Can God lie?

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Laudetur Iesus Christus.

God cannot lie.

Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but “the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives.”(31) “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.”(32) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 157)
Fides est certa, omni humana cognitione certior, quia in ipso Verbo Dei fundatur, qui mentiri nequit. Veritates revelatae possunt utique rationi et experientiae humanis obscurae videri, sed « maior est certitudo quae est per divinum lumen, quam quae est per lumen rationis naturalis »(119). « Decem milia difficultatum unum non efficiunt dubium »(120).
(119) Sanctus Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologiae, II-II, q. 171, a. 5, 3um: Ed. Leon. 10, 373.
(120) Ioannes Henricus Newman, Apologia pro vita sua, c. 5 , ed. M.J. Svaglic (Oxford 1967) p. 210. (Catechismus Cath. Eccl. 157)​

This is a principle both of objective reality and of Scriptural reading. It must be harmonized with any attempt to interpret any part of Holy Scripture.

The rules of Scriptural reading, as I understand them from the teachings of the Holy Spirit and the Conciliar Fathers of the Second Vatican Council are as follows:

In reading and properly understanding Sacred Scripture, the following are the preeminent principles:
I) The books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself;
II) Since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted for the sake of salvation put into sacred writings. Subject to these overarching principles, one must equally consider and harmonize each of the following:
  1. The literal meaning, that is what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.
  2. The content and unity of the whole of Scripture.
  3. The living tradition of the whole Church.
  4. The harmony among elements of the faith.
    However, these four considerations are ultimately subject to the need for harmonization with:
  5. The judgment of the living teaching office of the Church.
    (See, Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 11 - 12.)

  1. Thus any authentically Catholic interpretation of any Scriptural passage cannot conclude that God in any of the Three Persons has lied in any regard. Any passage which seems to suggest this must be regarded as insufficiently understood and must be investigated more carefully.
If one wishes to explore a passage with someone who does not recognize all of these aids to Scriptural reading, then one must insist that credible interpretations be sought until one or more are found which meet these requirements. A member of the faithful cannot “settle” for an interpretation or even an impression which suggests that God has lied, even in the smallest matter. For the faithful reader this is in part because such a reading would not comport with the requirements of harmonizing one’s reading with the other elements of God’s communication with His Church. For both the faithful reader and the reader who does not accept the aids to interpretation available through the Church, such a settlement would be unacceptable, because it would be false.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner
 
=StrawberryJam;5337884]God can stop someone’s use of free will by hardening their heart. If that is God being truthful with humans, only God knows.
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The answer is YES!!!

Mt. 11: 25 "At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; 26 yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. "

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
StrawberryJam said:
Good question nancy. How do I reply to an encyclopedia definition, and tell you wich I am of the long explainations given?

Well, here is one thing I realized after reading your post. I do think that it is impossible to define exactly which one I am. There is a great deal of pressure in this world to call oneself an agnostic so as not to be considered an athiest I admit freely. Perhaps, this has also been a reason I have convinced myself I am agnostic, rather than an athiest. I realize there are pressures and influences that could be a part of my preference to call myself that.
I did not grow up in a home where either parent had any belief in any god. I was not stopped from asking questions, and I had them. I was not stopped from having christian friends, or barred from learning about any god and had childhood friends that were believers and still are.

My christian friends have never tried to convert me, and I have never engaged them in my questions about their beliefs because I realize that could jepordize our friendships.

Quite frankly, I don’t see many reasons to believe. I could start a list of those reasons, but how will that satisfy your question? I do have an active interest to “put this to bed” once and for all now in my life. I really don’t know if I ever would have if my circumstances in life had not changed so drastically. But, I have to say I have learned much more about christian beliefs being here. Not enough to believe, but enough to see some things in a way I did not before.

I am sure this is not a helpful reply, but I am just as confused about believers as you may be about me. I have seen so many misunderstandings and statements made about those without belief here, that I wonder if any of you know anyone personally without any belief.

Sorry if this is not clear enough, but it’s as clear as I can say it now. I’m doing all I can do to see this God. I want to at least have a clear conscience that I did exhaust all the options before I die.

Thank you for asking.
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Friend, God led you here pricesly so that you can “put to bed” your concerns.

