Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

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Rose; I do not see your posts.

And please now excuse me a while?

I am by the way an abuse survivor who freely forgives but has memories and whose trust has been shattered. Jharek ; the abusers include the Order you think so highly of so of course we have differing views. I leave all to God but walk away from many things

I am vby the way , heading for 80 years. Semi housebound and most of each day abed and in pain. My life us as a Solitary, a hermit ,and i have wonderful and compassionate spiritual support.

Whatever life is left to me is given to Prayer and to the work of my hands for others and these transcend all else. They really do.

Praying for all here in my solitude.

But no more of this for me thank you !

Bless you !
 
Rosebud77 said:
Rose; I do not see your posts.

And please now excuse me a while?

I am by the way an abuse survivor who freely forgives but has memories and whose trust has been shattered. Jharek ; the abusers include the Order you think so highly of so of course we have differing views. I leave all to God but walk away from many things

I am vby the way , heading for 80 years. Semi housebound and most of each day abed and in pain. My life us as a Solitary, a hermit ,and i have wonderful and compassionate spiritual support.

Whatever life is left to me is given to Prayer and to the work of my hands for others and these transcend all else. They really do.

Praying for all here in my solitude.

But no more of this for me thank you !

Bless you !
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Did you put me on ignore?
 
Rosebud77 said:
If that is what you want to see as truth that is your choice.

And thankfully you are not in any position to accuse and judge anyone.

Jesus is not the Church for Jesus is Perfect and the Church is not.

He is my Life and my Lord.

And i never have used and never would use the word “reject” .

OK? OK
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Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is His Body. If you reject the Church, you reject Christ.
 
You will need to speak up young man…cannot hear thee. Ah look at the time. … My SIlence is beginning… Over and out. Just Jesus now.
 
ConfusedLucy said:
It’s important to understand that churches can be very difficult places for some folk. I’ve recently been feeling called to pray for individuals who have some faith in their heart but cant cope with church right now. People have been hurt, let down, marginalized and abused by churches and it can really make people question what going to church has to do with following God.
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We don’t go to Mass to feel good, we go to Mass to praise God. It’s not about us, rather it is about Him.
 
My messages ain’t turned off. And the disrespect is real coming from Rosebud.
 
So how do we, as practising Catholics respond, when one of our rank cites a major reason for leaving the rites of the Church, as in Mass, Communion, Confession, to be because of the evils of times past, perpetrated within the Church.

To me , it is frustrating, divisive and can create scandal , if putting that seed in others minds.

Given attending Sunday Mass, each Sunday, is obligatory.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
So how do we, as practising Catholics respond, when one of our rank cites a major reason for leaving the rites of the Church, as in Mass, Communion, Confession, to be because of the evils of times past, perpetrated within the Church.

To me , it is frustrating, divisive and can create scandal , if putting that seed in others minds.

Given attending Sunday Mass, each Sunday, is obligatory.
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Hi Rose,
This is the question of the age for us practicing Catholics and I cant help but think our differing view and definitions of “church” is at the heart of the understanding.

If we only see the church as the invisible body of Christ made up of humans we will always be disapointed in this church and we will miss the perfectly sculpted Body of Christ that was made perfect and pure by the Lord Himself.

IMHO many people have been duped into the false dichotomy of the view of church as only the invisible body. While this is a good definition of “church” it is certainly not complete one and becomes misleading to the faithful and creates confusion within discussions.

For the human to find flaws in the church, defined only “as the invisable body”, is simply to point only to him/herself, but to find flaws in the true Body is simply impossible. IOW if there is a flaw to be found it cannot of the true Body making the clear distinction between the visable and the invisible, or the human and divine and for anyone to deny this is like denying God exists both humanly and divinely. Or to say the body of Christ is only invisible is like professing belief in Arian heresy which stated that Jesus was only human.

So for me the answer to your question is to continue ONLY in love and charity in all we do and remember that Jesus Himself could not convince ALL to follow.

Peace!!!
 
Tsuzuki said:
Simple. Repair the damage caused by the evils perpetrated within the Church, and prevent them from happening again.
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AMEN. THANK YOU.

Admit the guilt

And stop accusing those who have left and who are suffering as a result of abuse of evil. Show me where in the words of Jesus He is anything but compassionate.

Stop piling false guilt on suffering folk.
 
