Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

[zeland]

In 1985, I attended the first annual “Church Teaches Forum” which took place in Louisville, Kentucky. The keynote speaker at this event was Francis Cardinal Arinze. He gave an address to a 1,800 plus audience. One item he talked on was the subject of whether Catholics, who no longer attend Mass on Sunday, or who have left the Church for a non-Catholic religion, can be saved, if they do not return to the Catholic Church. He said: “The Catholic Church is not a free club; it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ. Those who have known her, and left her, will not be saved”.

At first, this may sound like a strong or harsh statement, so let’s look at the mechanics of the Cardinal’s words in a step by step manner. I will start with a little background info.

From the first and third Commandment, (1st. I am the Lord, your God. You shall not have other gods besides me; 3rd. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day), we see that we are commanded to worship the One True God. This is a serious obligation. However, these two commandments do not tell us how we are to worship God.

At the Last Supper, Christ instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and commanded the Apostles to “do this in memory of Me” (Luke 22:19). So the Mass is the manner, which the Lord has prescribed, for us to worship Him. The Mass is also the channel by which the merits and graces that Christ won for us on the cross, are transmitted to us, throughout time, through Holy Communion.

As is stated above, the obligation to worship the Lord is a serious one, so the Church obliges us to attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days under pain of serious (mortal) sin (this is the “how” mentioned above). Mortal means a sin causing the death of the soul, as opposed to a venial sin which does not totally deprive a person of God’s saving grace (see 1 John 5:16). The Mass is the highest form of worship and the most powerful prayer we can offer to God. So intentionally missing Mass on any of the above mentioned days is a mortal sin.

Now some will say: “Where does the Church get the authority to make such a statement”? That authority comes directly from Christ! In Matthew 16:19, our Lord says to Peter: “I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”. Here, our Lord gives to Peter, as the head of His Church – the Office of Pope – the authority to make rules and regulations to govern the Church. You will note that this is an absolute authority; there were no conditions, exceptions or exclusions in our Lords commission to Peter.

It should also be noted, that this authority was not given to Peter personally as an individual, but to the office which Peter would represent, the office of the Pope (also referred to as “The Chair of Peter”). In Matthew 18:18 our lord again gives this same authority to all the apostles as a group. This authority and that given to Peter is passed on to their successors (Apostolic Succession - 2 Timothy 2:2.), and is exercised when the bishops come together for a Church Council.

So what happens when a person decides to leave the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic religion? Well the first Sunday, and each Sunday thereafter that they miss Mass, they commit a serious sin

Now, some will say that: “Well I left the Catholic Church, so their rules no longer apply to me – right?” “WRONG”! All baptized Catholics must die within the Church. As Cardinal Arinze said above, the Catholic Church is NOT a free club where we come and go as we please. When a person is baptized a Catholic, a special spiritual indelible mark is placed on their soul, which in fact makes their soul the property of the Catholic Church so to speak. This is why the devils in hell can tell a Catholic soul from a non-Catholic one. It is the same idea as when a Catholic man is ordained to the Priesthood. The Sacrament of Holy orders puts an indelible mark on his soul which differentiates him from a Catholic layman. In hell, the devils know which Catholics were priests or bishops.

Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

To be saved, these individuals must return to the Church, go to the Sacrament of Confession, and become a practicing Catholic again. I might add a side note here. There are about 40 verses (OT & NT) in scripture that deal with or prefigure Christ’s institution of the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). See John 20: 19-23 for a start.

To cast aside the “pearl of great price” is a serious error - and sin. The pearl of great price is the Catholic Faith, “the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH” - the “fullness of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and handed down throughout the ages by and through the Catholic Church.

Pray to know the truth while there is still time, for at the moment of death, the time of grace will have passed – the time of Justice will have come. Let us do now what, on the Day of Judgment, we would then wish we would have done!

God bless

References

Luther and the Bible - Dr. David Anders. Dr. Anders was a Presbyterian Bible scholar who did his PhD. Studies in Reformation History.

youtu.be/R5NT32Y-Mrk

.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I have worried about this question a lot, as it pertains to several of my close family members. I don’t think we can know the answer for sure, but it is serious and disturbing possibility even to think of. If the Church really believes this, we should be doing everything in our power to bring former Catholics back into the fold.

