Can Catholics Vote Democrat?

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ringil said:
Instead of reducing the discussion down to.

Abortion and Same Sex Marriage is wrong- Democrats support Abortion and Same Sex Marriage thus you cannot vote for any democrat.

I am glad that we have a minority or folks around here who are not tied to right-wing politics.

Folks who wont tolerate posters using Abortion and Same Sex Marriage as a cudgel to drawn out discussion.

And I don’t forget that most of the vociferous posters here not only support the stance of the GOP on issues of life- which is good- but also support the entire foundation of right-wing political thinking.

The agenda to scare (bringing up sin, purgatory, judgement), control and seek to constrict the discussion into narrow lane of discourse, and distort, is crystal clear as an effort to convince readers to vote for the GOP.
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Excuse #16 and a little of #4.

EXCUSES FOR VOTING FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS
  1. National Republicans aren’t “really” pro-life, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  2. Specific candidate isn’t “really” pro-life, or I don’t believe his supposed change of belief, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  3. My deacon/priest/bishop/cardinal told me or wrote me a letter telling me it was okay to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  4. I’m not a one-issue voter, so I can ignore the Church’s teaching and vote for the virulently pro-abortion politician.
  5. Republicans (at any level) have not passed enough pro-life laws (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  6. Republicans (at any level) have not had enough success on pro-life issues (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  7. Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land even though most Supreme Court justices were appointed by the Republicans, therefore Republicans aren’t serious about abortion, so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  8. I found a Church document that mentioned proportionate reasons in voting, so I personally judged support for a higher minimum wage (or other social justice cause) was on equal footing with abortion, and I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  9. I personally believe that Democratic policies will reduce abortions, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  10. We can’t do anything about abortion until we change the hearts and minds of the people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  11. You can’t legislate morality, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  12. People will still have abortions even if you make them illegal, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  13. We can’t end abortion until we address the root causes, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  14. I can’t impose my beliefs on other people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  15. There isn’t any difference between the parties, so it is okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  16. The Pro-Life movement is in the tank for the Republican party (even though all pro-life legislation has had the overwhelming support of Republicans and overwhelming opposition from Democrats), so it’s okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
 
zz912 said:
No. And even if your personal vindictive feelings towards them and their motives were true, it STILL would not be proportionate reason for a Catholic to vote for a Demcrat.
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Let me ask you this, if the republican were fully pro-abortion and the democrat was pro-life, would that be sufficient proportionate reason to vote for democrat? If the answer is yes, please back up your answer with Church teaching.
 
Lapey said:
voting for a democrat = not an option for me as long as the party as a whole supports evil
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That is your prudential judgement, Church teaching does not demand this behavior. In 99% of cases you will probably be fine in accordance with Church teaching with such a strategy. In the case where a pro-life dem runs against a pro-abortion repub then while you may not be forced to vote for a dem (although you cannot vote for the repub) it certainly would be a morally licit choice to vote for the dem.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Let me ask you this, if the republican were fully pro-abortion and the democrat was pro-life, would that be sufficient proportionate reason to vote for democrat? If the answer is yes, please back up your answer with Church teaching.
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This is the problem. The “pro-life” Democrat is going to vote into power the pro-abortion party. Now using your own standard that you have used to judge Romney in this thread, you are REQUIRED by intellectual honesty to admit the Democrat is NOT pro-life. I’ll thank you in advance for agreeing with me, as I know you will, because you are always looking for specificity, clarity, and correctness.

Now if there was a situation where the Democrat was not going to vote into power his/her party, or their elected office did not vote into power their party, or their vote was in no way shape or form putting the Democratic Party into power, then it would be appropriate to vote for the Democrat. But this is a VERY hard hurdle to overcome.
 
ringil said:
Instead of reducing the discussion down to.

Abortion and Same Sex Marriage is wrong- Democrats support Abortion and Same Sex Marriage thus you cannot vote for any democrat.

I am glad that we have a minority or folks around here who are not tied to right-wing politics.

Folks who wont tolerate posters using Abortion and Same Sex Marriage as a cudgel to drawn out discussion.

And I don’t forget that most of the vociferous posters here not only support the stance of the GOP on issues of life- which is good- but also support the entire foundation of right-wing political thinking.

