Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

[PJM]

Thank you Patrick for your two responses. They were very helpful and thought provoking. I guess where I struggle a bit is anytime there is a situation where something “is essential” only to find that there are loopholes and it really isn’t essential. In this case the Catholic Church “is essential” for salvation, but not really because one can be saved without it. Practicing Catholics may be in a better position for eternal life due to the special graces offered by the Church (assuming they are taken advantage of), but non-Catholics, even non-Christians may get into heaven without being a part of the Church (assuming “invincible ignorance”). It really is all about dying in a state of grace. That is the key. And then let God sort it out.

Can non-Catholics or non-Christians die in a state of grace and thus enter heaven? Yes. Can Catholics die without being in a state of grace and be rejected from heaven? Yes. Therefore, the Catholic Church is not essential (from a salvation standpoint). There is a difference between “giving the best chance” and “essential”. The bottom line for me is that if you aren’t a Catholic you are, in theory, at greater risk of not entering heaven. But, that is assuming that you, as a Catholic, follow all of the Church’s teachings and take advantage of the graces offered. I haven’t spoken to a single non-Catholic that has told me, “I know the Catholic Church is the church Jesus founded, but I can’t become a member because of…” Rather, every non-Catholic that I’ve spoken with will say, “the reason that the Catholic Church is not the church Jesus founded is because…” Therefore, in my experience they are all “invincibly ignorant” and thus they all have the potential of being saved without believing in the Catholic Church. Thus, the Catholic Church is not essential for salvation.

Where am I going wrong?

Thanks!

-Ernie-

Life IS complicated isn’t it.

THANKS for a very thought provoking post reply.

It’s not quite as cut and dried as I understand you to make it.

What you seem to be missing is this:

God is in charge even when we may prefer Him NOT to be

God will, because God MUST pass final Judgment upon each soul; NOT based on one’s personal preferences & choices. NO, God will, because GOD MUST make this Judgment call based on what HE HAS MADE POSSIBLE for each soul to know, accept, and live.

Hence there may be MANY non-Catholics on this CAF site that will be judged based on what GOD has made possible for them to know; although that too is a process between them and the Holy Spirit; and NOT something We are able to pass judgment on.

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21 point out that “life is a GOD Test”… We ought not assume that GOD views all faiths as equal; quite the opposite is nearer the TRUTH.

Catholics HAVE an “in-side” track, on our personal salvation NOT only because of the Sacraments; but even more so because the RCC is the ONE and ONLY True Church & faith, founded, desired and protected by God… minimalism of this FACT is very dangerous to anyone’s salvation.

It is the high risk of denying what GOD does make possible due to sloth, ignorance, pride, family association, or any other reason that poses a GRAVE risk to those outside of the RCC.

In the final judgment GOD has to be both fair and just. Amen

P.S. My line of thinking doesn’t impact my being a devout Catholic. I don’t want you to think I was straying from the faith based on my post here. Again, I’m a Catholic primarily because Jesus founded it and that’s good enough for me.

AMEN! to your final comment

Continued Blessings

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Which would be worse, being an ex-Catholic or being a cafeteria Catholic? I haven’t been to a Catholic Mass in a while and my cafeteria plate is pretty diverse.

ONLY GOD KNOWS FOR SURE,

But in both cases fire insurance would be a prudent idea

May God forgive you and grant you the grace you seem to be in need of

Partick

 

[Ernie07]

Life IS complicated isn’t it.

THANKS for a very thought provoking post reply.

It’s not quite as cut and dried as I understand you to make it.

What you seem to be missing is this:

God is in charge even when we may prefer Him NOT to be

God will, because God MUST pass final Judgment upon each soul; NOT based on one’s personal preferences & choices. NO, God will, because GOD MUST make this Judgment call based on what HE HAS MADE POSSIBLE for each soul to know, accept, and live.

Hence there may be MANY non-Catholics on this CAF site that will be judged based on what GOD has made possible for them to know; although that too is a process between them and the Holy Spirit; and NOT something We are able to pass judgment on.

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21 point out that “life is a GOD Test”… We ought not assume that GOD views all faiths as equal; quite the opposite is nearer the TRUTH.

Catholics HAVE an “in-side” track, on our personal salvation NOT only because of the Sacraments; but even more so because the RCC is the ONE and ONLY True Church & faith, founded, desired and protected by God… minimalism of this FACT is very dangerous to anyone’s salvation.