But what about people who are led astray into other (non-Catholic) Christian sects because they truly thought in their heart that it was the right thing to do and that they were following God by doing so? If they were poorly catechized, as so many were, it is less their fault than the fault of those whose responsibility it was to form them in the faith. Such people are not willfully turning away from God but were deceived. I think of my sweet grandmother who is in her mid-eighties and is one of the kindest, most unselfish people I know. She was raised Catholic but was talked into leaving the Church by other family members and has been attending a Protestant church for decades now.

Have any of you had any success in bringing family or friends back to the Church, especially if they have been gone for many years and have not thought much about the Church since leaving it? (Of course I know that it is the Holy Spirit that ultimately does the work.)

 

[EasterJoy]

I’d read what the Catechism teaches about it (CCC 2087-2089), including this: The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it.

Then I’d consider what the Church teaches about suicide, which we know is a mortal sin:
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

If God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance for someone who commits suicide, someone who chooses to make their final act on this earth an act gravely contrary to the just love of self, neighbor, and God, then of course God can provide the means for someone who is guilty of schism, heresy, or even apostasy to be saved.

That does not mean there is salvation outside the Church. It means there are ways to salvation that we in the Church aren’t privy to in this life. Those souls saved in spite of not seeming to us to belong to the Church will belong to the Church Triumphant after death and for eternity. All of the saved will.

Obviously, the easiest path into the Church for someone whose parents and pastors have raised them in the faith is to diligently remain in the Church and to avail oneself of the sacraments and the life of the Church over the course of a lifetime. Of course our faith is a great treasure given as the surest path to salvation, and of course we ought to hope that every soul comes to the Church.

That does not mean, however, that there will not be some saved at the last moment or that it is impossible to be saved even without the awareness of those attendant at one’s death. God has put no limits like that on Himself, and we may not put that limit on God.

 

[fbl9]

I think the dividing line is the knowing part. There is a difference between knowing of something and actually knowing something. ie; yes i know but…

 

[twf]

Leaving the Church is a grave sin. Yet as with any grave sin, only God knows whether it is, for a particular individual, mortal…grave matter? Yes. Full consent of the will and full knowledge? Only God knows.

 

[zeland]

I think the dividing line is the knowing part. There is a difference between knowing of something and actually knowing something. ie; yes i know but…

Yes - the “knowing” is the key, and at the end of the day, only God can make that final judgement.

The main problem is the poor instruction many Catholics have had since Vatican II. We all need to pray and try to inform our Catholic friends and relatives of the truths of the Church.

Anyone who wants to, please feel free to copy my post and pass it on. God bless.

Zeland

 

[dnu]

You’ll likely find that those who have left the Church or the Christian faith altogether aren’t too concerned by the Churches teaching on this issue.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I think whether we want to admit it or not there must be thousands of people passing through Catholic education and sacraments without really knowing the faith. I don’t think there are simple solutions.

 

[PJM]

In 1985, I attended the first annual “Church Teaches Forum” which took place in Louisville, Kentucky. The keynote speaker at this event was Francis Cardinal Arinze. He gave an address to a 1,800 plus audience. One item he talked on was the subject of whether Catholics, who no longer attend Mass on Sunday, or who have left the Church for a non-Catholic religion, can be saved, if they do not return to the Catholic Church. He said: “The Catholic Church is not a free club; it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ. Those who have known her, and left her, will not be saved”

I was in the audience

Heb 6: 1-7 is a precise articulation of this Doctrine. BUT there MIGHT be ulterior conditions that need to be factored in. Eg. Is the Person an INFORMED, practicing RCC? While ALL of us have a grave MORAL responsibility to HAVE a rightly formed conscience CCC #1783, some are not even aware of this condition, which God will factor in. But as the NORM, His eminence is completely correct.

