Can God decide?

[STT]

Of course he does things, but never by deciding; he moves in delight, which is timeless and not a means to an end; he moves in the movement of operation in joy, not in the movement of becoming complete.

Perfection, completeness, being in Act, does not mean no movement. Some beings are complete in a state of Rest (non-movement at a goal or end); others are complete in an movement of operation in their being. That is God. Always in Act, always complete, always in a movement of joy in his completeness.

God is always “at Rest” (in Act, complete, perfect), and he is always working (in Operation as Complete God).

Good answer. Does God decide for His actions?

 

[Vico]

Decision requires options. Option is potential. This means that decision requires potentiality which is absence in God (God is pure actuality). Hence God cannot decide.

You are only considering one meaning. There are many meanings give there.

 

[John_Martin]

Good answer. Does God decide for His actions?

No, there is no decision.
From our perspective it “appears” as if he is deciding, because we cannot see all in one seeing. When a young mans sees many young women, he sees one at a time as he is coming to understand that he wants to not be alone but be married. So it is to him a choice of “yes” or “no” as each appears in his sight, until finally there is choice to ask one of them. But he does not see ahead of time the being born of all of them so that only those are ever born, and he does not see ahead of time already which one he desires, he does not see ahead of time which he will be asking, as if he were the maker of his own future by his own “imagination” or knowing. So, to him it is all choice of what appears one at a time before him.

With God, there is creation of what God has always known he will create in time, matching his knowing of it all, but there is not a choice of “what shall I make and what shall I not make?” If there is knowing in God of things he will not create, he has always known he will not create them, and he does not.

An architect sees ahead of time the design of a house, so when he has it built, there is no choice by the builders of what to build (although, they will pick and choose lumber, perhaps, to suit his design, as means to the end of the finished product).

 

[STT]

You are only considering one meaning. There are many meanings give there.

Which definition do you have in mind?

 

[STT]

No, there is no decision.
From our perspective it “appears” as if he is deciding, because we cannot see all in one seeing. When a young mans sees many young women, he sees one at a time as he is coming to understand that he wants to not be alone but be married. So it is to him a choice of “yes” or “no” as each appears in his sight, until finally there is choice to ask one of them. But he does not see ahead of time the being born of all of them so that only those are ever born, and he does not see ahead of time already which one he desires, he does not see ahead of time which he will be asking, as if he were the maker of his own future by his own “imagination” or knowing. So, to him it is all choice of what appears one at a time before him.

With God, there is creation of what God has always known he will create in time, matching his knowing of it all, but there is not a choice of “what shall I make and what shall I not make?” If there is knowing in God of things he will not create, he has always known he will not create them, and he does not.

An architect sees ahead of time the design of a house, so when he has it built, there is no choice by the builders of what to build (although, they will pick and choose lumber, perhaps, to suit his design, as means to the end of the finished product).

I understand what you are saying but the picture of God as it is presented is only acceptable if God has no choice. Did God have any choice to create us or not? A decision in this regards is required if the answer to this question is yes.

I would like to take the attention of your fellow friends on your opinion too so perhaps they could resolve the situation.

 

[John_Martin]

I understand what you are saying but the picture of God as it is presented is only acceptable if God has no choice. Did God have any choice to create us or not? A decision in this regards is required if the answer to this question is yes.

I would like to take the attention of your fellow friends on your opinion too so perhaps they could resolve the situation.

We were not ideas floating around which God found out about, and then looked at the ideas that he found and then thought, “I could create these people and this creation if I chose to because I am powerful enough.”

There is no beginning to the idea of you and of me, where at one time God did not imagine us, and then in the next instant he thought “Oh, I could create John and create STT…, should I? It looks like I like the idea; okay, I choose to create them.”

No, in eternity God knows himself creating us at the right time, and knows us writing these lines to each other."
When he creates Abraham, he knows himself creating us. Notice the present tense of the verbs; Abraham lived well before us, but God knows himself creating Abraham and us.

Think about the name of God, like in the Psalm, It is not, “The LORD is my shepherd…”

The actual Psalm is, “I AM is my shepherd, I shall not want… surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of I AM forever.”