It is the high risk of denying what GOD does make possible due to sloth, ignorance, pride, family association, or any other reason that poses a GRAVE risk to those outside of the RCC.

In the final judgment GOD has to be both fair and just. Amen

AMEN! to your final comment

Continued Blessings

Patrick

Good stuff, Patrick!! My angle is almost always from an evangelization standpoint and how more people can be “won” for the faith. I’m in sales so my brain can’t help but to look for angles or ways to more effectively “sell” or preach the faith. I do believe God is totally in charge at all times. Even to the point of there may be some things that I won’t understand here on Earth and may still never understand in heaven or never even be told what the truth is…but that’s OK if that is God’s will. I will trust God to let me know what He desires for me to know.

But, with that being said, I try to best understand my faith in order to best do His will. I’ve been given a gift of faith; a faith in Jesus and in His Church. I just want to do the best I can to promote that. You and others on this forum have helped me toward this end and I appreciate it very much.

God speed to you, Patrick!

-Ernie-

 

[Gertabelle]

I do not wish to have the blood of anyone’s damnation on my hands!

God bless.

zeland

So, you walk around warning everyone of every sin you see them committing for the sake of YOUR soul?

Over which souls exactly has God made you the watchman?

And how effective has it been for OTHER people’s souls for you to walk up and announce, “If you don’t repent and join (rejoin) the Catholic Church, you will most like go to hell”?

Personally, I think the passage in Ezekiel is directed at Bishops and perhaps pastors. I have certainly not been called to be the watchman of the souls of giant swaths of humanity. :nope:

But anyway, carry on with your discussion y’all.

 

[Rosebud77]

So, you walk around warning everyone of every sin you see them committing for the sake of YOUR soul?

Over which souls exactly has God made you the watchman?

And how effective has it been for OTHER people’s souls for you to walk up and announce, “If you don’t repent and join (rejoin) the Catholic Church, you will most like go to hell”?

Personally, I think the passage in Ezekiel is directed at Bishops and perhaps pastors. I have certainly not been called to be the watchman of the souls of giant swaths of humanity. :nope:

But anyway, carry on with your discussion y’all.

Used to call this “keeping your eye on your own page”… I think Jesus says it better, re planks and specks?

As for me… I am no longer associated with the Catholic church. Yet my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus have never been so strong and full.

Theology and doctrine have never meant anything to me and living as I do and with my health limitations I honestly do not need physical church.

If folk do nto see the love of the Lord Jesus in my life then I am failing Him .

Tuam ended the Church here in ireland for me. One scandal too far… So I live in what peace I can find, loving Jesus and loving others who He has ways of putting in my solitary path.

And it is that love that will heal . and thus save.

 

[PJM]

Used to call this “keeping your eye on your own page”… I think Jesus says it better, re planks and specks?

As for me… I am no longer associated with the Catholic church. Yet my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus have never been so strong and full.

Theology and doctrine have never meant anything to me and living as I do and with my health limitations I honestly do not need physical church.

If folk do nto see the love of the Lord Jesus in my life then I am failing Him .

Tuam ended the Church here in ireland for me. One scandal too far… So I live in what peace I can find, loving Jesus and loving others who He has ways of putting in my solitary path.

And it is that love that will heal . and thus save.

So my friend a question for you,

Do you suppose GOD is willing to grant you salvation YOUR way over HIS:shrug:

You may wish to read Hebrews 6: 4-10 & pray about it.

NOT one place in the entire bible does, did, does or will GOD give any evidence of ever approving, accepting, over-looking ANY other faith beliefs other than the ONES He has given to first His people [Exo 6:7] & Jesus SAME in Mt 16:18-19 “MY CHURCH” singular. WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT IS?

May God grant you the grace to SEE and grasp HIS way to salvation.

Patrick

 

[adf417]

Used to call this “keeping your eye on your own page”… I think Jesus says it better, re planks and specks?

As for me… I am no longer associated with the Catholic church. Yet my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus have never been so strong and full.

Theology and doctrine have never meant anything to me and living as I do and with my health limitations I honestly do not need physical church.

If folk do nto see the love of the Lord Jesus in my life then I am failing Him .

