Can Catholics Vote Democrat?

[estesbob]

It’s a FAIL to compare Abortion to Homosexual Marriage.

Both are cornerstones of the Culture of Death-A Catholic can not support either.

Also, believe it or not, being Pro Choice does not always mean Pro Abortion.

Another attempt to derail the thread into semantics argument.

 

[estesbob]

---

You forgot the “lol” after your “OUCH”. Maybe you weren’t joking or mocking the consequences of promoting evil? Should we play with words to distract from the reality and cry “foul”? The “politically incorrect” and “inclusive language” tools just cannot get the job done anymore. These terms are worn out. The word “consequences” has real meaning.

We have now moved to the “mock those who support Church teaching” phase of the Thread.

 

[steve_b]

I only got to the purgatory part of his account and I am confident that it is not real. My reason is that his account contradicts St. Catherine of Genoa’s account of Purgatory.

She went into way more detail than Fr Jose did. marys-touch.com/Saints/purgatory.htm

Fr Jose only said this much on purgatory

" Purgatory. Here too, there are seven degrees of suffering and unquenchable fire. But it is far less intense than hell and there was neither quarreling nor fighting. The main suffering of these souls is their separation from God. Some of those who are in Purgatory committed numerous mortal sins; but they were reconciled with God before their death. Even though these souls are suffering, they enjoy peace and the knowledge that one day they will see God face to face.

I had a chance to communicate with the souls in Purgatory. They asked me to pray for them and to tell the people to pray for them as well, so they can go to heaven quickly. When we pray for these souls we will receive their gratitude through their prayers and once they enter heaven their prayers become even more meritorious"

doing a word search on “fire” in St Catherines account, it doesn’t sound that much different. For example, as purification increases it’s like going through stages or levels of purification. IMV, each person describes it a bit differently but don’t contradict each other.

Since this is not a thread on purgatory we don’t want to derail things. I think we can agree, voting for a party whose platform is supporting the worst depravity of society as a right, is a sure fire way to end up in hell.

 

[J_Peterson]

She went into way more detail than Fr Jose did. marys-touch.com/Saints/purgatory.htm

Fr Jose only said this much on purgatory

" Purgatory. Here too, there are seven degrees of suffering and unquenchable fire. But it is far less intense than hell and there was neither quarreling nor fighting. The main suffering of these souls is their separation from God. Some of those who are in Purgatory committed numerous mortal sins; but they were reconciled with God before their death. Even though these souls are suffering, they enjoy peace and the knowledge that one day they will see God face to face.

I had a chance to communicate with the souls in Purgatory. They asked me to pray for them and to tell the people to pray for them as well, so they can go to heaven quickly. When we pray for these souls we will receive their gratitude through their prayers and once they enter heaven their prayers become even more meritorious"

doing a word search on “fire” in St Catherines account, it doesn’t sound that much different. For example, as purification increases it’s like going through stages or levels of purification. IMV, each person describes it a bit differently but don’t contradict each other.

Since this is not a thread on purgatory we don’t want to derail things. I think we can agree, voting for a party whose platform is supporting the worst depravity of society as a right, is a sure fire way to end up in hell.

I know it’s off topic but one last thing since St. Catherine is one of my favorite Saints. This is what St. Catherine had to say about the souls in Purgatory which is contradicted by the above. They don’t think of themselves anymore since they are in the presence of God:

The souls who are in Purgatory cannot, as I understand, choose but be
there, and this is by God’s ordinance who therein has done justly. They
cannot turn their thoughts back to themselves, nor can they say, "Such sins
I have committed for which I deserve to be here ", nor, “I would that I had
not committed them for then I would go now to Paradise”, nor, “That one
will leave sooner than I”, nor, “I will leave sooner than he”. They can
have neither of themselves nor of others any memory, whether of good or
evil, whence they would have greater pain than they suffer ordinarily. So
happy are they to be within God’s ordinance, and that He should do all
which pleases Him, as it pleases Him that in their greatest pain they
cannot think of themselves. They see only the working of the divine
goodness, which leads man to itself mercifully, so that he no longer sees
aught of the pain or good which may befall him. Nor would these souls be in
pure charity if they could see that pain or good. They cannot see that they
are in pain because of their sins; that sight they cannot hold in their
minds because in it there would be an active imperfection, which cannot be
where no actual sin can be.

 

[Mulligan2]

SMGS, Ringil: keep talking about the use of the term “Democrat party” while ignoring the anti-life policies of the Democrat party. An earlier poster mentioned how Democrat catholics are very uncomfortable discussing abortion and their party’s support for abortion. I think this attempt to derail the main topic of this thread is proof of that.

It doesn’t matter whether we say “Democratic” or “Democrat.” What matters is the policies and platform of that party. ** I indeed “hate” the policies of the Democrat party - but I am not a hater of people who are Democrats **- I think they are wrong.