Rosebud77 said:
AMEN. THANK YOU.

Admit the guilt

And stop accusing those who have left and who are suffering as a result of abuse of evil. Show me where in the words of Jesus He is anything but compassionate.

Stop piling false guilt on suffering folk.
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We only address you. So if you want to turn us into villains, go ahead.

Even Jesus lambasted His enemies.
 
adf417 said:
Hi Rose,
This is the question of the age for us practicing Catholics and I cant help but think our differing view and definitions of “church” is at the heart of the understanding.

If we only see the church as the invisible body of Christ made up of humans we will always be disapointed in this church and we will miss the perfectly sculpted Body of Christ that was made perfect and pure by the Lord Himself.

IMHO many people have been duped into the false dichotomy of the view of church as only the invisible body. While this is a good definition of “church” it is certainly not complete one and becomes misleading to the faithful and creates confusion within discussions.

For the human to find flaws in the church, defined only “as the invisable body”, is simply to point only to him/herself, but to find flaws in the true Body is simply impossible. IOW if there is a flaw to be found it cannot of the true Body making the clear distinction between the visable and the invisible, or the human and divine and for anyone to deny this is like denying God exists both humanly and divinely. Or to say the body of Christ is only invisible is like professing belief in Arian heresy which stated that Jesus was only human.

So for me the answer to your question is to continue ONLY in love and charity in all we do and remember that Jesus Himself could not convince ALL to follow.

Peace!!!
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Exactly!
 
Its important to remember that we all have our limits when it comes to pain and suffering and we should try to have empathy for those who have reached the point where attending mass is something they cant cope with whether its due to physical illness, mental illness or hurt.

As for the church in Ireland there is clearly a loss of trust that will take a long time to rebuild and blaming those who have lost faith wont make things any better.
 
quote Originally Posted by Roseeurekacross View Post
So how do we, as practising Catholics respond, when one of our rank cites a major reason for leaving the rites of the Church, as in Mass, Communion, Confession, to be because of the evils of times past, perpetrated within the Church.end quote

To me , it is frustrating, divisive and can create scandal , if putting that seed in others minds.

Given attending Sunday Mass, each Sunday, is obligatory. end quote
adf417 said:
Hi Rose,
This is the question of the age for us practicing Catholics and I cant help but think our differing view and definitions of “church” is at the heart of the understanding.

If we only see the church as the invisible body of Christ made up of humans we will always be disapointed in this church and we will miss the perfectly sculpted Body of Christ that was made perfect and pure by the Lord Himself.

IMHO many people have been duped into the false dichotomy of the view of church as only the invisible body. While this is a good definition of “church” it is certainly not complete one and becomes misleading to the faithful and creates confusion within discussions.

For the human to find flaws in the church, defined only “as the invisable body”, is simply to point only to him/herself, but to find flaws in the true Body is simply impossible. IOW if there is a flaw to be found it cannot of the true Body making the clear distinction between the visable and the invisible, or the human and divine and for anyone to deny this is like denying God exists both humanly and divinely. Or to say the body of Christ is only invisible is like professing belief in Arian heresy which stated that Jesus was only human.

So for me the answer to your question is to continue ONLY in love and charity in all we do and remember that Jesus Himself could not convince ALL to follow.

Peace!!!
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ROSE, ADF gave a good reply which I would like to add to, given the importance of your point.

In an absolute sense there CAN BE NO valid REASON to leave the RCC. Which like Christ Himself is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE” {READ Hen 6:4-10]

What you’re speaking of are at best “excuses”…

It is a FACT that the Church like Jesus Himself is PERFECT and CANNOT sin. It is the people in the church who can and Do sin.

1 John 1: 6-10 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [8**] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Here are the FACTS one has to ignore in order to somehow justify there abandonment of GOD in Person, Himself

1 In the entire bible GOD has never approved, accepted, or even tolerated ANY other sets of faith beliefs or churches OTHER that the RCC
  1. Even GOD can have only one true set of faith beliefs; which He did not wait for the reformation to introduce
  2. the ONLY God approved method of sin forgiveness is Catholic [or Orthodox] Sacramental Confession as GODS Norm! Anything else is fraught with danger if not absolutely PERFECT, which GOD making that judgment call.
  3. ONLY in the Mass is Jesus [GOD] Really, Truly and Substantially made PRESENT!
  4. GOD will, because as GOD He must make final judgment upon each Soul NOT based on what that Souls CHOOSE to believe, accept and live;…NO! It will be as it must be; based on what GOD has made possible for each soul to know, accept, live and believe.
God Bless you,
Thanks