Tuam ended the Church here in ireland for me. One scandal too far… So I live in what peace I can find, loving Jesus and loving others who He has ways of putting in my solitary path.

And it is that love that will heal . and thus save.

Why would you want mislead people by professing your religion to be “Catholic” in your profile? Are there any other “Catholics” you know of who are not associated with the Catholic Church?

Peace!!!

 

[Gertabelle]

Used to call this “keeping your eye on your own page”… I think Jesus says it better, re planks and specks?

As for me… I am no longer associated with the Catholic church. Yet my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus have never been so strong and full.

Theology and doctrine have never meant anything to me and living as I do and with my health limitations I honestly do not need physical church.

If folk do nto see the love of the Lord Jesus in my life then I am failing Him .

Tuam ended the Church here in ireland for me. One scandal too far… So I live in what peace I can find, loving Jesus and loving others who He has ways of putting in my solitary path.

And it is that love that will heal . and thus save.

Oh, my dear Rosebud, I am so sorry for the pain you are experiencing. But I am also so thankful for the depth of love and compassion God has granted you – may He be glorified in His gifts to you.

The horrors of Tuam – and every other place where leaders of the Church have committed heinous crimes (this is not the first – and God help us, it likely won’t be the last) – propagate such depths of anger, horror, grief.

My God, my God, how can you allow such things?!

I am praying for all involved, and keeping you in my prayers as well.

Regardless of how you move forward with the practice of your faith, I ask you to offer your sorrow and anger to Jesus as a prayer for the children in danger in the present.

 

[Rosebud77]

Oh, my dear Rosebud, I am so sorry for the pain you are experiencing. But I am also so thankful for the depth of love and compassion God has granted you – may He be glorified in His gifts to you.

The horrors of Tuam – and every other place where leaders of the Church have committed heinous crimes (this is not the first – and God help us, it likely won’t be the last) – propagate such depths of anger, horror, grief.

My God, my God, how can you allow such things?!

I am praying for all involved, and keeping you in my prayers as well.

Regardless of how you move forward with the practice of your faith, I ask you to offer your sorrow and anger to Jesus as a prayer for the children in danger in the present.

For your compassion and understanding, thank you and bless you.

I am actually at peace about where I am. Being actively catholic was always a strain on me and with advancing age and increasing illness it has become a burden in so many ways.

No anger, simply a desire not to be associated in any way. Just… walking away… Not the work of God, Tuam , and worse to come here in this belieaguered little country

Does not really matter does it? God had His ways and His love and those are things I am totally utterly sure of, up here in my all but bedbound solitude,

I am in my hermithood no different from many hermits in the past. Isolated, far from active church, deep in prayer and in compassion and the work of my hands feeding the most need> I sent a package of my handknits to family in Canada and the whole lot sold immediately for a very good price that will feed so many abandoned babies in India and Nepal where they work .

Prayer and work for others is all…

The rest is for God and I am tranquil about that,

 

[Rosebud77]

Why would you want mislead people by professing your religion to be “Catholic” in your profile? Are there any other “Catholics” you know of who are not associated with the Catholic Church?

Peace!!!

Young person; kindly show some respect for the needs of others. And read what I wrote, and maybe change your last word!!!

Oh and yes I know here in Ireland many who will still say they are catholic but who have no meaningful association with the catholic church. Many such here now.

My prayer is all day and often all night. alone up here and all but bedbound and very old.

catholic has many meanings surely…

 

[Rosebud77]

Oh dear. Please, that harp is making my eyes hurt.

God is Himself. As I once told a group of eager young NI evanglesists who insisted that sitting outside at a market stall , selling hand work to “feed the hungry” would nto “get you to heaven” … that thankfully is up to God not you or I and I work as I do for love not gain

Trusting all to Him and tranquil in that.

And please! I am very old and have had an… interesting life… I am not impressed with posts like this in their sheer lack of any reality, Nor do I or would I use the Holy Bible as a battering ram …

I know scripture but am certainly not involving with you on this…

My Lord is my God and that is all I need and I cannot countenance the evils done by the church here in Ireland with no shame and no sign of any remorse or amelioration,

Not judging, just walking away to where I can breathe without sobbing… thousands of little ones starved to death within my lifetime? By those vowed to Jesus?

I do not see Jesus in that… If He is there, He is weeping with me.

