Can God ACTUALLY judge everyone?

[Kathleen18]

Well if that is the point everyone is trying to make then I am sorry, saying "God’s ways are not our ways " is just an easy copout with literally any problem regarding theology.

You might think that I am not having enough humility, but I just can’t mentally concieve it.

Who said it has anything to do with our rational brains as mere humans? Have you tried pondering and listening with your heart and spirit? Have you prayed for understanding?

 

[AIPM1615]

Yeah while we have free will, we are uncovering that its more and more determined by biological factors (personality, how emotional we are,etc) and social factors (how we were brought up and where we were brought up)

That isn’t a recent discovery.

Everyone has to deal with the moral problems of their own culture.

You said it!

Hypothetically if somebody were to be raised in a culture and family that are heavily immoral, (where killing is tolerated ,etc…) that person is going to end up living his whole life immoraly, and the lowered culpability is not going to help him in any way.

There was recently a thread asking if the Mayans were all damned because they culturally practiced human sacrifice, and perhaps by no fault of their own knew it was wrong to murder. I think that to an extent there is reduced culpability, but murder is an action contrary to nature, so I have to wonder if there’s a point where it can’t be excused any longer.

They get brainwashed to think God wants them to kill themselves and that it’s a good thing. Through no fault of their own, they commit a grave sin.

To some extent, this is correct.

Why are we so deterministic (there is supportive evidence) when we have free will to pick between good and bad?

Biological and cultural factors don’t negate free will.

Why is the judgment system so improperly made?

How do you define a “proper” justice system?

If both of the above can’t be answered, can God actually judge everyone even with the different criteria?

Yes.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

How do you define a “proper” justice system?

DetectiveNiko:

Well I would say one where people can’t be controlled by outside forces to commit a crime (When I say this I mean societal and biological problems, not like death threats) and instead choose to do good when they want to do good and bad when they want to do bad.
Also one where 50 % of the people partaking in it avoid life on earth in the first place, which I would imagine is supposed to be like a test.

Biological and cultural factors don’t negate free will.

How do you know that is true though ? What if all of our free will is an experience steming from biological and cultural factors. Psychology is atleast heading in that direction.

but murder is an action contrary to nature,

not necessarily, there are plenty of animals who kill their own (there are certain female spiders who tend to kill their male counterpart after mating )
and there is nothing in nature that says no to murder, its society which usually teaches us morals that tells us that murder is bad.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Have you prayed for understanding?

Yes plenty times.

Have you tried pondering and listening with your heart and spirit?

Well my heart tells me none of this makes sense, and that its all made up, should I listen to it now ? Well not like a have a choice to listen to it or not, I am determined to believe in it anyway.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Did you even read like anything past the title ?
I laid arguments for it that you didn’t even adress.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Well my problem is not having faith, its when the Church says that belief is God is not stationed in just faith but reason also , while things seem heavily unreasonable to me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

By “reason” they mean things like the works of St. Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas didn’t put God on the same level with any man-made legal system.

The reason things look unreasonable to you is because you’re putting God into a flawed man-made system. The system is flawed because fallible men who do not possess anywhere near the faculties of God created the system. God’s own system is not going to have these flaws and problems.

 

[ErraticFaith]

Far too many flaws in your opening statement.

Amongst others; is this supposition that people are likely to be defined by their area of origin/birth. In my own life experience this is demonstrably false. Your circumstances don’t define you, they simply present easier roads and obstacles; depending on what you want ultimately, for yourself.

Can some people be shaped by their surrounds, certainly. But saying ‘all’ is just wishful generalisation,

You seem to be appealing to an idea that psychology and science, for want of a better way of putting it, has replaced free will.

‘Free will’ is as simple as the summation of all of our personal choices over the duration of our life, given a definition/title.

Of course God can judge these perfectly. He doesn’t just see ‘what’ but ‘why’ at the same time. Because he can judge with 100% accuracy on these, he is ‘just’ in applying absolute judgement to them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Of course God can judge these perfectly. He doesn’t just see ‘what’ but ‘why’ at the same time. Because he can judge with 100% accuracy on these he is just in applying absolute judgement.

Precisely.
Human judgment systems are flawed because we don’t operate with 100% accuracy and are never going to have 100% of the pertinent information because we can’t read people’s minds or know exactly their motive, their entire background, what brought them to this point etc. We judge based on a subset of evidence that is allowed to be brought to court under our rules and that the parties and their lawyers actually choose to present.

Human judges also always bring their own biases to the table. Even if they strive very hard to be totally unbiased, I think it’s impossible. You’re necessarily going to have some bias based on your own training and your own experiences in the past.

There’s no picking and choosing when you’re before God. He sees everything. He knows everything. He understands everything. And he judges it all with a complete lack of any bias.