You will not accomplish that without effort and questions, so ask away.

But some “grandpa’s advice” if you donlt want to know, don’t ask 👍

Love and prayers
 
ready said:
When Jesus says to his disciples that he will not go to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths, he was not lying. That was his decision made with his disciples but not his final decision.
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Laudetur Iesus Christus.

Dear “ready:”

I agree that Jesus did not – in deed could not – lie in this instance. However, there may be a better means of harmonizing this truth with the language of the Gospel of St. John:

After this Jesus went about in Galilee; he would not go about in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jews’ feast of Tabernacles was at hand. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing. For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” For even his brothers did not believe in him. Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil. Go to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” So saying, he remained in Galilee.

But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, “Where is he?” And there was much muttering about him among the people. While some said, “He is a good man,” others said, “No, he is leading the people astray.” Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him. About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught. (John (RSV) 7:1 - 14.)

First, I would like to suggest that the references to, “brothers,” in these passages are to Jesus’ relatives and not to His disciples. However, this does not relate directly to the point at hand.

Now the three phrases which are at issue here are: “I am not going up to this feast;” “But after his brothers had gone up to the feast;” and “he also went up.”

As a preliminary matter, I will comment without going into the point too deeply, that the use of the English words “but,” “then,” and “also,” give a stronger impression of contrast than the Greek original requires. One may have used the English phrase, “and so,” rather than, “but,” and, “and then,” instead of, “then he also.” But I will leave this to more vigorous Greek scholars.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that there are two things that must be remembered in order to understand the language in St. John’s Gospel – in addition to the non-negotiable point that Jesus is not lying:

First, Jerusalem, the location of the feast of Tabernacles, is on a mountain. Hence the Greek verb used in this passage is to “go up.” This is a reference to the elevation of the city, not a special reference to the feast of Tabernacles.

With this clarified, I suggest that when Jesus says, “I am not going up to this feast,” He does not mean “I am not going up to the city,” but, “I am not going to participate in the feast.”

This is similar to two men who live in the suburbs, but have a custom of marching in the St. Patrick’s day parade in Chicago each year. One urges the other to come with him, but his friend says, “No, I am not going in to the parade this year.” Then after his friend goes, the second man goes in to Chicago and attends a conference in the city, which takes place during the time of the parade. In no sense did the friend lie. The city and the celebration are not the same.

Second, there is another feast of Tabernacles mentioned in the Gospels, which we call the Transfiguration. (Matthew 17:1ff; Mark 9:2ff; Luke 9:28ff.) Because of this, we know in retrospect that it was Jesus’ intention to undertake the feast of Tabernacles as He did both the Baptism of John and the Passover meal at the Last Supper. Once His time came, He intended to take up this feast and transform it into a sign of the New Covenant. Remember Peter’s question at the Transfiguration, “if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (Matthew (RSV) 17:4.)

This contrast may be why St. John included this reference to an earlier feast of Tabernacles, to give context and background for the Transfiguration described in the three other Gospels. This feast where Jesus’ unbelieving relatives urge Him, “show yourself to the world,” “that your disciples may see,” is significantly contrasted with the feast of the Transfiguration where Jesus’ glory was made known to His disciples.

I submit that this is a fair reading of the passage in St. John’s Gospel and that it is neither strained nor unnatural as a reading of the Greek text.

Are there other similar passages that we should consider carefully?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
To Kill someone is not necessarily murder, so for me to deceive someone is not necessarily lieing.

To take innocent blood is murder and to deceive with the intent to hurt someone is lieing. So if I kill for self defence or because I am ordered to like the military then I didnt murder and its not a sin. The same goes for lieing, to decieve with the intent to not cause someone harm or extra hardship isnt really a sin. And in Gods case I feel He can and will use lieing for the greater good which makes it not a sin.

Gods word is poetry and with any good poetry its not written with straight lines. There is a flowing beauty in the letters that are written and so with the Word. God takes the crooked and directs them to the straight and narrow. In other words everything isnt black and white and everything isnt right and wrong…

Blessings***
 
Many say God lies or has a double standard, please read the following:
God’s Double Standard
Read Luke 15:11-32

It seems that God has a double standard. He treats some of His children far worse than others.