The agenda to scare (bringing up sin, purgatory, judgement), control and seek to constrict the discussion into narrow lane of discourse, and distort, is crystal clear as an effort to convince readers to vote for the GOP.
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The point is exactly what you say it shouldn’t be. One party supports intrinsic evils, while the other does not. The bottom line question remains, can a Catholic in good standing, with a properly and fully formed conscience support intrinsic evil; i.e. the Democratic Party’s platform? The answer is simply, not without cooperation in that evil. I’ll also repeat this statement, if you want to place the state of your soul in jeopardy by gambling on what level of cooperation it is, be my guess. “As for me and my family, we will serve the Lord”

Also, being completely and uncompromising on the issues of abortion are not right-winged ideologies. This is centrists because it is in fact what Mother Church states we must do. Intrinsic evil means it is NEVER acceptable. We must always fight for the most vulnerable among us; there are none more innocent and vulnerable than the unborn.

I guess I am one of the “vociferous” posters and I do agree with the GOP’s stance on the life issues, but I strenuously disagree on many other issues; immigration and capital punishment being two big ones in my book but not on the same level as abortion. There are none on that level. By the way, isn’t purgatory, sin, and judgment part of the reality of our faith?
 
zz912 said:
Excuse #16 and a little of #4.

EXCUSES FOR VOTING FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS
  1. National Republicans aren’t “really” pro-life, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  2. Specific candidate isn’t “really” pro-life, or I don’t believe his supposed change of belief, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  3. My deacon/priest/bishop/cardinal told me or wrote me a letter telling me it was okay to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  4. I’m not a one-issue voter, so I can ignore the Church’s teaching and vote for the virulently pro-abortion politician.
  5. Republicans (at any level) have not passed enough pro-life laws (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  6. Republicans (at any level) have not had enough success on pro-life issues (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  7. Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land even though most Supreme Court justices were appointed by the Republicans, therefore Republicans aren’t serious about abortion, so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  8. I found a Church document that mentioned proportionate reasons in voting, so I personally judged support for a higher minimum wage (or other social justice cause) was on equal footing with abortion, and I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  9. I personally believe that Democratic policies will reduce abortions, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  10. We can’t do anything about abortion until we change the hearts and minds of the people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  11. You can’t legislate morality, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  12. People will still have abortions even if you make them illegal, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  13. We can’t end abortion until we address the root causes, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  14. I can’t impose my beliefs on other people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  15. There isn’t any difference between the parties, so it is okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  16. The Pro-Life movement is in the tank for the Republican party (even though all pro-life legislation has had the overwhelming support of Republicans and overwhelming opposition from Democrats), so it’s okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
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That’s nice that you put together a little list.
 
zz912 said:
This is the problem. The “pro-life” Democrat is going to vote into power the pro-abortion party. Now using your own standard that you have used to judge Romney in this thread, you are REQUIRED by intellectual honesty to admit the Democrat is NOT pro-life. I’ll thank you in advance for agreeing with me, as I know you will, because you are always looking for specificity, clarity, and correctness.

Now if there was a situation where the Democrat was not going to vote into power his/her party, or their elected office did not vote into power their party, or their vote was in no way shape or form putting the Democratic Party into power, then it would be appropriate to vote for the Democrat. But this is a VERY hard hurdle to overcome.
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This is simply your prudential judgment. You have no authority to direct your cognitive construction onto other potential voters.

I’ts just your personal interpretation.
 
This website (written in 2008) makes very good points about Republican reality vs. promises:

constitutionpartyva.com/fears.php

Fear of Court Appointments

Conservatives fear that an opportunity to appoint conservative judges will be lost if they don’t vote for the “more viable” major party candidate. However, Republican Supreme Court appointees gave the country Roe v. Wade and then a court of eight GOP-appointed judges (five by Reagan and Bush) strengthened it in 1992. The same court has rendered many other liberal rulings. Future appointments promise to be no better.

