Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

[bjames1728]

I did not stop quoting the article. The post exceeded the 6000 character limit. That is why I put in the link. You say “The key here is that admonishment, when and if necessary, is a personalized conversation that involves great prudence.” This is true, and If you think I am saying anything different, you are misreading the article. I am only listing the “what should be done”, I am not stating the “How it should be done”.

As for Rosebud77’s comment, many people have indicated great approval of the article. One person said it was the finest post they have seen on this forum. The basic fact still remains. People do go to hell, and if we know someone who is on that path, we are obligated to do something to try persuade them from that path. (Ezekiel 3: 16-19). How you do that is up to you. My post was mainly intended to be use as a tool, to help people explain why Cardinal Arinze’s statement is correct.

If you feel that this is an appropriate approach, despite any evidence to the contrary, then clearly I won’t dissuade you. I would only ask once more that you consider the full scope of your audience, the vast diversity of backgrounds of that audience, and consider the greater impact of how you communicate. While I have serious concerns with the content of your lecture, I will leave that to the theologically more capable to debate. As an aside, if you’re posts are regularly exceeding the 6000 char limit, that’s an indication that you need to consider a more terse style of writing.

 

[bjames1728]

One poster opined that you attend mass even if you are in a wheelchair and wearing an oxygen mask… exit Rosebud pursued by poster!

It totally repelled and appalled me. Put so much guilt on me.

WHY ? is this some power thing? Or insecurity?

I’m sorry this happened to you. I also have been surprised at the toxic level of discourse on this site. Charitably, I can only assume that people who say these things mean the best, but forget in their zeal how overly harsh written communication can be. As for the why, I don’t know. I’m as puzzled as you. My prayers for your health and your ministry to the least of God’s children.

 

[Rosebud77]

I’m sorry this happened to you. I also have been surprised at the toxic level of discourse on this site. Charitably, I can only assume that people who say these things mean the best, but forget in their zeal how overly harsh written communication can be. As for the why, I don’t know. I’m as puzzled as you. My prayers for your health and your ministry to the least of God’s children.

Thank you and I agree totally.I had no idea that there was this stream in RC.I have had it levelled at me so often as a Catholic by evangelicals that this came as an unwelcome surprise and it comes across as being OT not New Covenant all the time.

So I go back to Jesus and His words. Our Mediator and Advocate.

 

[Gertabelle]

Oh my goodness gracious!

I need to leave this thread. I have friends who have consciously rejected the Church and all belief in God. And I pray for them, and I offer sacrifices for them, and I try to love them and live as Christ for them – that they might come to know and accept the great love of God’s own heart for them.

To read the posts containing self-congratulating and self-serving comments like “I don’t want their blood on my hands” just breaks my heart and angers me.

Matthew 18:15
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother."

First of all, Our Lord say brother, as in, someone you know and love, with whom you have a close relationship.

Secondly, He says, if he sins against you, again betokening a sin against the fraternal nature of the relationship. For example, if I decide to start having a sexual relationship outside of marriage, the fraternal nature of my friendship with my son’s godmother would compel her to confront me about this – because my choice against the faith would damage our friendship, seeing as our relationship has the love of God as its very foundation!

But, if my female colleague at work takes up a relationship with another woman (she’s a lesbian) and tells me about it, I have no duty to tell her that she is sinning and will go to hell unless she gets right with God. Our relationship is based on our work together, and is not fraternal in any way.
Further, if I were to start preaching to her – so as not to have her “blood on my hands” – it would only serve to end the relationship, and most likely damage her view of God and of the Catholic faith. By God’s grace, I try to be a witness of God’s love for her, an any and every way God provides! So far, He has not opened the door for a discussion of religion.

Goodness, I need to get off this thread!

God bless one and all. May He grant us the grace to be light and salt to all those we encounter!

 

[Rosebud77]

Oh my goodness gracious!

I need to leave this thread. I have friends who have consciously rejected the Church and all belief in God. And I pray for them, and I offer sacrifices for them, and I try to love them and live as Christ for them – that they might come to know and accept the great love of God’s own heart for them.

