Can Catholics Vote Democrat?

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I never have claimed that a Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion candidate.
I’m not 100% sure what you are saying.
I think you ought to stop misrepresenting my post.
Don’t think I did. I may be guilty of lumping you in with others, but misrepresenting? I don’t think so.
There is no way you can argue otherwise.
It depends on the situation and if this “pro-life” candidate has addressed the platform issues. As long as that platform supports intrinsic evils the candidate has much to explain before a Catholic can vote for him/her.
You are going to have to cite the Church teaching that addresses this particular issue. Are you saying that it is morally acceptable to vote for a pro-abortion republican over a pro-life democrat to keep the democrats from taking control of the house or senate? If that is what you are saying you are going to have to cite some teaching to defend that view.
You keep bringing up this imaginary race and I repeat, please go back and do the research; no one here has advocating voting for any pro-abortion candidates except those who make excuses to vote for Democrats who are pro-abortion. I am registered as “no party”, an independent; I will not vote for anyone who is not pro-life or at least more pro-life than the other candidate. This is what the Church documents support.
The church does not address the issue of parties, it addresses the issue of candidates.
She does in fact speak of candidates and not blanket statements of party. But while the party stands for intrinsic evils this does attach that stigma to every candidate with a “D” behind their names.

With your demands for absolutes you are blocking reason. The CCC talks about this in the section dealing with formation of conscience. Ignorance is one thing but rejecting formation and remaining in ignorance places responsibility back on us.
 
Again we go with the Magisterium. We can vote for a Democrat but need to keep in mind the direction the Party has taken when we do vote."

At this point, the Democratic Party risks transforming itself definitively into a “party of death” due to its choices on bioethical issues, as Ramesh Ponnuru wrote in his book "The Party of Death: The Democrats, the Media, the Courts and the Disregard for Human Life."And I say this with a heavy heart, because we all know that the Democrats were the party that helped our Catholic immigrant parents and grandparents to better integrate into and prosper in American society. But it’s not the same anymore.Nonetheless, there are among Democrats some pro-lifers, but they are, unfortunately, rare.

. *Above all, following some evidently poor statements on the part of the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, and of the Democratic candidate to vice president, Senator Joe Biden, who, while presenting themselves as good Catholics, have represented Church teaching on abortion in a false and tendentious manner. *

Cardinal Burke
I’m not sure if quoting Cardinal Burke adds to your argument, or weakens it.

From the Associated Press last year:

*ST. LOUIS (AP) – Pope Francis announced changes in the influential Vatican office that evaluates and nominates candidates for bishop around the world.

Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington was appointed Monday to the Congregation for Bishops. The pope also reconfirmed Cardinal William Levada, the former archbishop of San Francisco and former head of the Vatican’s orthodoxy watchdog office.

Some members of the congregation were very conspicuously not retained. Cardinal Raymond Burke, former Archbishop of St. Louis, will no longer serve in the office.

Burke is considered an outspoken critic of abortion and same-sex marriage and a favorite of conservative Catholics. He has also been publicly critical of Francis’s changes in the direction of the church. *
 
I’m not sure if quoting Cardinal Burke adds to your argument, or weakens it.

From the Associated Press last year:

*ST. LOUIS (AP) – Pope Francis announced changes in the influential Vatican office that evaluates and nominates candidates for bishop around the world.

Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington was appointed Monday to the Congregation for Bishops. The pope also reconfirmed Cardinal William Levada, the former archbishop of San Francisco and former head of the Vatican’s orthodoxy watchdog office.

Some members of the congregation were very conspicuously not retained. Cardinal Raymond Burke, former Archbishop of St. Louis, will no longer serve in the office.

Burke is considered an outspoken critic of abortion and same-sex marriage and a favorite of conservative Catholics. He has also been publicly critical of Francis’s changes in the direction of the church. *
If you are taking the medias slant on this story to mean that Pope Francis removed him purposely because he was outside of Church teaching you are sadly mistaken. It is very normal for people to come and go from these positions. Had this been a liberal leaning Bishop being replaced it would not have even been a story.

Please look deeper. Cardinal Burke is a very reliable and credible voice to echo in a discussion where it comes to following Church teaching.
 