How badly God treated John the Baptist! The Holy Spirit compelled him to live in the desert, wearing rags and eating nothing but locusts and wild honey. When John obeyed God and preached righteousness without respect of persons, God allowed him to be seized by Herod’s soldiers, imprisoned, and eventually executed.

How badly God treated Paul! Paul tells in 2 Corinthians 11:23-32 of how he was repeatedly whipped, beaten, imprisoned, stoned, betrayed, deprived of food, water, sleep, and clothing. What man in his right mind would continue under such circumstances?

How badly God treated Jesus! At one point He was sent out into the desert with nothing to eat or drink for 40 days. He was constantly on the move, both to share His message and to escape His enemies. Jesus had virtually no possessions and no place to call home, for His own home town rejected Him. When He died, He left not even a single piece of clothing, save for His loincloth. What a lousy life!

God did not merely treat them badly, He also added insult to injury. For those very same individuals He treated so harshly, He sent to bring healing and blessing to filthy sinners who were entirely undeserving, who indulged in ugly sins of perversity, immorality and idolatry.

How could God be so unfair? Why is He most stingy with those who serve Him most faithfully? Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) addresses precisely this situation. The elder son served his father faithfully year by year, while the younger son went away and squandered his inheritance. When the irresponsible younger son returns empty-handed, the father throws him a party. The elder son finds this too much to bear, and complains loudly and bitterly. His father’s answer seems like a lame excuse: “My son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.” (verse 31) If this really were so, then why didn’t the father ever throw a party for the older son?

But John the Baptist, Paul, and Jesus did not complain over their hardships. They understood the deep significance of the Father’s answer: “My son, I am always with you, and all that I have is yours”. Now what does “all that I have” refer to? Not worldly riches or possessions or power or fame, for these things have been misappropriated by Satan, and now lie under Satan’s dominion. What the Father shared with them was far more precious: namely His own presence, His own nature, His own heart which He placed within them by the gift of His Holy Spirit.

People of the world despise the Father’s gift. To them, the Holy Spirit is for drunken idiots or madmen. They see God’s promise as empty wind. But to those whose hearts have been opened, the Spirit is the wellspring of life, joy, creativity and intelligence.

Ancient Greek myths tell of the “nectar of the gods”. One sip of this heavenly nectar, and for the rest of his life the partaker became consumed with the desire for more. Now the Holy Spirit is no myth, it is the true nectar of God. To those who have truly tasted of the Holy Spirit, all of the world’s valuable treasures become tasteless as gravel.

King David knew the joy of God’s imminent presence through the Holy Spirit, for he wrote: “In Thy presence is fullness of joy, and at Thy right hand are pleasures forevermore” (Psalm 16:11), and “One day in Thy courts is better than a thousand” (Psalm 84:10). So when David sinned, his greatest fear was not that God would take away his life, status, or possessions, but that He would withdraw His Holy Spirit. This is why David cried out in anguish, “Cast me not away from Thy presence, and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me” (Psalm 51:11) .

God indeed does have a different standard for those who hearts have been knitted with His, for He counts them worthy to follow Jesus on the road to Calvary. Though the worldly may see them as cursed and afflicted (as they saw Jesus), in truth they are the recipients of a far greater blessing than this world can begin to comprehend.

Prayer: Father, You revealed Your love for us by sending Your Son to die for us (1 John 4:10). We have heard the Good News and can believe the love that You hold for us–but this is not enough for us. If we believe in Your love without tasting for ourselves, then we are still far from You. Please pour out Your love into our hearts through Your Holy Spirit(Romans 5:5). Make your presence known within us, make our bodies the dwelling-place of Your Spirit. Only then will we be able to pray as David did: “Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth I desire besides You” (Psalm 73:15).

Love of Christ Nancy:)
 
John_Hiner said:
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

Are there other similar passages that we should consider carefully?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
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No, John, that was the only passage that came to my mind. I like how you see how it would be wrong to suggest for one moment that there was not a logical reason why Jesus appears to contradict himself - without really contradicting himself.
 
Can We Understand the Bible Alike?