 

[AIPM1615]

Well I would say one where people can’t be controlled by outside forces to commit a crime (When I say this I mean societal and biological problems, not like death threats) and instead choose to do good when they want to do good and bad when they want to do bad.

I would argue that isn’t even possible.

How do you know that is true though ? What if all of our free will is an experience steming from biological and cultural factors. Psychology is atleast heading in that direction.

A young Catholic has two options: get up and go to Sunday Mass, or play Call of Duty all morning.
I don’t think you can honestly tell me that his “biological disposition” will make him sin — that is, to avoid his Sunday obligation and instead play video games. I’ve been guilty of this before. My American culture would certainly prefer I skip Mass, but that would not lessen my culpability because i know better than to do it.

not necessarily, there are plenty of animals who kill their own (there are certain female spiders who tend to kill their male counterpart after mating )

and there is nothing in nature that says no to murder, its society which usually teaches us morals that tells us that murder is bad.

Nature is, in a colloquial sense, all the non-human “living stuff” out there. The forests, animals, etc. That is not what I mean by nature though. Classical philosophy goes into this in great depth, but the gist of it is things acting towards their final cause, or “goal.” And I don’t mean that in an arbitrary sense.

I think you’d greatly benefit from learning about these things (I can recommend good and easy-to-read books, DM me). Without a good foundation in philosophy it’s easy to go nuts. Hence why I’m pursuing it as a double major in college

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Amongst others; is this supposition that people are likely to be defined by their area of origin/birth. In my own life experience this is demonstrably false. Your circumstances don’t define you, they simply present easier roads and obstacles; depending on what you want ultimately, for yourself.

That is why I propsed that it seems to be that, but its actually an illusion. Have you watched the video I posted?
Also we are pretty likely defined by our origin/birth, but thats not the only way to become defined. We also get socially defined. Maybe society is like an organism that tries to expand towards the good, and in the process everyone gets changed by it. Go back a tausand years and I will be pretty sure you would be believing in some other morals than you do today. Morals are reasoned to based on the avalible information, and are not gained at birth as many christians believe. That is the whole point. Why though ? If you make a judgment system with a million exceptions, is it really a judgment system in the first place ?

Of course God can judge these perfectly. He doesn’t just see ‘what’ but ‘why’ at the same time. Because he can judge with 100% accuracy on these, he is ‘just’ in applying absolute judgement to them.

How can they if they never made good or bad decisions, but only imposed knowledge on the good and bad. They don’t think with their head , they just "Feel " what is right.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

I would argue that isn’t even possible.

How so ? If you are are an all loving God planning a system of justice (Heaven and hell) wouldn’t you make the human species not be determined by outside factors ? Surely if you are all-powerful, unless your plan is to decieve everyone into thinking that they are doing the right thing, when in fact they might be doing the exact opposite. Its the whole reason gay marriage debates even exsist, because some people think its good and some think its bad.

A young Catholic has two options: get up and go to Sunday Mass, or play Call of Duty all morning.

I don’t think you can honestly tell me that his “biological disposition” will make him sin — that is, to avoid his Sunday obligation and instead play video games.

Yes but what if the choices you make is just what your brain find more worthy at the moment ? Both have its ups and downs if you think about it, and it just looks at what outweighs the bad. If we had something like a soul that is not controlled by the rest of the body , I would say your premise makes sense but the fact is, what Aquinas thought a soul was (the reason we experience conciousness and that its instilled into us by birth , more specifically sexual mating) has been proven to be false.

, but the gist of it is things acting towards their final cause, or “goal.”

I wouldn’t but some would argue that even a goal is something that we humans create and that without consciousness to experience it nothing would have a goal.

Without a good foundation in philosophy it’s easy to go nuts

You can tell me that twice. It has been keeping me on an exsistential crisis for atleast half a year. But I decided not to be scared of the truth, and instead face it, contrary to how many people just shrug it off because they don’t want to feel bad.

 

[AIPM1615]

Amongst others; is this supposition that people are likely to be defined by their area of origin/birth. In my own life experience this is demonstrably false. Your circumstances don’t define you, they simply present easier roads and obstacles; depending on what you want ultimately, for yourself.

I agree. I read a book in high school, Native Son by Richard Wright. The basis of it is this. A kid is raised in a slummy black neighborhood, and because he’s surrounded by violence, he has no choice but to perpetuate that reality in his own life.

That kid still had the chance to change himself. He was not a robot programmed to kill people. The same is true of all these twisted freaks who shoot up schools. They might have mental issues, or have been abused by their parents, or bullied, or God knows what else, but they aren’t doomed until they assume their fate themselves.

It’s different when you have a culture like the Mayans (in my previous example) where human sacrifice was the norm. But that’s perhaps on a macro scale. Most situations are not like that today.