Which is an excuse; FAR more than a reason not to do so. The Power of the KEYS Mt 16:15-19; Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:18-20 make clear the CHURCH is empowered to COMMAND. See John 20: 30-31 & John 21: 24-25 {i know YOU know this}

At the Last Supper, Christ instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and commanded the Apostles to “do this in memory of Me” (Luke 22:19). So the Mass is the manner, which the Lord has prescribed, for us to worship Him. The Mass is also the channel by which the merits and graces that Christ won for us on the cross, are transmitted to us, throughout time, through Holy Communion.

As is stated above, the obligation to worship the Lord is a serious one, so the Church obliges us to attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days under pain of serious (mortal) sin (this is the “how” mentioned above). Mortal means a sin causing the death of the soul, as opposed to a venial sin which does not totally deprive a person of God’s saving grace (see 1 John 5:16). .

& John 20:19-23

Now some will say: “Where does the Church get the authority to make such a statement”? That authority comes directly from Christ! In Matthew 16:19, our Lord says to Peter: “I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”. Here, our Lord gives to Peter, as the head of His Church –.

AMEN!

It should also be noted, that this authority was not given to Peter personally as an individual, but to the office which Peter would represent, the office of the Pope (also referred to as “The Chair of Peter”). In Matthew 18:18 our lord again gives this same authority to all the apostles as a group. This authority and that given to Peter is passed on to their successors (Apostolic Succession - 2 Timothy 2:2.), and is exercised when the bishops come together for a Church Council

READ Mt 10: 1-8 & compare it to Mt 28:18-20 to SEEE that Jesus Himself commanded Succession in order to fill the NEW Command ; " Cf.YOU GO TO THE ENTIRE WORLD".

My comments are for others reading this NOT you

Now, some will say that: “Well I left the Catholic Church, so their rules no longer apply to me – right?” “WRONG”!

It;s NOT the RCC’s “rule”’ NO! Its God’s through the POWER of the KEYS: what YOU Bind; what YOU loose will be affianced in HEAVEN Mt 16:18-19

Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

EXCELLENT POST!

AMEN to your conclusion Heb 6: 1-7 confirms this

To be saved, these individuals must return to the Church, go to the Sacrament of Confession, and become a practicing Catholic again. I might add a side note here. There are about 40 verses (OT & NT) in scripture that deal with or prefigure Christ’s institution of the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). See John 20: 19-23 for a start.

To cast aside the “pearl of great price” is a serious error - and sin. The pearl of great price is the Catholic Faith, “the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH” - the “fullness of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and handed down throughout the ages by and through the Catholic Church.

Pray to know the truth while there is still time, for at the moment of death, the time of grace will have passed – the time of Justice will have come. Let us do now what, on the Day of Judgment, we would then wish we would have done!

God bless

References

Luther and the Bible - Dr. David Anders. Dr. Anders was a Presbyterian Bible scholar who did his PhD. Studies in Reformation History.

youtu.be/R5NT32Y-Mrk

.

Thank you, this is one of the finest post I have ever seen on CAF

God Bless you, and forgive my adding to it

Patrick

 

[zeland]

Thanks to all for your positive comments and additional resources.

God bless.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I have observed several converts, almost all women, who went through RCIA and were such enthusiastic “baby Catholics” for the first year or two, perhaps longer, but who ended up getting upset by something. It may have been a doctrine, a priest or fellow parishioner, or an encounter with a person or memory of their former religion. In one case it was pressure by a husband.

Several of these women were in the age bracket that would have been teenagers in the 1960s and displayed a lingering affinity with the hippie mindset, the peace, love, all religions are equal, distrust of authority, etc.

Some also had physical issues of chronic illness and quite possibly mental illness. I’m guessing that their conversions were overly based on emotions, and thus subject to change when their emotions changed.

The questions in my mind are: What, if anything, RCIA programs can or should do to make sure people convert for the right reasons, and whether some need more discernment time? And how to try and get the fallen away converts to return? Finally, if they stubbornly refuse, yet may not be fully culpable, where does that leave them salvation wise? I definitely think we need to be praying for those like I described, and anyone who for whatever reason has rejected the Church.