 

[Vico]

Which definition do you have in mind?

Man describes providence using temporal terms, for example in scripture. Several words are used there from the definitions shown below:

decide verb (used with object), decided, deciding.

• to solve or conclude (a question, controversy, or struggle) by giving victory to one side:
• The judge decided the case in favor of the plaintiff.
• to determine or settle (something in dispute or doubt):
• to decide an argument.
• to bring (a person) to a decision; persuade or convince:
• The new evidence decided him.

verb (used without object), decided, deciding.
to settle something in dispute or doubt:

• The judge decided in favor of the plaintiff.
• to make a judgment or determine a preference; come to a conclusion.

 

[STT]

We were not ideas floating around which God found out about, and then looked at the ideas that he found and then thought, “I could create these people and this creation if I chose to because I am powerful enough.”

There is no beginning to the idea of you and of me, where at one time God did not imagine us, and then in the next instant he thought “Oh, I could create John and create STT…, should I? It looks like I like the idea; okay, I choose to create them.”

No, in eternity God knows himself creating us at the right time, and knows us writing these lines to each other."
When he creates Abraham, he knows himself creating us. Notice the present tense of the verbs; Abraham lived well before us, but God knows himself creating Abraham and us.

Think about the name of God, like in the Psalm, It is not, “The LORD is my shepherd…”

The actual Psalm is, “I AM is my shepherd, I shall not want… surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of I AM forever.”

I know all these things. I am asking whether God has the ability to decide about creation in His eternal now. We are not talking about a being if you think that God cannot decide.

 

[Vico]

I know all these things. I am asking whether God has the ability to decide about creation in His eternal now. We are not talking about a being if you think that God cannot decide.

A dogma that a Catholic accepts is that God created our of nothing. We have dualism rather than pantheism or panentheism. Some argue about panentheism however.

The Church has not made a dogmatic statement about time so there are various acceptable beliefs, such as block universe. In that view time is a subjective illusion, and God is not subject to illusion. The block universe is unchanging.

So which definition of decide are you using when you ask does “God has the ability to decide about creation”?

 

[STT]

Man describes providence using temporal terms, for example in scripture. Several words are used there from the definitions shown below:

decide verb (used with object), decided, deciding.

• to solve or conclude (a question, controversy, or struggle) by giving victory to one side:
• The judge decided the case in favor of the plaintiff.
• to determine or settle (something in dispute or doubt):
• to decide an argument.
• to bring (a person) to a decision; persuade or convince:
• The new evidence decided him.

verb (used without object), decided, deciding.
to settle something in dispute or doubt:

• The judge decided in favor of the plaintiff.
• to make a judgment or determine a preference; come to a conclusion.

So you are saying that all these definitions applies to God’s decision in different locations in Bible?

By the way, can you please have a look at post #42 and let me know your opinion? I am confused since two Catholics clearly have different believes about God. One says God decides and another says He doesn’t!

 

[STT]

A dogma that a Catholic accepts is that God created our of nothing. We have dualism rather than pantheism or panentheism. Some argue about panentheism however.

The Church has not made a dogmatic statement about time so there are various acceptable beliefs, such as block universe. In that view time is a subjective illusion, and God is not subject to illusion. The block universe is unchanging.

So which definition of decide are you using when you ask does “God has the ability to decide about creation”?

Well, lets define decision as the act of choice.

 

[Vico]

Well, lets define decision as the act of choice.

There is the act of creation: we cannot say that creation is necessary for God.

 

[STT]

There is the act of creation: we cannot say that creation is necessary for God.

Good. So God had two choices to create or not to create universe. Choice/option as it was claimed is potential in mind of intellect, in this case God. But we know that there is no potentiality in God’s mind so we are having a problem here.

By the way, can you please have a look at post #42 and let me know your opinion about it? I am confused since two Catholics clearly have different believes about God. One says God decides and another says He doesn’t!

 

[Vico]

Good. So God had two choices to create or not to create universe. Choice/option as it was claimed is potential in mind of intellect, in this case God. But we know that there is no potentiality in God’s mind so we are having a problem here.