‘Free will’ is as simple as the summation of all of our personal choices over the duration of our life, given a definition/title.

Yes, it’s different than the neurological idea that our brain makes split-second decisions that render our consciousness ineffective. I happen to agree that our biological tendencies would play a role in this. But you can’t seriously tell me that neurons are going to pick what brand of car I get. I may be from a family of Chevrolet owners, but believe me, it’s not a biological decision. Theology would agree - ultimately, you do have a choice.

Of course God can judge these perfectly. He doesn’t just see ‘what’ but ‘why’ at the same time. Because he can judge with 100% accuracy on these, he is ‘just’ in applying absolute judgement to them.

Yes, the one who sustains the very existence of reality has every prerogative to judge effectively.

 

[po18guy]

I see nothing but classic over-thinking and pretzel logic.

Sorry.

 

[AIPM1615]

Yes but what if the choices you make is just what your brain find more worthy at the moment ? Both have its ups and downs if you think about it, and it just looks at what outweighs the bad. If we had something like a soul that is not controlled by the rest of the body , I would say your premise makes sense but the fact is, what Aquinas thought a soul was (the reason we experience conciousness and that its instilled into us by birth , more specifically sexual mating) has been proven to be false.

That is not what we consider the soul to be.
However, don’t fall into the reductionist trap of believing that everything can be traced back to some neurons firing. The pop science journals would have you believe it, but there is no consensus whatsoever in neurology or philosophy of mind. Our consciousness is a mystery - albeit a mystery that is reliant upon a working brain to function properly.

I wouldn’t but some would argue that even a goal is something that we humans create and that without consciousness to experience it nothing would have a goal.

Not “goal” as in “I want to wash my car today!” Goal is in “the heart pumps blood.”
It’s not a conscious goal, it’s a natural end to which things are directed.

 

[ErraticFaith]

As I said, you seem set on the idea that we are ‘likely defined by origin and birth’, which I don’t agree with as a statement.

Perhaps I’m misreading your wording.

Perceived definition, simply because the majority are taught that it is ‘all that they are’, is not the same as it actually being true.

Every last free thinking person I’ve come to know, hasn’t been over influenced by their origins at all.

They do have an understanding and appreciation for it, but - every last one of them also elected to act in contrary to it. Which isn’t surprising, considering the woefully pitiful state of modern western society.

Since I am resolute in my theological opinion, I find it sincerely difficult to entertain an alternative. That’s not to say I don’t find it interesting but since I know God is fact, I can’t reasonably say that biological imperatives are responsible for freedom of thought or a persons impression of free will; because I know they aren’t as a logical follow on.

Feeling is just a description of something far more complex. We could examine the scientific and biological angle indefinitely and be no closer to any conclusion. For the most part it’s insubstantial.

Action and consequence are absolute across the human experience. What we feel or don’t about them as individuals is irrelevant.

 

[ErraticFaith]

Correct. Imposition of lifestyle or attitude because of common majority - is exactly that, ‘common’. But it’s still a choice.

So many seem to believe that they are litte more than the social climate in which they find themselves. Something like ‘if you’d have been born in Saudi Arabia you wouldn’t even be Christian!’

You clearly already understand. Which is refreshing to see.

For everyone else there is that time old statement.

‘As you think, so shall you become’.

 

[AIPM1615]

Something like ‘if you’d have been born in Saudi Arabia you wouldn’t even be Christian!’

The good old genetic fallacy

 

[DetectiveNiko]

But you can’t seriously tell me that neurons are going to pick what brand of car I get.

But think about it you never chose which car you like. The thought just pops out in your head with no basis is anything. And when it does have a base its mostly a psychological one ( you liking a certain colour etc)

But that’s perhaps on a macro scale. Most situations are not like that today.

Yes perhaps that is the reason people believe they are the ones making the decisions to change. With a pile of micro influences comes a big influence.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

That is not what we consider the soul to be.

Then how do you define the soul ? Aquinas thought you could prove it, but I don’t see any way of doing that. Consciousness alone does not guarantee that its the soul controlling the body. In fact there is plenty of evidence against it, like simply falling unconcious. You don’t know what happend , but it should be just your body not being aware , you should still be concious within your soul right ? Or the people with a brain injury that see lets say a red dot and their brain registers the dot, but their conciousness is completely unaware of it because of the injury. They ask the patients if they see a dot and they say no, but when they ask him where it is they can precisely p(name removed by moderator)oint the location of it.

Goal is in “the heart pumps blood.”

It’s not a conscious goal, it’s a natural end to which things are directed.

Well thats also a part of what I meant and thats why I said I wouldn’t really argue it while some would be ready to press you even on that. Its one of the reasons I am still searching for God despite so many things that make him seem unlikely to me.