To read the posts containing self-congratulating and self-serving comments like “I don’t want their blood on my hands” just breaks my heart and angers me.

Matthew 18:15
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother."

First of all, Our Lord say brother, as in, someone you know and love, with whom you have a close relationship.

Secondly, He says, if he sins against you, again betokening a sin against the fraternal nature of the relationship. For example, if I decide to start having a sexual relationship outside of marriage, the fraternal nature of my friendship with my son’s godmother would compel her to confront me about this – because my choice against the faith would damage our friendship, seeing as our relationship has the love of God as its very foundation!

But, if my female colleague at work takes up a relationship with another woman (she’s a lesbian) and tells me about it, I have no duty to tell her that she is sinning and will go to hell unless she gets right with God. Our relationship is based on our work together, and is not fraternal in any way.
Further, if I were to start preaching to her – so as not to have her “blood on my hands” – it would only serve to end the relationship, and most likely damage her view of God and of the Catholic faith. By God’s grace, I try to be a witness of God’s love for her, an any and every way God provides! So far, He has not opened the door for a discussion of religion.

Goodness, I need to get off this thread!

God bless one and all. May He grant us the grace to be light and salt to all those we encounter!

 

[zeland]

“Only God can judge BUT…” BUT? So you are wiser and more powerful than God?

Also I never think in terms of “trying to get to heaven”. You cannot earn that! That is in the Hands of God as is my trust and my life.

Can you help someone with threats? Jesus does not.

Are you saying that the will of God concerns being a Catholic? Or obeying Jesus in His Two great commandments?

Yes only God can judge. Not thee not I And is that not wonderful? That we do nto have to rely on our flawed minds?

Dear Rosebud

You sound very Protestant in your thinking. You are also misreading what I said. Your "wiser than God comment is incorrect. I will restate the sentence without the “But”, so as to make the meaning clearer - hopefully!

Only God can make the final judgment. It is also true that, while trying to get to heaven outside the Catholic Church is not impossible, it is more difficult, especially for an ex-Catholic. Being Catholic means following everything Jesus taught and commanded (Matt . 28:19-20).

As for “earning” heaven - we can certainly earn a higher place in heaven. In heaven, everyone’s cup will be full, but some cups will be bigger than others. If you never think in terms of "trying to get to heaven, then how do you increase your merit so as to have a higher place in heaven (a larger cup)?. A good priest I know, once said, “The more we think of hell in this life, the less likely we are to go there in the next life”. The opposite is also true - "The more we think of heaven in this life, the more likely we are to go there in the next life.

zeland

 

[zeland]

Rosebud77:
Oh dear! Here we go again. Makes me so sad for thee and I have a highly qualified Spiritual Director of my own so take no recommendations from strangers here

You said
"The basic fact still remains. People do go to hell, and if we know someone who is on that path, we are obligated to do something to try persuade them from that path. (Ezekiel)

The point is you do not know me. period.Or anyone else here. And what you are doing is dangerous in that anonymity . You work through threats? Why? Is that what the Catholic faith has come down to? And you wonder why folk leave? You threaten a lady of nearly 80 years!!! Who has nothing in here heart but love of the Lord Jesus and His needy ones?
I have no fear of Him. He is love and surrounds and showers me with that love.

Dear Rosebud,

I threaten no one - that statement is a product of your imagination. You say I don’t know you (true), but what do you mean by that; what is the point of the statement?

Will you help me understand something? Could you answer (if you don’t mind) the following questions, or as many as you can? These questions may seem irrelevant to out discussion, but they do have some bearing on it. If you don’t know the answer, just say “I don’t know”

Do you approve of Donald trump as president?

Should congress defund Planned Parent hood?

Who gives the best news coverage CNN or Fox News?

Who did you vote for in the Presidential election?

If a girlfriend of yours was considering an abortion and ask your advise about that, what would you tell her?

Would God condemn anyone to hell?

Do all the souls in hell suffer equally?