By the way, can you please have a look at post #42 and let me know your opinion about it? I am confused since two Catholics clearly have different believes about God. One says God decides and another says He doesn’t!

God is not subject to time. God made creation not from what was pre-existing but from nothing, and in doing so created time. For us, decision is a temporal event, so can this word be applied to God? We only attempt poorly to describe the indescribable with our words. We can say that from our perspective it appears that God makes decisions throughout our history. That is how our scriptures read.

 

[STT]

God is not subject to time. God made creation not from what was pre-existing but from nothing, and in doing so created time. For us, decision is a temporal event, so can this word be applied to God? We only attempt poorly to describe the indescribable with our words. We can say that from our perspective it appears that God makes decisions throughout our history. That is how our scriptures read.

This I know. I am however arguing that having option in mind implements potentiality. Could we agree on this?

 

[Richca]

God is pure actuality. Option is potential (until decision is made). Hence God cannot decide because there is no potentiality in him.

Human beings are made in the image of God primarily in their immortal spiritual soul with the faculties of intellect and free will. God has free will, this is the teaching of the Church. We believe that God created the world with absolute freedom of counsel, not by necessity or by blind fate or chance. In other words, God could have not created the world, he freely chose to do so. However, God’s choice to freely create the world does not involve a change or potentiality in his will. The reason is because from all eternity, God knew and had freely chosen to create the world and bring it into being at some point as it were in his eternity or ‘imaginary time.’ So creation does not involve a change in God’s will. Again, from all eternity, God chose and willed to bring the world and time into being and with a beginning. Analogously, suppose I decide right now that I’m going to go for a walk in the park later this afternoon at 4pm. If I actually do go for the walk at 4pm, in one sense I’m not making a change in my choice and will to go for the walk. I decided that I was going to do this hours before and am just now following through on what I willed to do previously.

 

[Vico]

This I know. I am however arguing that having option in mind implements potentiality. Could we agree on this?

Choice is the opportunity or power of choosing. Certainly God is omnipotent.
For potential – possible but not yet actual – is a temporal word, so only has meaning in time which God is not subject to.

 

[STT]

Human beings are made in the image of God primarily in their immortal spiritual soul with the faculties of intellect and free will. God has free will, this is the teaching of the Church. We believe that God created the world with absolute freedom of counsel, not by necessity or by blind fate or chance. In other words, God could have not created the world, he freely chose to do so. However, God’s choice to freely create the world does not involve a change or potentiality in his will. The reason is because from all eternity, God knew and had freely chosen to create the world and bring it into being at some point as it were in his eternity or ‘imaginary time.’ So creation does not involve a change in God’s will. Again, from all eternity, God chose and willed to bring the world and time into being and with a beginning. Analogously, suppose I decide right now that I’m going to go for a walk in the park later this afternoon at 4pm. If I actually do go for the walk at 4pm, in one sense I’m not making a change in my choice and will to go for the walk. I decided that I was going to do this hours before and am just now following through on what I willed to do previously.

I am sorry but what you are suggesting is completely self contrary. For example: (1) God can decide, which means that God has options. (2) God knows everything in His eternal now. (1) and (2) contradict each other since God cannot have options if He knows what He choose.

Moreover, God in your teaching cannot doubt hence He cannot have options therefore He can not decide.

In addition the bold is only an statement and cannot be considered as a counter-argument against OP.

 

[STT]

Choice is the opportunity or power of choosing. Certainly God is omnipotent.

Yes, but being omnipotent has noting to do with having choice.

For potential – possible but not yet actual – is a temporal word, so only has meaning in time which God is not subject to.

This I know. But God cannot decide if He doesn’t have options. Option is potential. Hence God cannot have any option. Therefore God cannot decide.

 

[Vico]

Yes, but being omnipotent has noting to do with having choice.

This I know. But God cannot decide if He doesn’t have options. Option is potential. Hence God cannot have any option. Therefore God cannot decide.

If a decision requires time then since God is not subject to time, there could not be a decision. But God has all powers (that are not logically inconsistent) because of omnipotence.

Now it you consider the block universe, all permutations exist simultaneously (so to speak) which means that choice is only a matter for creatures.