And there is no need to shout ! Such bad manners…

So I stay up on the mountain, away from it all and resting my soul and my old sick body … praying and working.

Outside any church now, in Jesus No labels any more

So !!!my friend!!! a question for you,

Do you suppose GOD is willing to grant you salvation YOUR way over HIS:shrug:

You may wish to read Hebrews 6: 4-10 & pray about it.

NOT one place in the entire bible does, did, does or will GOD give any evidence of ever approving, accepting, over-looking ANY other faith beliefs other than the ONES He has given to first His people [Exo 6:7] & Jesus SAME in Mt 16:18-19 “MY CHURCH” singular. WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT IS?

May God grant you the grace to SEE and grasp HIS way to salvation.

Patrick

 

[adf417]

Young person; kindly show some respect for the needs of others. And read what I wrote, and maybe change your last word!!!

Oh and yes I know here in Ireland many who will still say they are catholic but who have no meaningful association with the catholic church. Many such here now.

My prayer is all day and often all night. alone up here and all but bedbound and very old.

catholic has many meanings surely…

Sorry if i offended you and im still not sure how. Im just curious why you would lable yourself “catholic” and state, here on a Catholic forum, how you have disassociated yourself from the Catholic church. Seems a bit confusing to me.

Peace be with you!!!

 

[ConfusedLucy]

What if a person genuinely thought they could do a better job serving God outside of the Catholic church?

 

[PJM]

Oh dear. Please, that harp is making my eyes hurt.

God is Himself. As I once told a group of eager young NI evanglesists who insisted that sitting outside at a market stall , selling hand work to “feed the hungry” would nto “get you to heaven” … that thankfully is up to God not you or I and I work as I do for love not gain

Trusting all to Him and tranquil in that.

And please! I am very old and have had an… interesting life… I am not impressed with posts like this in their sheer lack of any reality, Nor do I or would I use the Holy Bible as a battering ram …

I know scripture but am certainly not involving with you on this…

My Lord is my God and that is all I need and I cannot countenance the evils done by the church here in Ireland with no shame and no sign of any remorse or amelioration,

Not judging, just walking away to where I can breathe without sobbing… thousands of little ones starved to death within my lifetime? By those vowed to Jesus?

I do not see Jesus in that… If He is there, He is weeping with me.

And there is no need to shout ! Such bad manners…

So I stay up on the mountain, away from it all and resting my soul and my old sick body … praying and working.

Outside any church now, in Jesus No labels any more

Thanks for your reply

For the record I’m 72 and dealing with heath issues myself.

So My friend, you still have not answered my question

So my friend a question for you,

Do you suppose GOD is willing to grant you salvation YOUR way over HIS

And did you do as I suggested and read Hebrews 6:4-10?

Age and failing health it seems would be sufficient reason to get RIGHT with God His way; ASAP.

Secondly; God’s not one for excuses.

The RCC is like Jesus; PERFECT and unable to sin. It’s the folks in Her that are sinners; which needs to be grasped This reality is NO reason NOT to remain in the ONLY Church , with the ONLY acceptable faith from God’s perspective.

Pray about it. It is indeed SAD what the RCC in Ireland [mom’s from county Corke], is going through; BUT God’s judgment is 1st on each of us as individuals, before He judges the entire Church. Amen

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

What if a person genuinely thought they could do a better job serving God outside of the Catholic church?

ASK YOURSELF THESE FEW QUESTIONS PRAYERFULLY

1. Who’s in Charge of my Life and salvation? Me or or GOD?
2. Trying to merit my salvation my way of GOD’s way is MORE likely to be successful?
3. Do I really [fully] understand that GOD, biblically, morally, historically and even logically has ALWAYS taught and demanded that I [we] believe in just:

One True God [the 1st commandment]

That even GOD can have nothing other than just One set of TRUE faith beliefs

That it is IMPOSSIBLE that GOD would have waited for the Reformation fathers to teach and and make evident HIS single set of Faith beliefs

That Yahweh freely choose and DESIRED just One chosen people Exo 6:7 & And the Jesus did the very-same-thing by establishing “MY CHURCH” [singular] Mt 16:18

1. Have you ever carefully and prayerfully READ Hebrews 6:4-10; AND UNDERSTOOD it?
2. How important do YOU suppose your opinion is when compared to His Infallible opinions and teachings?