I’m not 100% sure what you are saying.
You were the one claiming that I was the one supporting voting for a pro-abortion candidate. And if you search this thread you will never finding me advocating such a thing.
Don’t think I did. I may be guilty of lumping you in with others, but misrepresenting? I don’t think so.
Let’s unpack what you exactly said. You said:
I have, and others in this thread have quoted many documents to illustrate how a Catholic cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate no matter what the party.
You make the above claim, but it was totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. The question at hand was: “Can one belong to the democrat party”. Now, there is no Church teaching that says one cannot belong to the democrat party, you know that as well as I do. If there was such a teaching you would present it in a heartbeat, but you cannot because it does not exist.
It depends on the situation and if this “pro-life” candidate has addressed the platform issues. As long as that platform supports intrinsic evils the candidate has much to explain before a Catholic can vote for him/her.
Care to back this up with some Church teaching, or is this just your personal opinion?
You keep bringing up this imaginary race and I repeat, please go back and do the research; no one here has advocating voting for any pro-abortion candidates except those who make excuses to vote for Democrats who are pro-abortion. I am registered as “no party”, an independent; I will not vote for anyone who is not pro-life or at least more pro-life than the other candidate. This is what the Church documents support.
I have not said anything different than what Church teaching supports.
She does in fact speak of candidates and not blanket statements of party. But while the party stands for intrinsic evils this does attach that stigma to every candidate with a “D” behind their names.
I agree that the platform is problematic in many ways, but there is nothing in Church teaching that says a faithful Catholic cannot be a democrat.
With your demands for absolutes you are blocking reason.
I would say that your approach is the one blocking reason. I am thinking with the Church. I am not going to be my own magesterium and interpret things beyond what the Church actually says.
The CCC talks about this in the section dealing with formation of conscience. Ignorance is one thing but rejecting formation and remaining in ignorance places responsibility back on us.
Who here has rejected formation? You are making claims and not backing them up. Asking difficult questions is not rejecting formation, it is the very heart of formation. And formation in theory should be a continuing process.
 
A Catholic voting democrat is the same thing as an early christian voting for Nero. The democrats are the ones who are not so much in favor of religious freedom. Look at the HHS mandate and Hobby Lobby. Plus, Obama didn’t allow a navy submarine or ship, I forgot which one, to have mass for Catholics.
 
I’m not sure if quoting Cardinal Burke adds to your argument, or weakens it.

From the Associated Press last year:

ST. LOUIS (AP) – Pope Francis announced changes in the influential Vatican office that evaluates and nominates candidates for bishop around the world.

Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington was appointed Monday to the Congregation for Bishops. The pope also reconfirmed Cardinal William Levada, the former archbishop of San Francisco and former head of the Vatican’s orthodoxy watchdog office.

Some members of the congregation were very conspicuously not retained. Cardinal Raymond Burke, former Archbishop of St. Louis, will no longer serve in the office.


*Burke is considered an outspoken critic of abortion and same-sex marriage and a favorite of conservative Catholics. He has also been publicly critical of Francis’s changes in the direction of the church. *
He is no longer a member of the Magestrium? Has Cardinal Wuerl contradicted him? Do you have any quotes from any member of the Magestrium disputing what he said?

Was he critical of Pope Francis when he said this?

"Defend the unborn against abortion even if they persecute you, calumniate you, set traps for you, take you to court or kill you. No child should be deprived of the right to be born, the right to be fed, the right to go to school."

Or this?

"Every child that isn’t born, but is unjustly condemned to be aborted, has the face of Jesus Christ, has the face of the Lord."

In fact where was he ever publicly critical of Poe Francis?
 
So we are to see that the Guttmacher institute’s figures may not be correct??
For its figures used in its international studies such as Sedgh et al. (2012), the work by Elard Koch and colleagues in Chile has pretty definitively punched a hold in it. He found their methods WAY overestimated abortion rates in Mexico City in the years right after it was legalized, which casts serious doubt on the methods employed by Guttmacher researchers.
One thing is clear though, the rates of abortions in states like Utah and Wyoming are extremely low and possibly their populations as well.
And the rate in New York City is sky-high, with an abortion ratio (abortions per 1000 live births) of 694 in 2010, according to CDC’ latest surveillance report. If you consider each abortion to be a potentially viable pregnancy, that suggests that
694 / (1000+694) = 41.0% of viable pregnancies in New York City end in abortion. I note that this estimate is for abortions occurring in NYC, not just residents.