The Republican-led Senate confirmation rate of federal judges has been dismal. Clinton’s 357 judges so far (with an “opposition” Senate for six years) leave him just 21 shy of Reagan’s two-term appointment record, while Reagan had a Senate of his own party for only two years. Since becoming the majority, Republicans have handed Clinton a 228-1 judicial appointment run. Republicans demonstrate their low value of court appointments by repeatedly using multiple court confirmations as bargaining chips in exchange for positions of minor bureaucratic nominations (yes, nominations, not guaranteed confirmations). The Senate confirmed ultra-liberal and pro-abort Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg by a vote of 97–0. Not a single “no” vote could be mustered from the most “conservative” GOP senators!

Fear of the Truth

Conservatives are loathe to believe the obvious – their party has deserted them. They are like an abused wife who cannot leave her husband because he might commit suicide and it would be “her fault.” That if only he had the right conditions he would improve his behavior.

Conservatives have been conditioned to believe the lie that if only the GOP controlled both Congress and the White House, things would be so much different, that suddenly they would begin to hold legislation to a constitutional standard and hold each other accountable to their platform (now, that hope has been proven vain). To believe that the GOP truly has conservative values and not just a conservative (but ignored) platform, one must never look at the record of their actions.

This statement does not refer to the times when the GOP has passively stood by as the liberal agenda was enacted. It sees behind those few small victories that are given to conservatives as bones to keep them complacent. This statement is about active collaboration with liberals. This fear of the truth permeates even those who make a profession of research. The National Right to Life supported Senator Bob Dole, yet he never once voted against a pro-abortion Supreme Court nominee. Twenty-eight Republicans who the National Right to Life Committee says voted 100% pro-life in 1999 supported Mary McLaughlin to the U.S. District Court. She received a 1998 award from the ACLU for her pro-abortion activism.

Following are just a few examples which are so indicative of the real values of the GOP that to consider the GOP a morally acceptable option for governing requires one to refuse to believe the truth.

Conservatives are supposed to be mollified by the GOP’s bringing the ban on Partial Birth Abortions to vote repeatedly. What we are conveniently NOT reminded of is that each time the PBA ban has failed to override the Clinton vetoes, the margin has been less than the number of Republicans voting with the President. In other words, had the Republicans made their members toe the line on this most extreme example of barbarism, it would have passed.

Not only would the GOP not demand adherence to the party platform on this issue, but the GOP refused to stop sending campaign donations to candidates who supported PBA (the vote wasn’t even close). Henry Hyde’s support of G. W. Bush is supposed to allay fear that Bush may be no more pro-life than his father, but Hyde’s reputation as a solid pro-lifer was used to keep money flowing to pro-abort GOPers.

Does anyone think G. W. Bush is more conservative than Reagan (who despite his pro-life rhetoric nominated two pro-abort judges to the Supreme Court)? Bush does not believe that unborn babies have a right to life. He says he opposes abortion except in cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother. In other words, who lives and who dies is a political decision. There is not a right to life in the mind or heart of Bush, who opposed fellow Texan Tim Lambert’s resolution to defund PBA candidates.
 
numberonefan said:
I have been contemplating this issue myself. I have always voted republican. I converted to Catholicism 2 years ago and the more I learn the more I lean towards Democrats views on social justice.
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Always voted Republican, but the rest of your post reads like Democratic talking points?
numberonefan said:
I do not think you can vote only on abortion and gay marriage because the republican party does such a bad job on so many other issues. I also believe the republican party is the party of greed and selfishness and it drives so much of their policy.
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That’s excuse #4 (see below), with some unchristian impugning of others’ intentions mixed in.
numberonefan said:
I would argue the republican party’s position on social justice issues regarding people in poverty, illegal immigrants, refugees, race are all inferior to the democratic party** and further from Catholic teaching**. Their position on Israel and Gaza for instance is quite disturbing and I think in contradiction to their pro-life position if you include any time post birth.
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This is PATENTLY untrue. Catholic teaching does NOT require charity and assistance for the poor to be govt run and controlled. In fact, a good argument can be made that the opposite is true. Catholic teaching allows for variety of belief in how best to address social justice issues. Your disagreement with Republican views on how to address them does NOT mean the Republicans are further from Catholic teaching.
numberonefan said:
The other problem with voting based solely on pro-life is that not much actually gets done in this area.
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Excuse #6 (see below).
numberonefan said:
I have no confidence that abortion will ever be illegal again. I wish that there would be more focus on the positives of pregnancy and children rather than being so negative and opposite of your opponent. This ties into the social justice issues in the above paragraph.
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Excuse #13