Ishii

Your comments bring to mind the ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ concept.

However, based on the language that is often used to communicate this hate (your word, not mine), your comments from above regarding Democratic voters comes across as a distinction without a difference.

 

[ishii]

Your comments bring to mind the ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ concept.

However, based on the language that is often used to communicate this hate (your word, not mine), your comments from above regarding Democratic voters comes across as a distinction without a difference.

Can you be specific? Which comments are you referring to which come across as hateful of people?

Ishii

 

[_Abyssinia]

I am concerned about the issues of life and of the wrong of gay marriage.

And I would disagree that “it doesn’t matter”. Having a genuine discussion depends on a basic level of civility- well for me it does. I want folks standing on their own feet- not making constancy digs at a portion of the subject- this undermines the basics of the discussion.

You may desire to steer this discussion as some kind of captain of a ship, but it doesn’t work that way. No one is the arbiter here- except the mods.

At the same time I believe it is possible to state issues which touch on the quality of a discussion.

Should I just “drop it” when folks continue to make posts I disagree with- let myself be “shouted down”?

Shouldn’t we be able to stick to an issue until we are understood?

And to end the discussion of the term Democrat for me at least. Folks just need to either use the proper terms, or at least continue to use it and admit that the usage of “democrat” is a little slight and little jab at the Party. I can respect that- respect honesty.

Admit that- it’s honest. It’s well documented. It’s not paranoia.

What proportionate reasons do you think there is to vote for a pro-choice candidate if there is a pro life alternative candidate?

 

[SMGS127]

Both are cornerstones of the Culture of Death-A Catholic can not support either.

Oh please. Same-sex marriage has nothing to do with the culture of death that our Popes have discussed. They very clearly reference abortion and lead-causers of abortion (IVF, etc.) as the culture of death, not homosexuality. You are contradicting your own Pope here.

 

[Havard]

Oh please. Same-sex marriage has nothing to do with the culture of death that our Popes have discussed. They very clearly reference abortion and lead-causers of abortion (IVF, etc.) as the culture of death, not homosexuality. You are contradicting your own Pope here.

I don’t see how one could read Evangelium Vitae and come to that conclusion.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

Also, believe it or not, being Pro Choice does not always mean Pro Abortion.

Please explain the distinction, if there is one.

 

[J_Peterson]

Please explain the distinction, if there is one.

I think they are referring to people who won’t have an abortion themselves but respect the the rights of others to have an abortion. It’s not pro-abortion since pro-abortion implies that the person sees abortion is a good thing. Pro-Choice can have more nuance. For instance you can still see abortion as a problem but still believe that it’s necessary.

Pro-choice is really about having the option, even if you choose never to use it. Pro-abortion folks seek to normalize it and remove the stigma attached to it. I do see more and more pro-abortion sentiment lately.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

I think they are referring to people who won’t have an abortion themselves but respect the the rights of others to have an abortion. It’s not pro-abortion since pro-abortion implies that the person sees abortion is a good thing. Pro-Choice can have more nuance. For instance you can still see abortion as a problem but still believe that it’s necessary.

Pro-choice is really about having the option, even if you choose never to use it. Pro-abortion folks seek to normalize it and remove the stigma attached to it. I do see more and more pro-abortion sentiment lately.

Ah, so the argument is, “I’d never savagely tear the arms and legs off of a baby, but if someone else wants to do that, who am I to judge?”

Wait, no, I’m still not seeing the distinction. They still want the barbarism to be legal, so if they oppose abortion at all, it’s not in any meaningful sense. It still draws a moral equivalence between cutting off a living child’s head with a pair of dull scissors and not doing so by reducing it to a personal choice. This position still sees the act of someone’s brains being sucked out with a vacuum tube or their skin being burnt with caustic chemicals until they die as acceptable by society.

If you’re not against this brutality in all cases, you’re for this brutality in some cases, which makes you pro abortion. There’s no way around it.

 

[ishii]

I am concerned about the issues of life and of the wrong of gay marriage.

And I would disagree that “it doesn’t matter”. Having a genuine discussion depends on a basic level of civility- well for me it does. I want folks standing on their own feet- not making constancy digs at a portion of the subject- this undermines the basics of the discussion.

You may desire to steer this discussion as some kind of captain of a ship, but it doesn’t work that way. No one is the arbiter here- except the mods.

At the same time I believe it is possible to state issues which touch on the quality of a discussion.

Should I just “drop it” when folks continue to make posts I disagree with- let myself be “shouted down”?

Shouldn’t we be able to stick to an issue until we are understood?

And to end the discussion of the term Democrat for me at least. Folks just need to either use the proper terms, or at least continue to use it and admit that the usage of “democrat” is a little slight and little jab at the Party. I can respect that- respect honesty.

Admit that- it’s honest. It’s well documented. It’s not paranoia.