Compare that, as you said, to Utah, which has an abortion ratio for in-state abortion occurrence of 72. That suggests that 72 + (1000+72) = 6.7% of viable pregnacies in Utah end in abortion.

This discrepancy is enormous. And you can’t just attribute that to state regulation. It’s culture. Abortion patterns in Utah are overwhelmingly influenced by the Mormonism of the majority of its inhabitants. Large segments of the population in Utah recognize that abortion is morally wrong. In contrast, with about 4 in 10 pregnancies in New York City ending in abortion, a huge segment of the population there sees little wrong with abortion.

This illustrates my point: abortion is legal in both states, but it’s the culture that makes the biggest difference. Also, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion will remain legal in New York City, along with many other states. If you want to reduce abortion in New York City (as I do), you need to change the culture there! That’s evangelism.
Still, with total respect, these figures don’t seem to get us anywhere in that they are dispelling reported numbers.
This can pertain to murders committed, rapes committed, shoplifting misdemeanors and so on.
Sure, maybe a paper is peer reviewed and maybe it can be shown that a statistician asserts there were 500,000 abortions in 1931 or 1941. I’m still not sure what kind of argument we are putting up.
It’s saying that on a per-capita basis, the abortion rates before 1940 appear to be not that different than they are today. The implications of that similarity in rates are ENORMOUS. It’s saying that the abortion rate really doesn’t vary that much, whether or not abortion is legal. And with a bunch of states that are nearly certain to maintain abortion’s legal status for at least next generation without an evangelical push, saying that it’s immoral to vote for a Democrat, regardless of their other policy positions, is a statement binding people to the hopelessly flawed electoral strategy that of those people here arguing for it to be true.
I would say your arguments are not always pertinent, that even if we say a high number of abortions that are committed on the black market, that has little to do with saying the US Government should not be funding abortion providers like Planned Parenthood.
I agree that the government should not be funding Planned Parenthood.
You can say it’s not lowering rates but we have states like Missouri, like Mississippi that have one abortion clinic in the whole state. I doubt if we will see that because this is so, that means the business at that one clinic is thriving.
Missouri has an abortion ratio of 80 for in-state occurrence, similar to Utah’s. Mississippi has an abortion ratio of 57 for in-state occurrence, lower than Utah’s. However, if you look at Missouri residents regardless of where the abortion occurs, the abortion ratio is 158 – about twice as high. For Mississippi, the ratio for in-state residents is 146. This tells me two things: first, that the cultures in these two states discourage abortion. Second, residents of both states are nevertheless traveling out of state to get their abortions, with the result that there are twice as many abortions that occur among residents (regarless of where the abortion occurs) than there are abortions that occur in the state – confirming a contention I made earlier.
Okay, so you seem to actually be coming out with data that is in fact, pro-choice in nature. That is fine, we can look at these statements. However in basically posting information beneficial to the abortion industry, it just doesn’t seem like a very pro-life way to look at things.
Data isn’t pro-choice or pro-life. Data is data. I don’t hide data, one way or the other. I’m citing all the evidence that I could find from before 1940, when all abortion was illegal. In 1931, Taussig was only reporting data from an experiment in USSR, and wasn’t arguing for legalization here. Please don’t make the mistake of collapsing any information that you find unpleasant into a politically-motivated campaign to promote abortion.
 