What do you think about Trump’s plan to build a wall?

What do you think about the second amendment?

Should President Trump not have accepted James Comey’s resignation?

Was a life-time prison sentence to harsh for Hitler?

zeland

 

[Rosebud77]

zeland, I am not reading your lengthy posts; period. Maybe ask yourself why? I have no interest in your ideas etc. Far too much else to do for Jesus and His people and as I said I have excellent care and help on all matters of faith…

OK?

OK!

Bless you!

 

[James248]

A person won’t be saved from falling off a very steep cliff if he rejects the rope being tossed to him. In the same manner, a person who is formerly Catholic but rejects Christ’s church has no means of salvation unless he repents.

 

[zeland]

So, you walk around warning everyone of every sin you see them committing for the sake of YOUR soul?

Over which souls exactly has God made you the watchman?

And how effective has it been for OTHER people’s souls for you to walk up and announce, “If you don’t repent and join (rejoin) the Catholic Church, you will most like go to hell”?

Personally, I think the passage in Ezekiel is directed at Bishops and perhaps pastors. I have certainly not been called to be the watchman of the souls of giant swaths of humanity. :nope:

But anyway, carry on with your discussion y’all.

Dear Gertabella,

“So, you walk around warning everyone of every sin you see them committing for the sake of YOUR soul?” Good heavens, some people would say that it sounds like you are “Judging” my intentions. You should refrain from making up somewhat, derogatory stories about other peoples motives.

Anyone who dies in the state of mortal sin goes to hell - period. Objectively, missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin. You should be able to figure out the consequences.

What souls are we to try to help? Not “Giant Swaths”, but whatever souls God places in our path in this life. Your personal interpretation of Ezekiel 3: 16-18 is incorrect. Private interpretation of scripture is not allowed - see 2 Peter 1:20 and 3: 16-18. Also, did you ever hear of the 7 spiritual works of mercy? The first three are: Instruct the ignorant; council the doubtful; and admonish the sinner. Those three are the reason for my post. Perhaps a brief review of your basic catechism would be in order.

One last question if you don’t mind, Are you a practicing Catholic, or a non-practicing one?

God bless.

zeland

 

[zeland]

zeland, I am not reading your lengthy posts; period. Maybe ask yourself why? I have no interest in your ideas etc. Far too much else to do for Jesus and His people and as I said I have excellent care and help on all matters of faith…

OK?

OK!

Bless you!

Dear Rosebud,

Thanks for your reply. I was reading some of your earlier posts, and I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. You said “Tuam ended the Church here in Ireland for me” What was Taum? I don’t know what that is referring to.

Thanks. God bless.

zeland

 

[zeland]

Hi Zeland,

Thank you for your response. If you don’t mind me asking when you say “objectively speaking” what do you mean? Because the way I interpret what you’re saying, that if they don’t return to the Catholic faith their salvation is in danger, is the way I think about this topic as well. Granted, we don’t know the heart of an individual or the graces God may bestow on them after death, but to say otherwise regarding the Catholic faith is to make the belief that the Catholic Church is essential for salvation kind of meaningless. What do you think?

Thanks again. And God bless you as well!

-Ernie-

Dear Ernie,

Thanks for your question. Objectively means looking at the basic facts of a situation without any modifying facts or information. Remember, there are three conditions for a mortal sin: First, the sin involves serious matter, then there is sufficient reflection - the person must know it is serious matter, and third, the person freely intends to commit that sinful action. For example. Missing Mass on Sunday, without a valid reason, is a mortal sin. So when a person decides to leave the Church, and the first Sunday they miss Mass, they commit a mortal sin.

However, God knows what is in the persons heart. Perhaps they didn’t realize that what they were doing was wrong, or maybe they were forced to leave by a parent or domineering spouse. These would be extenuating circumstances. Only God can make the final judgement.

The rest of your comments are correct except for: “the graces God may bestow on them after death”. We receive no graces after death. At the moment of death, the time of grace is over, the time of justice has come. After death, we can not merit any more grace!