EXCUSES FOR VOTING FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS
  1. National Republicans aren’t “really” pro-life, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  2. Specific candidate isn’t “really” pro-life, or I don’t believe his supposed change of belief, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  3. My deacon/priest/bishop/cardinal told me or wrote me a letter telling me it was okay to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  4. I’m not a one-issue voter, so I can ignore the Church’s teaching and vote for the virulently pro-abortion politician.
  5. Republicans (at any level) have not passed enough pro-life laws (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  6. Republicans (at any level) have not had enough success on pro-life issues (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  7. Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land even though most Supreme Court justices were appointed by the Republicans, therefore Republicans aren’t serious about abortion, so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  8. I found a Church document that mentioned proportionate reasons in voting, so I personally judged support for a higher minimum wage (or other social justice cause) was on equal footing with abortion, and I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  9. I personally believe that Democratic policies will reduce abortions, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  10. We can’t do anything about abortion until we change the hearts and minds of the people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  11. You can’t legislate morality, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  12. People will still have abortions even if you make them illegal, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  13. We can’t end abortion until we address the root causes, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  14. I can’t impose my beliefs on other people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  15. There isn’t any difference between the parties, so it is okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  16. The Pro-Life movement is in the tank for the Republican party (even though all pro-life legislation has had the overwhelming support of Republicans and overwhelming opposition from Democrats), so it’s okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
 
theCrow said:
Now answer my question: Can we agree that the Republican party has a reputation and stigma of being Anti-Gay, Anti-Woman, Anti-Poor, and Anti-Immigrant.

Yes or No

Choose one.

I choose Yes, which is why I vote Democrat.
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I forgot to answer your question; NO.

If you watch MSNBC or any of the other left leaning networks you will believe what you believe, it’s all you hear. But where is the proof of support of these evils? It exists nowhere but in the propaganda of the main stream media for the last 50 years or more.

The word “reputation” as defined by Merriam Webster means “the common opinion that people have about someone or something : the way in which people think of someone or something”.

It neither states as fact nor implies that the reputation is accurate. So I would clarity my “NO”. According to the perceived “reputation” because of the history of distortions over the last decades of what the party stands for, I would say yes the Republican Party has that reputation. Based on reality and truth, the answer is NO. The republican Party is not anti-gay, women, etc. you do not have to look any further than the “war on women” accusations promulgated by the Dems and repeated still to this day by the main stream media.
 
In addition to my previous post:

I have morally grave reasons to vote for a pro-life candidate over a pro-choice candidate only if I can trust that s/he is serious about his/her stance and that in practice, not just in theory, s/he will (be able to) do something about it. From past evidence I have no reason to trust the Republican Party on much, and certainly not on the issue of abortion, at least not on the federal level (actions on the state level in some states are a different matter).

Republican-appointed Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts confirmation hearing:

Link:
gpo.gov:80/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-108shrg92548/html/CHRG-108shrg92548.htm

Senator Durbin. Understood. I have been an attorney,
represented a client, sometimes argued a position that I did
not necessarily buy, personally. And so I am asking you today
what is your position on Roe v. Wade?
**Mr. Roberts. I don’t–Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the
land. **It is not–it’s a little more than settled. It was
reaffirmed in the face of a challenge that it should be
overruled in the Casey decision. Accordingly, it’s the settled
law of the land. There’s nothing in my personal views that
would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that
precedent, as well as Casey.

Indeed, in Casey a Supreme Court with eight out of nine Republican-appointed justices has in effect re-affirmed Roe v. Wade. So if a Supreme Court with eight Republican-appointed justices does not overturn Wade, on what rational grounds should I hope that the next few conservative appointments will change that? Give me a break, don’t be fooled folks!