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Path_Finder:
Again, it seems to say “backalley abortions” are a danger, so abortion on demand should be the law of the land.
I’m not saying anything about “should.” I’m saying that if abortion is illegal, black market abortions WILL be the law of the land. They’ll be much safer now than they were back before 1940. Cytotec can already be purchased easily on the black market, and it results in an abortion about 70% of the time. Also, when you limit the supply of a thing, you increase the profitability of suppliers willing to provide the service (e.g., the abortion clinics remaining in Missouri and Mississippi), and I have no doubt that abortion providers will remain even in states where it is illegal… look at the pre-1940 papers and see how easy it was to get an abortion even when it was illegal!
Please understand one argument that cuts across all of the info you post. I don’t want my taxpayers being involved in the DemocratIC party cash cow of Planned Parenthood. Even if we have abortion available in this country, the government should not be involved in funding Planned Parenthood.
I agree. But that’s a different battle. Here’s what FactCheck.org says about its funding:
*Planned Parenthood’s 2008-2009 annual report states that it received $363.2 million in “Government Grants and Contracts.” (See page 29.) That’s about one-third of its total revenues for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2009.
However, not all of that money is from the federal government. Planned Parenthood’s government funding comes from two sources: the Title X Family Planning Program and Medicaid. About $70 million is Title X funding, Planned Parenthood spokesman Tait Sye told us. The rest — about $293 million — is Medicaid funding, which includes both federal and state money.
But Planned Parenthood cannot use the money it receives from the federal government for abortions anyway. According to the Department of Health and Human Service’s website, “by law, Title X funds may not be used in programs where abortion is a method of family planning.” Medicaid funding is restricted by the Hyde Amendment to only abortion cases involving rape, incest or endangerment to the life of the mother. Some states use their own funds under Medicaid to go beyond that. Seventeen states and, until recently, the District of Columbia pay for “medically necessary” abortions, according to the Guttmacher Institute. The federal budget deal now bans Washington, D.C., from using its funds to pay for abortions.*
At present, Federal money cannot be used for abortion. However, it’s likely that without this funding source, Planned Parenthood would need to scale back its activities. But to do so, you need to argue for specific legislation changes, namely, to Title X, and that’s a whole different battle.
 
A Catholic voting democrat is the same thing as an early christian voting for Nero. The democrats are the ones who are not so much in favor of religious freedom. Look at the HHS mandate and Hobby Lobby. Plus, Obama didn’t allow a navy submarine or ship, I forgot which one, to have mass for Catholics.
I think it was a navy or army base that was not allowed to have Mass said, but OTHER services could be conducted (e.g. protestant). All because of the government shutdown and the fact that a catholic chaplain is “under contract” with the government.
 
You were the one claiming that I was the one supporting voting for a pro-abortion candidate. And if you search this thread you will never finding me advocating such a thing.

Let’s unpack what you exactly said. You said:

You make the above claim, but it was totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. The question at hand was: “Can one belong to the democrat party”. Now, there is no Church teaching that says one cannot belong to the democrat party, you know that as well as I do. If there was such a teaching you would present it in a heartbeat, but you cannot because it does not exist.

Care to back this up with some Church teaching, or is this just your personal opinion?

I have not said anything different than what Church teaching supports.

I agree that the platform is problematic in many ways, but there is nothing in Church teaching that says a faithful Catholic cannot be a democrat.

I would say that your approach is the one blocking reason. I am thinking with the Church. I am not going to be my own magesterium and interpret things beyond what the Church actually says.

Who here has rejected formation? You are making claims and not backing them up. Asking difficult questions is not rejecting formation, it is the very heart of formation. And formation in theory should be a continuing process.
Once again I repeat, I’m not sure what you are saying; not sure what your argument is.

It is against Church teaching to be supportive of those who support evil. It’s that simple and those documents have repeatedly been posted. What has not been posted is the document by a member of the magisterium, past or present, that says otherwise.

If you are not advocating supporting an abortion candidate, why do you feel the need to argue?
 
Once again I repeat, I’m not sure what you are saying; not sure what your argument is.

It is against Church teaching to be supportive of those who support evil.
True, you cannot vote for pro-abortion politicians when there is a pro-life alternative available. The Church however says nothing about what party one may belong to.
It’s that simple and those documents have repeatedly been posted. What has not been posted is the document by a member of the magisterium, past or present, that says otherwise.
There is nothing in the documents that discusses whether or not one can belong to a particular party. You know that as well as I do, because in all of these discussions you have not cited one document.
If you are not advocating supporting an abortion candidate, why do you feel the need to argue?
Because the truth is important. It may be inconvenient for you, but we have to reflect Church teachings accurately and fully. We cannot represent Church teaching as saying something that it does not say.
 
True, you cannot vote for pro-abortion politicians when there is a pro-life alternative available. The Church however says nothing about what party one may belong to.

