Can Catholics Vote Democrat?

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Lapey said:
In what way are the Holy Father’s words stating that there are negotiable values??? In this statement he is supporting even on a stronger level that we as Catholics are held to a higher standard. He is not refuting the “non-negotiable” lists, he is securing that values in general are non-negotiable.

How does this make your case and not those of the pro-life voters???
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I find the false dichotomy of this sentence offensive, “my case” versus that of the “pro-life voter”. Such a slanderous question can not even be answered. Such divisive and inaccurate rhetoric is part of the problem with presenting the case against legalized abortion. I am as opposed to abortion as any person can be, and in full agreement of the Church. What I disagree with is that “abortion = Democrat”. The strong link between the two and the correlation that exists still does not justify in treating them as synonyms.
 
Dawnia said:
We can wish all we want to have more options, but our government is designed as a two party government and that isn’t going to change without major changes. The only options we really have are to change the parties we have.
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I like this last sentence, but I would note that it can be read in three ways. We can choose personal to change the party that we personally have. We can choose to work to change in the party that we believe to be most inline with us (hopefully all do this to some extent). We can work to change the two parties (Democrat or Republican) to two other parties, or change the two-party system. I will only think of choosing the latter two options. I could never be a Democrat for several reasons and the Republican Party has abandoned too much of what I believe to be part of my core values.
 
pnewton said:
I find the false dichotomy of this sentence offensive, “my case” versus that of the “pro-life voter”. Such a slanderous question can not even be answered. Such divisive and inaccurate rhetoric is part of the problem with presenting the case against legalized abortion. I am as opposed to abortion as any person can be, and in full agreement of the Church. What I disagree with is that “abortion = Democrat”. The strong link between the two and the correlation that exists still does not justify in treating them as synonyms.
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First off, you chose to speak out against the term non negotiable, not us. Second, you misrepresented Pope Francis’ statement. Third, you seem a little sensitive, don’t you think? Forth, as long as unfettered access to abortion is in the Democrat platform they are connected. You used the word synonym, I can go with that.
 
Lapey said:
Forth, as long as unfettered access to abortion is in the Democrat platform they are connected. You used the word synonym, I can go with that.
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You may well choose to treat them as synonyms and call them such. However, I think you will find you convincing only the convinced. If the goal is to reduce abortion and not just posture, accurate communication must be a priority. “The choir” needs no conversion.
 
Lapey said:
Forth, as long as unfettered access to abortion is in the Democrat platform they are connected. You used the word synonym, I can go with that.
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I would say the word synonym is wrong here. Abortion is strongly correlated with the democrat party. But to be a democrat does not mean you agree with every plank in the party platform. Also, as we have established voting for a democrat can be perfectly moral despite the problematic plank in the platform.
 
pnewton said:
I like this last sentence, but I would note that it can be read in three ways. We can choose personal to change the party that we personally have. We can choose to work to change in the party that we believe to be most inline with us (hopefully all do this to some extent). We can work to change the two parties (Democrat or Republican) to two other parties, or change the two-party system. I will only think of choosing the latter two options. I could never be a Democrat for several reasons and the Republican Party has abandoned too much of what I believe to be part of my core values.
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What I meant is working within the two parties we have. The values of the parties reflect the values of their supporters. I think we are stuck with Dems & Repubs, so we might as well make the best of it.
 
pnewton said:
You may well choose to treat them as synonyms and call them such. However, I think you will find you convincing only the convinced. If the goal is to reduce abortion and not just posture, accurate communication must be a priority. “The choir” needs no conversion.
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That might be true for society at large. But Catholics need to hear the truth. When fighting for justice and human rights we don’t water down the truth. Would you not speak the truth about say the KKK? Or would you water it down? The Democrat party is a corrupt organization that is in the pocket of the abortion lobby. The candidates do the bidding of planned parenthood. Their standard bearer is the abortion president. Catholics need to understand this. We need to use logic and reason. And be charitable. But not water down the truth

Ishii
 
stinkcat_14 said:
I would say the word synonym is wrong here. Abortion is strongly correlated with the democrat party. But to be a democrat does not mean you agree with every plank in the party platform. Also, as we have established voting for a democrat can be perfectly moral despite the problematic plank in the platform.
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How do you expect anyone to trust a Dem who claims to be prolife when they are willing to chose their party over prolife? I lost a lot of respect for the Dems when they stabbed the prolife crowd in the back.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
I would say the word synonym is wrong here. Abortion is strongly correlated with the democrat party. But to be a democrat does not mean you agree with every plank in the party platform. Also, as we have established voting for a democrat can be perfectly moral despite the problematic plank in the platform.
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To be a democrat means you have to be at home in a party which basically does the bidding of planned parenthood.

Ishii
 
Dawnia said:
What I meant is working within the two parties we have. The values of the parties reflect the values of their supporters. I think we are stuck with Dems & Repubs, so we might as well make the best of it.
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I am not ruling out a third party myself, but assuming you are right, and you may be, which do you think it easier, moving the Democrats away from their adamant pro-abortion stance, or broadening the appeal of Republicans to the point they dominate the political scene?
 