 

[PJM]

In 1985, I attended the first annual “Church Teaches Forum” which took place in Louisville, Kentucky. The keynote speaker at this event was Francis Cardinal Arinze. He gave an address to a 1,800 plus audience. One item he talked on was the subject of whether Catholics, who no longer attend Mass on Sunday, or who have left the Church for a non-Catholic religion, can be saved, if they do not return to the Catholic Church. He said: “The Catholic Church is not a free club; it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ. Those who have known her, and left her, will not be saved”.

At first, this may sound like a strong or harsh statement, so let’s look at the mechanics of the Cardinal’s words in a step by step manner. I will start with a little background info.

From the first and third Commandment, (1st. I am the Lord, your God. You shall not have other gods besides me; 3rd. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day), we see that we are commanded to worship the One True God. This is a serious obligation. However, these two commandments do not tell us how we are to worship God.

As is stated above, the obligation to worship the Lord is a serious one, so the Church obliges us to attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days under pain of serious (mortal) sin (this is the “how” mentioned above). Mortal means a sin causing the death of the soul, as opposed to a venial sin which does not totally deprive a person of God’s saving grace (see 1 John 5:16). The Mass is the highest form of worship and the most powerful prayer we can offer to God. So intentionally missing Mass on any of the above mentioned days is a mortal sin.

Now some will say: “Where does the Church get the authority to make such a statement”? That authority comes directly from Christ! In Matthew 16:19, our Lord says to Peter: “I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”. Here, our Lord gives to Peter, as the head of His Church – the Office of Pope – the authority to make rules and regulations to govern the Church. You will note that this is an absolute authority; there were no conditions, exceptions or exclusions in our Lords commission to Peter.

It should also be noted, that this authority was not given to Peter personally as an individual, but to the office which Peter would represent, the office of the Pope (also referred to as “The Chair of Peter”). In Matthew 18:18 our lord again gives this same authority to all the apostles as a group. This authority and that given to Peter is passed on to their successors (Apostolic Succession - 2 Timothy 2:2.), and is exercised when the bishops come together for a Church Council.

So what happens when a person decides to leave the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic religion? Well the first Sunday, and each Sunday thereafter that they miss Mass, they commit a serious sin

Now, some will say that: “Well I left the Catholic Church, so their rules no longer apply to me – right?” “WRONG”! All baptized Catholics must die within the Church. As Cardinal Arinze said above, the Catholic Church is NOT a free club where we come and go as we please. When a person is baptized a Catholic, a special spiritual indelible mark is placed on their soul, which in fact makes their soul the property of the Catholic Church so to speak. This is why the devils in hell can tell a Catholic soul from a non-Catholic one. It is the same idea as when a Catholic man is ordained to the Priesthood. The Sacrament of Holy orders puts an indelible mark on his soul which differentiates him from a Catholic layman. In hell, the devils know which Catholics were priests or bishops.

Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

To be saved, these individuals must return to the Church, go to the Sacrament of Confession, and become a practicing Catholic again. I might add a side note here. There are about 40 verses (OT & NT) in scripture that deal with or prefigure Christ’s institution of the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). See John 20: 19-23 for a start.

To cast aside the “pearl of great price” is a serious error - and sin. The pearl of great price is the Catholic Faith, “the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH” - the “fullness of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and handed down throughout the ages by and through the Catholic Church.

Pray to know the truth while there is still time, for at the moment of death, the time of grace will have passed – the time of Justice will have come. Let us do now what, on the Day of Judgment, we would then wish we would have done!

God bless

References

Luther and the Bible - Dr. David Anders. Dr. Anders was a Presbyterian Bible scholar who did his PhD. Studies in Reformation History.

youtu.be/R5NT32Y-Mrk

.

AS THE NORM

ONLY BY RE-CONVERSION AND REPENTANCE MAY SUCH BE SAVED

Read Heb 6:4-10 which addresses this precisely

So what Cardinal Arniez shared is the GOSPEL TRUTH

It would take extraordinary circumstances for the NORM not to apply to ALL cases

Pray much!

 

[Ernie07]

AS THE NORM

ONLY BY RE-CONVERSION AND REPENTANCE MAY SUCH BE SAVED

Read Heb 6:4-10 which addresses this precisely

So what Cardinal Arniez shared is the GOSPEL TRUTH

It would take extraordinary circumstances for the NORM not to apply to ALL cases

Pray much!