There is nothing in the documents that discusses whether or not one can belong to a particular party. You know that as well as I do, because in all of these discussions you have not cited one document.

Because the truth is important. It may be inconvenient for you, but we have to reflect Church teachings accurately and fully. We cannot represent Church teaching as saying something that it does not say.
I take it you’re saying “the party” and its “officials and leaders” are not coextensive. Technically, that’s true, but abortion support is pretty pervasive among the latter. I can’t remember how many Dem congressmen were identified as “prolife” by NARAL and NRLC, but it was fewer than ten as I best recall. On the other hand, both identified only about the same number of “pro-choice” Repubs. And, of course, the party platforms tell one what the position of “the party” is as to both.

So, while you’re right in a narrow sense, one can say one “can’t vote Democrat” conscientiously as a Catholic, in a shorthand sense, but there are still those seven or either Dem congressmen for whom one might conscientiously vote. None of them are in my state, however. But it is good to caution people to look at candidates’ positions even though the Dem party as an organization may be almost entirely corrupt when it comes to abortion, just in case your congressman is one of the seven or eight and you agree with him/her in other ways too.

But one really has to wonder how any prolife person can stand being a member of the Dem party. Local traditions and such, perhaps.
 
True, you cannot vote for pro-abortion politicians when there is a pro-life alternative available. The Church however says nothing about what party one may belong to.

There is nothing in the documents that discusses whether or not one can belong to a particular party. You know that as well as I do, because in all of these discussions you have not cited one document.

Because the truth is important. It may be inconvenient for you, but we have to reflect Church teachings accurately and fully. We cannot represent Church teaching as saying something that it does not say.
The truth is, if a party/person supports evil; a Catholic cannot support it/them.
 
Take it up with Church. The Church says I cant vote for a pro-abortion candidate. It says nothing about being friends with them or being friends with those who support abortion. Since all my Siblings and my Mother are yellow Dog Democrats were I to follow you advice instead of the Church’s I would have to disown my family…
I did not advise you or anyone to break friendships with anyone. I was only asking at what level of indirectness the culpability for the abortions diminishes to an allowable level. Saying “take it up with the Church” means you just don’t have any self-contained common sense answer. Once again, the question was stated here.
 
I did not advise you or anyone to break friendships with anyone. I was only asking at what level of indirectness the culpability for the abortions diminishes to an allowable level. Saying “take it up with the Church” means you just don’t have any self-contained common sense answer. Once again, the question was stated here.
I gave you my answer. per the teachings of the Church I don’t vote for pro-abortion candidates. I don’t have a problem with being friends with sinners.
 
The truth is, if a party/person supports evil; a Catholic cannot support it/them.
Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the word "support" in this statement? I know that in the context of this discussion, support is taken to mean only one thing: “vote for…”. But the statement you made sounds more general than that, since there are many ways one might “support” an idea or policy or person or party. In particular, can you give an example of other ways - non-voting ways - in which this injunction can apply. I can think of several, but I would rather hear it from you before I propose any.
 
I did not advise you or anyone to break friendships with anyone. I was only asking at what level of indirectness the culpability for the abortions diminishes to an allowable level. Saying “take it up with the Church” means you just don’t have any self-contained common sense answer. Once again, the question was stated here.
I might be stepping into a discussion out of place here, but you are in fact doing what many do to support their “right” to vote for pro-abortion candidates, you are cluttering the argument with un-related topics. Bob simply is not taking part in the foolishness. I tend to agree with him.

The Church states plainly that a Catholic in good standing with a properly and fully formed conscience cannot vote for a candidate who supports abortion without being culpable of grave sin. What does culpability mean? The Archbishop of New Orleans has made public statements to Catholic contract companies who are participating in constructing a new Planned Parenthood facility in New Orleans that they cannot do so without the culpability of the sin of participation in the evil. He has implored the local contractors in his territory to refuse the work.

Unfortunately we have a society which feels “that’s not my fight…I’m personally not pro-abortion…oh, I never had an abortion.” Well, it doesn’t work that way. Participation comes in many different levels, one of which is supporting those who make it possible like politicians and parties who have historically made it more readily available.