Your last statement is correct: “to say otherwise regarding the Catholic faith is to make the belief that the Catholic Church is essential for salvation kind of meaningless” As Cardinal Arinze said: "The Catholic Church is not a free club (to come and go as you wish), it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ".…

I Hope this helps.

zeland

 

[ConfusedLucy]

It’s important to understand that churches can be very difficult places for some folk. I’ve recently been feeling called to pray for individuals who have some faith in their heart but cant cope with church right now. People have been hurt, let down, marginalized and abused by churches and it can really make people question what going to church has to do with following God.

 

[Ernie07]

The rest of your comments are correct except for: “the graces God may bestow on them after death”. We receive no graces after death. At the moment of death, the time of grace is over, the time of justice has come. After death, we can not merit any more grace!

Hi Zeland,

Thanks for your reply. I see what you’re saying about receiving no graces after death, but what I meant by “grace” is that God will “grace” us with the truth as a part of the judgment process. The truth will be revealed to those that die “invincibly ignorant” of Jesus and His Church. We don’t know how it will be revealed nor how judgment will be administered, but as Catholics we believe that they may still be saved. I confusingly termed that grace.

I also wanted to comment on some of the flack you’re getting from a few people on this thread. It seems to me that some are talking about being Catholic and following Jesus’ commandments as if they’re mutually exclusive when in fact they should be inseparable. To be Catholic is to fulfill the commandments of Jesus.

Yes, a person can love and follow Jesus and be saved without being a Catholic, but we also must never forget that Jesus built and protected His Church, which is the Catholic Church. If we truly believe that (and if we don’t then we are not a practicing Catholic) why would you leave His Church or not follow the Church’s teachings? Denying His Church is denying Him…unless you are “invincibly ignorant”. Those are just simply the facts…again assuming that a person is a practicing Catholic.

However, having said that, the horrible acts committed by the clergy cause people to leave the Church. Those awful acts committed by individual clergy have nothing to do with the graces offered by the Church as a whole through the sacraments or it’s overall authority, but many associate the sins of individuals to the Church as a whole. Understandable, but wrong and sad. Individuals can sin (even popes!) but the Church has never taught error. You either believe Jesus when He said that He would protect His Church or you don’t.

I guess maybe where some people are coming from is that we can only know so much regarding the grace of God related to judgment and maybe are taking your posts as being judgmental (I didn’t take it that way, but I’m very direct with people…others not so much so). But on the other hand, some people seem to be a little resistant to the fact that there is objective truth that has already been revealed to us through His Church. For whatever it’s worth I’d err on continuing to preach the truth in as charitable manner as you can and let the Holy Spirit work on the heart of those that resist the message.

God bless!

-Ernie-

 

[Rosebud77]

Dear Rosebud,

Thanks for your reply. I was reading some of your earlier posts, and I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. You said “Tuam ended the Church here in Ireland for me” What was Taum? I don’t know what that is referring to.

Thanks. God bless.

zeland

Tuam. google it? shocks that over there you do not know.

It has rocked Ireland. Made me literally sick and I am advised to stay where I am . Spiritually and medically. Shook my being to its very core. And i know folk whose family were affected and their suffering?

Where the nuns starved large numbers of babies to death then hid the bodies in disused septic tanks . Within living memory. Known about and sanctioned by the Church
add several other similar homes around ireland.

Nearly 1, 000 at that home alone.

The govt commission into Tuam and the other similar homes around Ireland is still at work. End of year

And Letterfrack… where young boys died needlessly as young as 4 , committed for some kind of crime. again google.

Jesus is my life. Always has been , always will be. Deeply thankful for and to Him. he knows and He loves.
I want no part in a church like this. People say well the sacraments matter etc and we must carry on regardless. But no . No.

So whether RC is the one true church? If so ?

Just has been too much abuse now.
I ache for it all

They did it in His Name.

Tears never far away on this. I prayed at the graveyard at Letterfrack . nearly 100 graves
small boys.

And am reminded of the words of Jesus about millstones and offences against children .