Hi Patrick,

I have a close family member in this situation so I want to completely understand this. Are you saying that if my family member who was born and raised a Catholic left the Church they will need to re-convert and repent in order to be saved? I know we can’t know the graces of God that He could employ after we die, but it sounds like you’re, in essence, saying that if they don’t re-convert and repent then they will be condemned. That this would be the norm. I don’t want to put words in your mouth though based on any misunderstandings I may have so that’s why I wanted to specifically ask you. This family member just doesn’t believe in the sacraments and the authority of the Church and says that maybe they never did…they believed only because their parents believed. It almost sounds like they’re questioning if they were ever truly Catholic. Would this be a case potentially outside the norm? I’m very concerned about my family member and that’s why this topic is so important to me.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Gertabelle]

We are to apply the requirements for salvation to our OWN souls – not to try and speculate on the salvation or damnation of everyone else’s soul.

If we are in a position to create opportunities for catechesis for fellow Catholics - we should do that.

If we are in a position to lovingly encourage a friend or family member to return to the Church, we should do that.

And we should all pray for ALL souls, that God’s heart would not suffer the rejection of his children.

But if we think we’re going to turn hearts and win souls for God by sharing lengthy apologetic arguments about how others are going to hell if they don’t get their act together… boy, would we ever be off the mark!

I have never yet met someone who left the Church who would have welcomed my telling them how my Church condemns them to hell for their choices. :tsktsk:

Within the context of a loving relationship – one that has proven itself through word and action and time – invite, encourage, and share when and how it is appropriate. And be sure to be Christ to all, salt and light for the earth.

 

[zeland]

Hi Patrick,

I have a close family member in this situation so I want to completely understand this. Are you saying that if my family member who was born and raised a Catholic left the Church they will need to re-convert and repent in order to be saved? I know we can’t know the graces of God that He could employ after we die, but it sounds like you’re, in essence, saying that if they don’t re-convert and repent then they will be condemned. That this would be the norm. I don’t want to put words in your mouth though based on any misunderstandings I may have so that’s why I wanted to specifically ask you. This family member just doesn’t believe in the sacraments and the authority of the Church and says that maybe they never did…they believed only because their parents believed. It almost sounds like they’re questioning if they were ever truly Catholic. Would this be a case potentially outside the norm? I’m very concerned about my family member and that’s why this topic is so important to me.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Dear Ernie,

Thanks for your question and concern for your family member. Ultimately, only God can see what is in a person’s heart as to what they knew and understood when they leave the church. Objectively speaking, this person needs to return to the Church and the sacraments. If they don’t believe in the authority of the Church and the teachings of Christ,
then this presents and additional obstacle. How can this person’s sins be forgiven if they refuse to repent and go to confession?

You can talk with this person and try to reason with then as to the necessity of returning to the Church, but in the end, prayer and penance (on your part) for this person may the best thing you can do for this person.

Perhaps Patrick can add some additional thoughts to this.

God bless.

zeland

 

[zeland]

We are to apply the requirements for salvation to our OWN souls – not to try and speculate on the salvation or damnation of everyone else’s soul.

If we are in a position to create opportunities for catechesis for fellow Catholics - we should do that.

If we are in a position to lovingly encourage a friend or family member to return to the Church, we should do that.

And we should all pray for ALL souls, that God’s heart would not suffer the rejection of his children.

But if we think we’re going to turn hearts and win souls for God by sharing lengthy apologetic arguments about how others are going to hell if they don’t get their act together… boy, would we ever be off the mark!

I have never yet met someone who left the Church who would have welcomed my telling them how my Church condemns them to hell for their choices. :tsktsk:

Within the context of a loving relationship – one that has proven itself through word and action and time – invite, encourage, and share when and how it is appropriate. And be sure to be Christ to all, salt and light for the earth.

Dear Gertabelle,

I think you are misunderstanding the purpose for my original post. Much of what say is true, however many people who leave the Church have a poor understanding of the spiritual harm they are causing themselves. The purpose of my post is to give an objective view of the mechanics of the situation.