PRAY MUCH about this my friend,

May the Holy Spirit, not pride LEAD you,

Patrick

 

[ConfusedLucy]

ASK YOURSELF THESE FEW QUESTIONS PRAYERFULLY

1. Who’s in Charge of my Life and salvation? Me or or GOD?
2. Trying to merit my salvation my way of GOD’s way is MORE likely to be successful?
3. Do I really [fully] understand that GOD, biblically, morally, historically and even logically has ALWAYS taught and demanded that I [we] believe in just:

One True God [the 1st commandment]

That even GOD can have nothing other than just One set of TRUE faith beliefs

That it is IMPOSSIBLE that GOD would have waited for the Reformation fathers to teach and and make evident HIS single set of Faith beliefs

That Yahweh freely choose and DESIRED just One chosen people Exo 6:7 & And the Jesus did the very-same-thing by establishing “MY CHURCH” [singular] Mt 16:18

1. Have you ever carefully and prayerfully READ Hebrews 6:4-10; AND UNDERSTOOD it?
2. How important do YOU suppose your opinion is when compared to His Infallible opinions and teachings?

PRAY MUCH about this my friend,

May the Holy Spirit, not pride LEAD you,

Patrick

I do keep these people in my prayers as well as praying I wont give in to temptation to leave the Catholic Church for what seems like an easier life, at least from my limited perspective on life.

I do think its very different when a person ditches the Catholic Church will a good appreciation of the Eucharist and someone who only has a very superficial Catholic faith and genuinely cant link going to mass with being close to Christ and is genuinely seeking that closeness. There must have been loads of people in the past who went to mass just because all their family and friends did and it was just the path of least resistance, are these people any better than those who gave up mass?

 

[Rosebud77]

Thanks for your reply

For the record I’m 72 and dealing with heath issues myself.

So My friend, you still have not answered my question

And did you do as I suggested and read Hebrews 6:4-10?

Age and failing health it seems would be sufficient reason to get RIGHT with God His way; ASAP.

Secondly; God’s not one for excuses.

The RCC is like Jesus; PERFECT and unable to sin. It’s the folks in Her that are sinners; which needs to be grasped This reality is NO reason NOT to remain in the ONLY Church , with the ONLY acceptable faith from God’s perspective.

Pray about it. It is indeed SAD what the RCC in Ireland [mom’s from county Corke], is going through; BUT God’s judgment is 1st on each of us as individuals, before He judges the entire Church. Amen

GBY

Patrick

No I did not follow your “advice” or “answer your questions”
who are you to ask these things of a stranger on the internet?

. I have excellent spiritual guidance, and medical advice on all of this. Folk who know me intimately and have done to for years,

I dio not go to mass; as I have said here before I have no working immune system and have to avoid enclosed places especially in this new place.

Events here, which involved folk I am close to, drove me almost to breaking point… My ways of God are wide and free and of Him and i know His love and His peace. .

He will heal and guide me in His ways… He is my life.

And i have the help I need thank you !

Your guilt - ing militant ways are alien to me. Threats? Bordering on intimidation in places
and so judgemental and they turn me further and further away . I “could” quote chapter and verse on that but I will not abuse the Bible like that.
.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Just for clarification. I know Catholics on this supposedly Catholic answers forum sometimes refer to “ex” or former Catholics. But the title of this thread is actually misleading and could be potentially misleading to lurkers or anyone else trying to learn the faith here.

By “ex” if you mean former, there is no such thing. Nor is there a way in which to formally defect. Not according to actual Catholic Church teaching and the Catholic Church’s actual answers at least.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12323223&highlight=ex-Catholic#post12323223

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13411600&highlight=ex-Catholic#post13411600

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sorry if i offended you and im still not sure how. Im just curious why you would lable yourself “catholic” and state, here on a Catholic forum, how you have disassociated yourself from the Catholic church. Seems a bit confusing to me.

Peace be with you!!!

Maybe you should instead be curious as to why the Catholic Church considers someone who was once a Catholic always a Catholic and labels them as such.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12481633&postcount=2

 

[adf417]

Maybe you should instead be curious as to why the Catholic Church considers someone who was once a Catholic always a Catholic and labels them as such.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12481633&postcount=2

I used to be curious about that but after reading CCC and having my questions answered, im good. Still curious about Rosebud but im sure there is an explanation.

Peace!!!