Dawnia said:
How do you expect anyone to trust a Dem who claims to be prolife when they are willing to chose their party over prolife?.
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FYI - This crosses the line to personal judgment, that is judging the heart. I am a little sensitive to this since someone did the same to me. Claiming that anyone here who is Democrat is choosing the party over life is much more than Mother Church ever taught and assumes a great deal that is not charitable. We do not know how much any of use are committed to opposing abortion.
 
pnewton said:
FYI - This crosses the line to personal judgment, that is judging the heart. I am a little sensitive to this since someone did the same to me. Claiming that anyone here who is Democrat is choosing the party over life is much more than Mother Church ever taught and assumes a great deal that is not charitable. We do not know how much any of use are committed to opposing abortion.
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Oh please. You are calling judgemental, the judging of actions - the willing membership in a party that is aligned with the abortion lobby, Planned Parenthood, has as its great leader, the most pro-abortion president in the history of this country. That is the reality of the Democrat party. And you accuse those who judge the ACTION of joining that party, of helping further that party’s hold on power, to be “judging the heart.” Well. You couldn’t be more wrong. I am not judging anyone’s heart (if in fact I am one of the targets of your post). I am judging the actions of one who calls themselves pro-life but joins the pro-abortion Democrat party. Would you not question the action of someone who claimed to be non-racist but joined the Dixiecrat party? Or the KKK?

Mother Church, pnewton, gives us moral precepts, guidelines and teaching. It is up to us to use our reason and logic to apply that teaching to current events. The Church isn’t going to tell us to leave a political party or join one. It is up to us to figure it out. I and others have been trying to use logic and reason to convince others that the Democrat party is not worthy of the votes of Catholics. Please, use logic and reason, not emotion.

Ishii
 
pnewton said:
I find the false dichotomy of this sentence offensive, “my case” versus that of the “pro-life voter”. Such a slanderous question can not even be answered. Such divisive and inaccurate rhetoric is part of the problem with presenting the case against legalized abortion. I am as opposed to abortion as any person can be, and in full agreement of the Church. What I disagree with is that “abortion = Democrat”. The strong link between the two and the correlation that exists still does not justify in treating them as synonyms.
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Abortion = Democrat? Well, if the shoe fits…

Honestly, I wonder why so many are so reluctant to acknowledge just how far the Democrat party has deteriorated into the party of abortion rights. (and a host of other blatantly non-negotiable anti-Catholic positions). pnewton, what kind of further support for abortion on the part of the Democrat party would need to happen for you to say, “yes, the Democrat party is no longer worthy of votes from Catholics” ? Another 100,000 legal abortions? 150,000 more abortions? :hmmm:

Why do some on this forum believe that to hold the Democrat party accountable for its support for abortion to be some kind of unfair characterization or even defamation? Is it because one or two guys claim to be Democrat AND pro-life? So that negates the 99% who are pro-abortion? Again, use some reason and logic, less emotion.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
To be a democrat means you have to be at home in a party which basically does the bidding of planned parenthood.

Ishii
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There are plenty of reasons not do be a democrat. But the ultimate decision is left to our prudential judgement.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
I would say the word synonym is wrong here. Abortion is strongly correlated with the democrat party. But to be a democrat does not mean you agree with every plank in the party platform. Also, as we have established voting for a democrat can be perfectly moral despite the problematic plank in the platform.
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Who has established that fasle statement besides individuals? Surely the Church has not.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
There are plenty of reasons not do be a democrat. But the ultimate decision is left to our prudential judgement.
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Yes… and considering what the Democrats stand for I would hope that Catholics would display sound, prudent judgement and conclude that the Democrat party is not worthy of support from Catholic voters. One’s judgement can be wrong, Stinkcat.

Ishii
 
Lapey said:
Who has established that fasle statement besides individuals? Surely the Church has not.
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Then present the Church teaching that says it is never morally acceptable under any circumstances to vote for a democrat. You do understand the meaning of can don’t you?

If I am wrong, then it would be immoral to vote for a pro-life democrat over a pro-abortion republican. I am open to being proven wrong, so let’s see your evidence.
 
ishii said:
Yes… and considering what the Democrats stand for I would hope that Catholics would display sound, prudent judgement and conclude that the Democrat party is not worthy of support from Catholic voters. One’s judgement can be wrong, Stinkcat.

Ishii
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Yes, your prudential judgement or my prudential judgement may be wrong. But to discern the correctness of prudential judgement we have to start with the teaching of the Church. The teaching of the Church is silent on parties but explicit on candidates. The is no way you can vote for a pro-abortion republican over a pro-life democrat, evil if the democrat party has an evil platform.
 
I read an article about a “pro-life” Democrat but the article pointed out that he endorsed Obama so it is questionable as to whether he really was.

But I’m not necessarily coming down on this politician.

You might be a most strident pro-life person but somewhere one might be able to point out something of a person that still could be connected to abortion, abortifacients, birth control and so on. Maybe a vote, it wasn’t directly for abortion but perhaps there is still a connection and so on.

Though to me, endorsing a person who is basically known as one of the most pro-choice presidents ever and a favorite of planned parenthood is not being “pro-life”.
 
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