Yes, we need to talk to these people in a caring, loving manner, but let us not fall victim to a false sense of exaggerated compassion where we hide or fail to convey the truth. Political correctness has infected many parts of our society, including the Church. Many of the problems we have today are because the shepherds are not doing their job.

With that thought in mind, I must question one of your statements. “I have never yet met someone who left the Church who would have welcomed my telling them how my Church condemns them to hell for their choices. :tsktsk”:

While you are correct that they may not welcome you telling them that they may be on the path to hell, they need to hear the truth, and it is the Church’s responsibility, and ours to tell them so. Why, because we are commanded by God to do so. Listen to what the Lord says in Ezekiel 3: 17-19

*17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.*

I do not wish to have the blood of anyone’s damnation on my hands!

God bless.

zeland

 

[Ernie07]

Dear Ernie,

Thanks for your question and concern for your family member. Ultimately, only God can see what is in a person’s heart as to what they knew and understood when they leave the church. Objectively speaking, this person needs to return to the Church and the sacraments. If they don’t believe in the authority of the Church and the teachings of Christ,
then this presents and additional obstacle. How can this person’s sins be forgiven if they refuse to repent and go to confession?

You can talk with this person and try to reason with then as to the necessity of returning to the Church, but in the end, prayer and penance (on your part) for this person may the best thing you can do for this person.

Perhaps Patrick can add some additional thoughts to this.

God bless.

zeland

Hi Zeland,

Thank you for your response. If you don’t mind me asking when you say “objectively speaking” what do you mean? Because the way I interpret what you’re saying, that if they don’t return to the Catholic faith their salvation is in danger, is the way I think about this topic as well. Granted, we don’t know the heart of an individual or the graces God may bestow on them after death, but to say otherwise regarding the Catholic faith is to make the belief that the Catholic Church is essential for salvation kind of meaningless. What do you think?

Thanks again. And God bless you as well!

-Ernie-

 

[PJM]

Hi Patrick,

I have a close family member in this situation so I want to completely understand this. Are you saying that if my family member who was born and raised a Catholic left the Church they will need to re-convert and repent in order to be saved? I know we can’t know the graces of God that He could employ after we die, but it sounds like you’re, in essence, saying that if they don’t re-convert and repent then they will be condemned. That this would be the norm. I don’t want to put words in your mouth though based on any misunderstandings I may have so that’s why I wanted to specifically ask you. This family member just doesn’t believe in the sacraments and the authority of the Church and says that maybe they never did…they believed only because their parents believed. It almost sounds like they’re questioning if they were ever truly Catholic. Would this be a case potentially outside the norm? I’m very concerned about my family member and that’s why this topic is so important to me.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Hi Emie

I TOO have very close relatives who have chosen to leave the RCC

God has NOT appointed ME as judge and jury; and ONLY GOD is able to make the final call Fairly and Justly;

What I shared is both biblical teaching AND the NORMAL teaching of the RCC; but life very often is NOT “normal”

As the NORM Heb 6: 4-10 is GOD"S and God’s Church position on the matter.

In MY personal life situation my brother received 12 years of SOLID Catholic Faith formation; but suffers from mental illness. My sister received very little Catholic Faith formation; mostly Sunday Mass and homilies; and a very Catholic home life; regular family Rosary ect…

I presume no right to pass judgment on either of them; That IS God’s task.

That said, given what the bible say’s & what the RCC teaches; I SUSPECT neither of them have even close to an assured salvation. Their charity WILL be a big part of God’s decision. However NONE of us do either. Each soul can fall or repent right up to actual death.

Those who leave the RCC for any reason though; have very likely lessened their chances by in a real sense denying God [the Real Presence], which is not a good thing. So repentance and re-conversion ARE the surest remedies for this spiritual illness.