For Him now. My part is here alone in Prayer and work for others; for little ones to have food and live.

 

[Rosebud77]

Dear Ernie,

Thanks for your question. Objectively means looking at the basic facts of a situation without any modifying facts or information. Remember, there are three conditions for a mortal sin: First, the sin involves serious matter, then there is sufficient reflection - the person must know it is serious matter, and third, the person freely intends to commit that sinful action. For example. Missing Mass on Sunday, without a valid reason, is a mortal sin. So when a person decides to leave the Church, and the first Sunday they miss Mass, they commit a mortal sin.

However, God knows what is in the persons heart. Perhaps they didn’t realize that what they were doing was wrong, or maybe they were forced to leave by a parent or domineering spouse. These would be extenuating circumstances. Only God can make the final judgement.

The rest of your comments are correct except for: “the graces God may bestow on them after death”. We receive no graces after death. At the moment of death, the time of grace is over, the time of justice has come. After death, we can not merit any more grace!

Your last statement is correct: “to say otherwise regarding the Catholic faith is to make the belief that the Catholic Church is essential for salvation kind of meaningless” As Cardinal Arinze said: "The Catholic Church is not a free club (to come and go as you wish), it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ".…

I Hope this helps.

zeland

Not my belief. Period . All my earlier life was in the Church of England decades ago. So many holy ones. Loving Jesus and loved by Him. Not seeking “salvation” but to live by His word and love others.Obeying Him.

Thank you for affirming me in this.

 

[SyroMalankara]

What exactly was found there? Every article I googled has speculated that the nuns were not sympathetic and very cold, and that there were about 800 graves, perhaps an unused septic tank used as a burial site. Is there any detail as to the specifics of who, what, when, where, why and how? The early reports from the nuns were that the site was used as a burial ground for famine victims. That’s all.

 

[James248]

Which is why you learn to trust in Christ and not in people. That is one of the main reasons why people leave the Church: they’re caught up in the wrongs committed by people inside it that they forget the Founder.

 

[Rosebud77]

What exactly was found there? Every article I googled has speculated that the nuns were not sympathetic and very cold, and that there were about 800 graves, perhaps an unused septic tank used as a burial site. Is there any detail as to the specifics of who, what, when, where, why and how? The early reports from the nuns were that the site was used as a burial ground for famine victims. That’s all.

irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/q-a-the-tuam-babies-and-children-who-died-1.2998787

irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-names-of-the-796-children-who-died-1.3008263

independent.ie/irish-news/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-discovery-of-human-remains-35499737.html

What many of us found ultimately appalling was that when the srs sold the property, they exhumed the dozen sisters who had died, reburied them elsewhere with a fine momument, but left the children , no marked graves , no record of burials. Only the local folk honoured the dead,

And as some of the articles say? Baby trafficking was endemic and there is still that to emerge fully.

 

[Rosebud77]

Which is why you learn to trust in Christ and not in people. That is one of the main reasons why people leave the Church: they’re caught up in the wrongs committed by people inside it that they forget the Founder.

Excuse me? Please do not accuse any of us of forgetting Jesus . He is my Life .

These evils were done by people within the Church that is run and staffed by people.

And it is that Church I have walked away from . And which I honestly cannot ID as the Church founded by Jesus.

Not ever from Jesus. Not ever for one second.
It is because of this that I honestly cannot stay within the Church …

Not that given my increasing frailty I was able for Mass anyways. And am at peace in my solitude

Maybe and understandably so you over there cannot fully appreciate the devastation wrought by these events here. And I understand and appreciate that

I posted elsewhere re the reaction here to the news recently that a projected new national maternity hospital is to be owned by the Sisters of Charity

breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-national-maternity-hospital-needs-to-be-owned-by-the-state-788579.html

That white ribbon is the petition by the way

We are a small country, small population and so many families affected abuse.

would have signed the petition had it been possible. The insensitivity so soon after Tuam

I am not by the way opposing anyone staying in the church . I would never do that

But for me? No.