Can God Create a Universe that has an infinite past?

[ReapReason]

I think God can. But only if we stop considering creation in temporal terms.
If we understand Gods creative act to be outside of time, and also that God is the very act of reality in which and through which physical essences have their being, then it would not matter if the universe has an infinite regress, since God is the reality by which all physical events are sustained in being, and therefore all physical events have an existential beginning. All potential events would be contingent upon Gods act of reality in order to exist and remain real because they have no intrinsic reality of their own. This is a form of creation. This of course would require people to understand that there is a objective distinction between the act of reality and the essence of any potential nature.

 

[Ohana]

Didn’t (as far as we know). God doesn’t do silly stuff.

 

[BCRaven05]

I believe the answer is no, and it seems similar to the question “Can God create a rock that is so large even He can’t lift it?”

The issue is that the question is impossible, not God. It is like saying “Can God create a round square?” There is a logical contradiction here (I believe this is from C.S. Lewis).

I think this applies here, as I believe only God is infinite, and this world had to have had a beginning, just as it will ultimatley have an end.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

I believe the answer is no, and it seems similar to the question “Can God create a rock that is so large even He can’t lift it?”

The issue is that the question is impossible, not God. It is like saying “Can God create a round square?” There is a logical contradiction here (I believe this is from C.S. Lewis).

I think this applies here, as I believe only God is infinite, and this world had to have had a beginning, just as it will ultimatley have an end.

Yep. The quote is: “Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning because we prefix to them the two other words (“Can God”).”

 

[rossum]

I think God can. But only if we stop considering creation in temporal terms.
If we understand Gods creative act to be outside of time, and also that God is the very act of reality in which and through which physical essences have their being, then it would not matter if the universe has an infinite regress, since God is the reality by which all physical events are sustained in being, and therefore all physical events have an existential beginning. All potential events would be contingent upon Gods act of reality in order to exist and remain real because they have no intrinsic reality of their own. This is a form of creation. This of course would require people to understand that there is a objective distinction between the act of reality and the essence of any potential nature.

You seem to be talking about Omphalism, colloquially known as ‘Last Thursdayism’: was the world created last Thursday, with all the signs of apparent age in place?

The best Christian argument I have seem against this is by Theodosius Dobzhansky:
One of the early antievolutionists, P. H. Gosse, published a book entitled Omphalos (“the Navel”). The gist of this amazing book is that Adam, though he had no mother, was created with a navel, and that fossils were placed by the Creator where we find them now - a deliberate act on His part, to give the appearance of great antiquity and geologic upheaveals. It is easy to see the fatal flaw in all such notions. They are blasphemies, accusing God of absurd deceitfulness. This is as revolting as it is uncalled for.

Source: Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution.

Such deception might be possible from Loki/Trickster but not, I think, from the Abrahamic God.

rossum

 

[Andre1000]

I believe the answer is no, and it seems similar to the question “Can God create a rock that is so large even He can’t lift it?”

The issue is that the question is impossible, not God. It is like saying “Can God create a round square?” There is a logical contradiction here (I believe this is from C.S. Lewis).

I think this applies here, as I believe only God is infinite, and this world had to have had a beginning, just as it will ultimatley have an end.

So God is not able to create contradictions? Is logic mightier than God?
Is logic a Super God? NO!!! God can do that, God can do everything, God can do a round square! Resurrection is also impossible, it is a logical contradiction, how to REsurrect(the RE is important) something that does not exist anymore(when the body died, after sometime there is nothing anymore).
God created the logic!

 

[ReapReason]

Didn’t (as far as we know). God doesn’t do silly stuff.

What a ridiculous thing to say on a philosophy forum

 

[ReapReason]

I believe the answer is no, and it seems similar to the question “Can God create a rock that is so large even He can’t lift it?”

The issue is that the question is impossible, not God. It is like saying “Can God create a round square?” There is a logical contradiction here (I believe this is from C.S. Lewis).

I think this applies here, as I believe only God is infinite, and this world had to have had a beginning, just as it will ultimatley have an end.

You have made a comparison to known contractions without giving an argument as to why those comparisons apply. In any case, I am not so much concerned with whether or not an infinite regress is possible, as much as I am concerned with whether or not an infinite regress would undermine Gods role as a creator.

 

[ReapReason]

Yep. The quote is: “Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning because we prefix to them the two other words (“Can God”).”

And an assertion does not amount to a rebuttal merely because it is uttered.

 

[ReapReason]

You seem to be talking about Omphalism, colloquially known as ‘Last Thursdayism’: was the world created last Thursday, with all the signs of apparent age in place?

rossum

I have a challenge for you. Explain what part of my argument leads to your conclusion that I am arguing for Last Thursdayism.