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10
[4] For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [BAPTIZED AND RECEIVE THEIR GOD IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [CATHOLIC CONFIRMATION WHICH CREATES A PERSONAL COVENANT COMMITMENT BETWEEN THEM AND GOD…MADE MORE SERIOUS BECAUSE THEY ARE USUALLY ABOVE THE AGE OF REASON AT THE TIME]
[5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [HAVE HEAD GOD’S WORD READ AND EXPLAINED TO THEM IN ITS SINGULAR TRUTHS]
[6] **if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. **
[7] For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated,[RECEIVE ABUNDANT GRACE OFFERS] receives a blessing from God.
[8] But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. [BUT IF THE GRACE IS REJECTED OR MISAPPLIED]
[9] Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation.
[10] For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. CHARITY WILL ALWAYS BE A FACTOR]

So pray MUCH for them, and if possible encourage them to return HOME.

WHY?

There is but One TRUE God
Even GOD can possibly and logically have but one TRUE set of Faith beliefs
And God [Yahweh & Jesus] consistently choose:
Yahweh:[just] One Chosen People Exo 6:7 [singular]
Jesus: [just] “MY Church” Mt 16:18-19 [singular]

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi Patrick,

I have a close family member in this situation so I want to completely understand this. Are you saying that if my family member who was born and raised a Catholic left the Church they will need to re-convert and repent in order to be saved? I know we can’t know the graces of God that He could employ after we die, but it sounds like you’re, in essence, saying that if they don’t re-convert and repent then they will be condemned. That this would be the norm. I don’t want to put words in your mouth though based on any misunderstandings I may have so that’s why I wanted to specifically ask you. This family member just doesn’t believe in the sacraments and the authority of the Church and says that maybe they never did…they believed only because their parents believed. It almost sounds like they’re questioning if they were ever truly Catholic. Would this be a case potentially outside the norm? I’m very concerned about my family member and that’s why this topic is so important to me.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

Emie, I meant to add this critically important note:

GOD will make His final judgment for EACH Soul NOT based on what they prefer what they chose to believe, live and accept. NO! God will, because as GOD He MUST pass final judgment on each Soul based upon what HE, as God has made POSSIBLES for each Soul to know, believe, live and accept,

THAT my friend is Divine Justice: Amen

 

[Ernie07]

Emie, I meant to add this critically important note:

GOD will make His final judgment for EACH Soul NOT based on what they prefer what they chose to believe, live and accept. NO! God will, because as GOD He MUST pass final judgment on each Soul based upon what HE, as God has made POSSIBLES for each Soul to know, believe, live and accept,

THAT my friend is Divine Justice: Amen

Thank you Patrick for your two responses. They were very helpful and thought provoking. I guess where I struggle a bit is anytime there is a situation where something “is essential” only to find that there are loopholes and it really isn’t essential. In this case the Catholic Church “is essential” for salvation, but not really because one can be saved without it. Practicing Catholics may be in a better position for eternal life due to the special graces offered by the Church (assuming they are taken advantage of), but non-Catholics, even non-Christians may get into heaven without being a part of the Church (assuming “invincible ignorance”). It really is all about dying in a state of grace. That is the key. And then let God sort it out.

Can non-Catholics or non-Christians die in a state of grace and thus enter heaven? Yes. Can Catholics die without being in a state of grace and be rejected from heaven? Yes. Therefore, the Catholic Church is not essential (from a salvation standpoint). There is a difference between “giving the best chance” and “essential”. The bottom line for me is that if you aren’t a Catholic you are, in theory, at greater risk of not entering heaven. But, that is assuming that you, as a Catholic, follow all of the Church’s teachings and take advantage of the graces offered. I haven’t spoken to a single non-Catholic that has told me, “I know the Catholic Church is the church Jesus founded, but I can’t become a member because of…” Rather, every non-Catholic that I’ve spoken with will say, “the reason that the Catholic Church is not the church Jesus founded is because…” Therefore, in my experience they are all “invincibly ignorant” and thus they all have the potential of being saved without believing in the Catholic Church. Thus, the Catholic Church is not essential for salvation.

Where am I going wrong?

Thanks!

-Ernie-

P.S. My line of thinking doesn’t impact my being a devout Catholic. I don’t want you to think I was straying from the faith based on my post here. Again, I’m a Catholic primarily because Jesus founded it and that’s good enough for me.