Inaction and lying by pro-life politicians (and inaction by appointed Supreme Court justices) alone could be morally grave reasons, and proportionate reasons, enough to neutralize the theoretically morally grave reasons of not voting for a pro-choice candidate, especially when you do not vote for that candidate because of the pro-choice stance (only the ‘because of’ would be formal cooperation with evil, c.f. Cardinal Ratzinger, USCCB).
 
zz912 said:
Easy to do when you see the same excuses trotted out justifying opposing Church teaching. 👍
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There is no moral teaching of the Church that demands that I vote for candidates or parties that only pay lip service to issues *), so that people like you and others here are fooled into voting for them.
*) for abortion, see above posts on the Republican Party on the federal level. The actions of the Republican Party on the state level are a different matter.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
That is your prudential judgement, Church teaching does not demand this behavior. In 99% of cases you will probably be fine in accordance with Church teaching with such a strategy. In the case where a pro-life dem runs against a pro-abortion repub then while you may not be forced to vote for a dem (although you cannot vote for the repub)** it certainly would be a morally licit choice to vote for the dem**.
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No it would not, if the vote for the dem would place the chance of putting the party as a whole in power; which in fact would promulgate the intrinsic evils in the platform.

The morally correct answer may be to not vote or vote for a third party candidate. If both candidates were pro-abortion I would not vote for the dem because of his/her party’s earned reputation and its platform’s support of evil.

Either way, I would not see the choice of the dem as an option because of the bigger picture. But again, that does not mean I would default back to the rep. Any candidate getting my Catholic vote will have to earn it; and that includes what his/her affiliation to a party platform brings.
 
pnewton said:
The one politician that I know that kind of started this whole “pro-life Democrat” stuff is also a very spiritual Catholic. ** If one can make assumptions of another based on the party one belongs to, why not consider the faith one holds?** I would say the only thing that prevents this is too many put their party before their faith and cannot imagine anyone being different.
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Too many abortion-supporting “Catholic” politicians.

As evidenced in this thread, there are many who claim to be Catholic, who perform mental gymnastics to ignore Church teaching.
 
Al_Moritz said:
There is no moral teaching of the Church that demands that I vote for candidates or parties that only pay lip service to issues *), so that people like you and others here are fooled into voting for them.
*) for abortion, see above posts on the Republican Party on the federal level. The actions of the Republican Party on the state level are a different matter.
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Excuse #1

EXCUSES FOR VOTING FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS
  1. National Republicans aren’t “really” pro-life, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  2. Specific candidate isn’t “really” pro-life, or I don’t believe his supposed change of belief, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  3. My deacon/priest/bishop/cardinal told me or wrote me a letter telling me it was okay to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  4. I’m not a one-issue voter, so I can ignore the Church’s teaching and vote for the virulently pro-abortion politician.
  5. Republicans (at any level) have not passed enough pro-life laws (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  6. Republicans (at any level) have not had enough success on pro-life issues (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  7. Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land even though most Supreme Court justices were appointed by the Republicans, therefore Republicans aren’t serious about abortion, so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  8. I found a Church document that mentioned proportionate reasons in voting, so I personally judged support for a higher minimum wage (or other social justice cause) was on equal footing with abortion, and I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
  9. I personally believe that Democratic policies will reduce abortions, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  10. We can’t do anything about abortion until we change the hearts and minds of the people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  11. You can’t legislate morality, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  12. People will still have abortions even if you make them illegal, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  13. We can’t end abortion until we address the root causes, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  14. I can’t impose my beliefs on other people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
  15. There isn’t any difference between the parties, so it is okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
  16. The Pro-Life movement is in the tank for the Republican party (even though all pro-life legislation has had the overwhelming support of Republicans and overwhelming opposition from Democrats), so it’s okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
 
JorduSpeaks said:
Well, the Democratic party also supports gun control. It is an unequivocal fact that gun control places a burdensome limitation on a woman’s personal autonomy in the use of her body to end the life of another person.

Now, murder of a post-natal individual is illegal in all fifty states, but one must consent that having easy, legal access to a gun would enable a woman to commit murder in a way that is easier, more convenient, and most importantly exposes the woman committing the murder to less risk of personal bodily injury. Why, the Democratic party must be in favor of back-alley stabbings, probably with coat hangers.

I should also point out that the Democratic party (like the Republican party, for what it’s worth) has consistently failed to force employers to provide the women working for them with safe, effective firearms and any necessary training. I’d say this is probably because they are anti-woman.
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Bravo. (insert slow golf clap) 👍
 
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