right about that.
You stated this far better than this former Democrat could. Thanks!
 
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