Patrick
 
Dear Jharek,

Thanks for the clarification, as I am not familiar with the situation in Ireland.

zeland
 
Tsuzuki said:
Sorry. I thought you were asking how to fix problems, not ignore them with a clear conscience.
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Did you read my earlier posts about my Parish, my Diocese. We don’t ignore anything. What happened in my Parish is discussed. Acknowledged , worked through from a preventative view. People get the help they need or want.

There is no turning back the clock. You can’t undo a criminal action.

My question is

""Originally Posted by Roseeurekacross View Post
So how do we, as practising Catholics respond, when one of our rank cites a major reason for leaving the rites of the Church, as in Mass, Communion, Confession, to be because of the evils of times past, perpetrated within the Church.

To me , it is frustrating, divisive and can create scandal , if putting that seed in others minds.

Given attending Sunday Mass, each Sunday, is obligatory.""

My first response is don’t let evil win. Show solidarity. Show support for your church, your Priest, your Bishop and your God by refusing to be run out of town, Churchwise.

Today , I spend time with victim families, I spend time with people whose Parish Priest was Risdale. Google him to understand what I am saying.
We have no confessional boxes because of him and people like him.

Should we be run off from Confession because of the sins of one Ex Priest, known for driving miles to hear rural confession when he was asked?

Understand my question now?

I get this comment. ’ why are you going into that Church, don’t you know it’s history? Don’t you know about those Priests/brothers /laity/ that current Cardinal’

Hey if you don’t want attend Mass, that’s between you and God. But don’t continue citing the reasons as sins of the past
 
Rosebud77 said:
AMEN. THANK YOU.

Admit the guilt

And stop accusing those who have left and who are suffering as a result of abuse of evil. Show me where in the words of Jesus He is anything but compassionate.

Stop piling false guilt on suffering folk.
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Since you are reading me, so think of this. And I am not piling guilt on any suffering. I am living this Rosebud. I sit in Mass with victims of the most horrible abuse. And families torn apart by it. Google Risdale the Priest.

Everyone is trying to heal , come to terms with what happened. Find a new starting point. And we have very strong leadership in this journey, in our Bishop. He inherited this himself.
The Bishop Emeritus, on celebrating Mass with only 10 people on a Sunday, said that the numbers were directly due to the abuse, the evil recent past.

Last year was the Jubilee year of Mercy. Walking through the Doors of Mercy at my Cathedral on a regular basis, if and when conditions were right, we were granted a Papal Indulgence.
20 years earlier, those evil ex priests/ brothers/ laity were pushing open the same doors.

So should we say nope, not going through the Doors of Mercy because evil walked through them?

Or should we say begone satan, you lost, The Church still stands. We celebrate the Eucharist on the same alter that evil ex priest also celebrated Mass, and gave Communion.

We are strong! We pray our faith is built on a rock.

( I reckon my Bishop is a Saint in formation)
 
You mean very well in what you said but NOT completely true! A question was posed similar to this on another site and the following was the answer given by the priest.

Let say first off, that salvation is always attainable for someone who is repentant, for God is happy to extend his mercy.

As for someone who leaves the Church, there are lots of factors to figure in. For instance, was the person genuinely not being fed spiritually in the Church? The onus might be on others in this case.

Or did the person neglect his Catholic faith and thus slowly lose it? Faith is a gift that needs to be nourished with prayer and the sacraments and study and acts of charity. If a person neglects, say, attendance at Mass or the sacrament of confession, then it is easy to see how he falls away. There would be culpability in that case.

There might other factors that cause people to drift away from the Church – scandals, for instance. It is unfortunate that people walk away from the Eucharist and the other sacraments because of the faults of humans. Our Lord alone can judge the hearts and minds of people.

So let’s say the short answer to your question can be yes, but with lots of qualifications.

People might subjectively believe in their heart that they are doing the right thing by joining a denomination. They have a right to follow their conscience, and by following their conscience they could attain salvation.

Nevertheless, the Church was established by Christ and remains the ordinary avenue of salvation.
 
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