You have tried to bring absurdity into the discussion and therefore, dilute the point being made.

Let me ask you this question. Say you are a taxi cab driver and one morning you pick up a woman who tells you she is on her way to a clinic to terminate a pregnancy. If you bring her, which is your job, is that participation in evil?
 
I want to raise some other issues as well.

In the late 1990s and early 2000s, I spent a considerable time working to allow humanitarian aid to several countries, including Iraq, including with a bishop with whom I marched. We were trying to raise money and awareness of the plight of Iraqis who, caught between the pincers of (A) the Hussein regime and (B) the UN sanctions, were dying of diseases that their failing water infrastructure no longer was able to remove and which were facing all number of public health crises from starvation (in some cases) to rolling blackouts affecting their hospitals as their power plants couldn’t be properly repaired under the sanctions.

After 9/11, as the Bush regime beat the drums of war and started talking about WMD being linked with Al-Qaeda, I was able to rely on my somewhat extensive understanding of Iraqi infrastructure to cast an extremely skeptical eye on the justification the Bush administration put forward. I participated in peace vigils, wrote letters to the president, Congress, and the newspapers, but of course, it didn’t make a lick of difference. I warned about the humanitarian crisis that would unfold if we went to war over what seemed to me to be a wholly synthetic case for war, sold by Colin Powell to the UN and the public at large with cartoons. I’d been looking at photos of Iraqi infrastructure for years. What the Bush administration presented to me was a PR campaign, playing on American fears of Al-Qaeda in the most cynical and deceitful way possible.

Although it wasn’t until 2005 that Iraq really started to get bad, the 2004 election presented a very clear case about voting. During this time, while I was listening to my local Catholic radio station, one prominent pro-life advocate, possibly Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life, argue that while abortion was a “non-negotiable” issue in Catholic moral theology, Just War Doctrine allowed the prudential use of military force in a situation like Iraq. To me that was shameful at best, and illustrated to me how blind the pro-life movement had become – one of their prominent spokespeople was parroting the Bush administration’s lies. That’s when I lost nearly all respect for the argument about “non-negotiables.”

To me, the Bush-led invasion of Iraq was unmitigated evil, one that was plunging the country into civil war (which didn’t even get bad until after the 2004 election). It was deception of the public on a mass scale, and the use of might-makes-right to justify the hegemonic projection of overwhelming military force. That year, I was disgusted by the hard push by devout Catholics to vote for Bush (trumped up behind “non-negotiables”), because in his war in Iraq, I saw an utter disregard for human life.

The 2004 “Ratzinger Memo” included a footnote that, to me, justified my voting for a presidential candidate who opposed the war in Iraq:
When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.
To me, I had “proportionate reasons.” I sincerely believed, and felt with my conscience, that a vote for Bush in 2004 was a vote for death.

Beyond that election, the “non-negotiables” argument had become a hollow shell. When I mentioned the “footnote” to other Catholics, they argued to me that abortion was such an enormous holocaust of humanity, killing 1,000,000 unborn babies every year, that it outweighed any concern about the war in Iraq or any other issue. By citing numbers, it seemed to me that these Catholics had made what amounts to a utilitarian argument.

Since then, I have felt the need to really evaluate the claims by those who tell me that abortion, and the electoral strategy of overturning Roe v. Wade and erecting more state-level restrictions on abortion, should trump all other issues. As a Catholic and a scientist trying to live with integrity, I have looked at as much of the science of abortion, contraception, childbearing, and related behavioral economics, and come to the conclusion that the electoral strategy of “non-negotiables” is simply wrong.

I am no great lover of Democrats. But I feel that this hyper-partisan split among Catholics is destroying the Church. All culture reduce to your voting patterns. “Culture of life” equals “voting Republican.” Evangelism is ignored. Science is ignored. Data is viewed as “good” or “bad,” depending on whether it supports the policy position of the pro-life movement.

I am pro-life. I believe that abortion is murder in all cases. But I don’t buy into this shallow version of political theology.
 
I might be stepping into a discussion out of place here, but you are in fact doing what many do to support their “right” to vote for pro-abortion candidates, you are cluttering the argument with un-related topics. Bob simply is not taking part in the foolishness. I tend to agree with him.

?
Exactly.
 
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