Ringil, your fixation with how people spell “Democrat party” is easily perceived as an attempt to derail the thread, change the subject, or otherwise avoid discussing the issue which is, “should Catholics vote Democrat in light of what the party stands for.” While I will trust that it wasn’t your intention - I do think that we should stick with the topic. And it bothers me that you would fixate on such a minor detail as the spelling to the neglect of more important things.

I don’t believe “I’ve steered the ship” so much as give reasons why a Catholic ought not to vote for a Democrat. If I’ve done otherwise perhaps you could point where.

Ishii

 

[ringil]

Ringil, your fixation with how people spell “Democrat party” is easily perceived as an attempt to derail the thread, change the subject, or otherwise avoid discussing the issue which is, “should Catholics vote Democrat in light of what the party stands for.” While I will trust that it wasn’t your intention - I do think that we should stick with the topic. And it bothers me that you would fixate on such a minor detail as the spelling to the neglect of more important things.

I don’t believe “I’ve steered the ship” so much as give reasons why a Catholic ought not to vote for a Democrat. If I’ve done otherwise perhaps you could point where.

Ishii

You bypassed and disregarded the points of my post.

 

[ishii]

You bypassed and disregarded the points of my post.

Now you know how I feel.

 

[estesbob]

I think they are referring to people who won’t have an abortion themselves but respect the the rights of others to have an abortion. It’s not pro-abortion since pro-abortion implies that the person sees abortion is a good thing. Pro-Choice can have more nuance. For instance you can still see abortion as a problem but still believe that it’s necessary.

Pro-choice is really about having the option, even if you choose never to use it. Pro-abortion folks seek to normalize it and remove the stigma attached to it. I do see more and more pro-abortion sentiment lately.

Yes “pro choice” has more “nuance” than abortion Just as “reproductive” rights sounds better than abortion and "product of conception " is preferable to “baby”. Those who support abortion go to great lengths to use a vocabulary of euphemisms to try and rationalize the abject evil they support

 

[estesbob]

Now you know how I feel.

The point was to derail the thread. We should always keep in mind-if we don’t feed them they will go away.

 

[ishii]

I  am concerned about the issues of life and of the wrong of gay marriage. .

I would argue that anyone who votes Democrat isn’t concerned enough. Or has a strange way of displaying that concern.

And I would disagree that “it doesn’t matter”. Having a genuine discussion depends on a basic level of civility- well for me it does. I want folks standing on their own feet- not making constancy digs at a portion of the subject- this undermines the basics of the discussion. .

Spelling the Democrat party a certain way shouldn’t bother you so much that you’d fixate on it to the extent that you do.

You may desire to steer this discussion as some kind of captain of a ship, but it doesn’t work that way. No one is the arbiter here- except the mods. .

I’m just trying to stay on topic: “should Catholics vote Democrat?” That is the topic, not the spelling of the Democrat party.

At the same time I believe it is possible to state issues which touch on the quality of a discussion. .

Fine. But to dwell on these issues to the extent you do risks derailing the thread.

Should I just “drop it” when folks continue to make posts I disagree with- let myself be “shouted down”? .

Depends on the nature of the post. If its about spelling and perceived “digs” at your party, then make your statement and then get back on topic. To fixate on it is to avoid dealing with the topic.

Shouldn’t we be able to stick to an issue until we are understood? .

We understand you from the beginning. You don’t like it when people say “Democrat party” instead you want us to say “Democratic party.” Got it. Let’s move on and discuss if Catholics should vote for the Democrat party.

And to end the discussion of the term Democrat for me at least. Folks just need to either use the proper terms, or at least continue to use it and admit that the usage of “democrat” is a little slight and little jab at the Party. I can respect that- respect honesty. .

Folks disagree on what the proper term is. I don’t believe you are the arbiter of that.

Ishii

 

[Dawnia]

I think they are referring to people who won’t have an abortion themselves but respect the the rights of others to have an abortion. It’s not pro-abortion since pro-abortion implies that the person sees abortion is a good thing. Pro-Choice can have more nuance. For instance you can still see abortion as a problem but still believe that it’s necessary.

Pro-choice is really about having the option, even if you choose never to use it. Pro-abortion folks seek to normalize it and remove the stigma attached to it. I do see more and more pro-abortion sentiment lately.

That’s a distinction without a difference. Someone who is indifferent to the deaths of children isn’t any more moral than someone supporting those deaths if they are both fighting to allow the deaths to happen.

 

[Mulligan2]

The point was to derail the thread. We should always keep in mind-if we don’t feed them they will go away.

You seriously believe ringil was trying to derail the thread?

This thread has over 100 pages to it - the majority of which consist of belittling and condemning your fellow Catholics who do not share your political viewpoints. The comments by ringil are legitimate. What is wrong with pointing out the denigrating language someone is using, and politely asking them to refrain?