Do that, and it might encourage me to have some respect for you as a thinker.

 

[rossum]

I have a challenge for you. Explain what part of my argument leads to your conclusion that I am arguing for Last Thursdayism.

Do that, and it might encourage me to have some respect for you as a thinker.

That the apparent past of the universe is different from the actual past of the universe. What we can see of the universe is deceptive, and the deceiver is He who created the universe with a false appearance of age.

rossum

 

[ReapReason]

So God is not able to create contradictions? Is logic mightier than God?
Is logic a Super God? NO!!! God can do that, God can do everything, God can do a round square! Resurrection is also impossible, it is a logical contradiction, how to REsurrect(the RE is important) something that does not exist anymore(when the body died, after sometime there is nothing anymore).
God created the logic!

God did not create logic. Logic is objectively rooted first and for most in the fact that God is the antithesis of nothing. God is the act of reality, and thus a thing is logical insofar as it does not contradict Gods being. Its metaphysical logic insofar as we apply rational thought to reality. For example if absolutely nothing existed, then this would be a contradiction because nothing is not objectively real.

 

[Baelor]

You have made a comparison to known contractions without giving an argument as to why those comparisons apply. In any case, I am not so much concerned with whether or not an infinite regress is possible, as much as I am concerned with whether or not an infinite regress would undermine Gods role as a creator.

You yourself admit the contradiction. You state that God is a creator, which means that he predated the universe. That in turn means that the past of said universe cannot be infinite.

This is clearly a logical contradiction; if you meant something else, then you will need to specify or explain in what way this logical contradiction applies. I would have assumed that the comparisons to other logical contradictions are obvious, given that the contradiction in your own post is similarly obvious. Asking us to consider creation outside the temporal sphere is too vague and undeveloped a thought.

If there is infinite regress, then the universe cannot have been created because it always was.

 

[Equites_Christi]

I will say upfront that I did not entirely understand your post. I will address what I have taken from it.

If we shouldn’t consider creation in temporal terms, then isn’t it meaningless to speak of a “past” at all, finite or infinite, being a specifically temporal term?

I think the problem is that in Catholic theology we consider the universe to be in time, while God is not. Temporal creation, eternal creator.

And if the universe is within time, then it cannot have an infinite past, because in time past moves to present. An infinite past will never move from itself to the present by virtue of its infinity. Hence to assert such is to assert that there can never be a present.

The problem with an infinite regress is that it never begins. If we are going to assert that we are somewhere within time, then we must concede that it began.

 

[ReapReason]

You yourself admit the contradiction. You state that God is a creator, which means that he predated the universe. .

It is nonsensical to speak of a non-physical God as pre-dating time.

 

[ReapReason]

I will say upfront that I did not entirely understand your post. I will address what I have taken from it.

If we shouldn’t consider creation in temporal terms, then isn’t it meaningless to speak of a “past” at all, finite or infinite, being a specifically temporal term?

.

Sorry. I intended to mean the “act of creating”, rather than creation itself.

 

[ReapReason]

That the apparent past of the universe is different from the actual past of the universe. What we can see of the universe is deceptive, and the deceiver is He who created the universe with a false appearance of age.

rossum

Where do I speak of an apparent past? Please quote this, and quote it in context.

 

[Baelor]

It is nonsensical to speak of a non-physical God as pre-dating time.

No one is saying this.

But only if we stop considering creation in temporal terms.

What does this mean?

If we understand Gods creative act to be outside of time

What does this mean? At what time in the history of the universe did time get introduced? Or do you deny its existence even now?

then it would not matter if the universe has an infinite regress,

This is impossible. Either time has always existed, in which case the universe is not infinite, or time has not always existed. The latter can be divided into two further possibilities: time began after physical creation, or time does not exist. The former would need to be explained; the latter as well.

 

[ReapReason]

If there is infinite regress, then the universe cannot have been created because it always was.

Not if God is the act of reality in which and through which the physical essence of the universe has its continuous being.

 

[triumphguy]

I think God can. But only if we stop considering creation in temporal terms.
If we understand Gods creative act to be outside of time, and also that God is the very act of reality in which and through which physical essences have their being, then it would not matter if the universe has an infinite regress, since God is the reality by which all physical events are sustained in being, and therefore all physical events have an existential beginning. All potential events would be contingent upon Gods act of reality in order to exist and remain real because they have no intrinsic reality of their own. This is a form of creation. This of course would require people to understand that there is a objective distinction between the act of reality and the essence of any potential nature.

If the Universe is created and has it’s own internal logic (including an infinite past), that does not mean that God cannot create it using His own external logic.