Sometimes when people disagree with one another about what the Bible teaches, they just dismiss the problem as though a mutual understanding is impossible or unnecessary. They may say, “It’s just a matter of interpretation.” But can we understand the Bible alike? What does the Bible itself say?

John 17:17 tells us that God’s word is truth. Yet, everyone realizes that truth does not contradict itself. Since the Bible is truth, it necessarily follows that two contradictory views of the Bible cannot both be right. If one man teaches one thing and another man teaches the opposite, it must be that one or the other does not know the truth. Yet, Jesus promised in John 8:32, “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” So, we can know the truth, and when we do we will not contradict one another.

Suppose one man said “two plus two equals four,” and another said “two plus two equals three,” and another said “two plus two equals five.” Would we say, “Oh well, it’s just a matter of interpretation, and all of them are right”? Of course not. What has happened is that one man understood that answer correctly, and the other two misunderstood differently! So it is with the Bible. We may misunderstand differently; but when we understand the Bible, we will understand it alike.

In 1 Corinthians 1:13 Paul wrote to men who were becoming divided religiously. He asked them: “Is Christ divided?” Does Jesus contradict Himself? Of course not! If He did, He would be a hypocrite! How then can two men contradict one another about what Jesus’ taught and both be right? The answer is they cannot. If they contradict one another, one is wrong and the other is right, or else both are wrong!

Our purpose in studying he Bible must be to learn the message God intended for us to learn. We might misunderstand that message differently; but when we understand it, we will understand it alike.

Love of Christ Nancy:)
 
Someone on this thread thinks that God can “stop” someone’s free-will and harden that person’s heart. I believe it was you, StrawberryJam, who thought this. I want to explain to you that that is in no way the case. God never violates our free-will. Some people haven’t the faith to commit themselves to God or the willingness to obey God and as a result have their hearts hardened by not receiving the free-gift of God to convert (a grace). That’s all. No violation of free-will involved. Just man’s abuse of his own free-will causing him not to be favored by God and causing him not to be able to receive more graces from him. It is said by some saints that our sins are counted and when we reach the peak number, our days are over and we haven’t any longer the ability to receive yet another grace. I know God is merciful up until our last moment, but that last moment is loaded with ramifications.
 
Jasonc said:
just an observation but I’m pretty sure that God can do anything he wants to do. A better question might be will he lie?
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Yes, God can do anything he wants to. But if lying in considered a sin, why would God demonstrate to us how to sin? If Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life, and Jesus is God, then God is also the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
 
ready said:
Someone on this thread thinks that God can “stop” someone’s free-will and harden that person’s heart. I believe it was you, StrawberryJam, who thought this. I want to explain to you that that is in no way the case. God never violates our free-will. Some people haven’t the faith to commit themselves to God or the willingness to obey God and as a result have their hearts hardened by not receiving the free-gift of God to convert (a grace). That’s all. No violation of free-will involved. Just man’s abuse of his own free-will causing him not to be favored by God and causing him not to be able to receive more graces from him. It is said by some saints that our sins are counted and when we reach the peak number, our days are over and we haven’t any longer the ability to receive yet another grace. I know God is merciful up until our last moment, but that last moment is loaded with ramifications.
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I hope those saints are wrong! How do they explain children dying???:eek:
 
Spiritual Doubt: Why God lets Little Children Die
Many people ask why God allows the innocent children to die? We all have to die. Not believing in God does not change that. Believers in Jesus have eternal life, and we will have a body that does not disease in Heaven. But life in this world is fragile.

Some people die young, reminding us to do our best in life and hug our family members every day before going out the door. Riches and fame do not last unto eternal life. Telling people about Jesus, making donations to charity, and loving others last unto eternity. But we are not saved by good deeds alone.

Anybody can die young. You do not necessarily live longer if you are good and shorter if you are bad. That was the erroneous idea that Job’s friends had. You can not earn good things because no one is perfect.

We are given good things by God’s grace. We all sin and deserve to die the first time we sin. Even nice people sin. But we are saved and given eternal life only by believing Jesus saved us on the cross.

In this world, every moment of life is a miracle, even living five years. The earth is in a universe of increasing disorder. The likelihood of life is null. Physicists can not explain the miracle of life. God made us and he also sustains us. Every breath we take is a miracle. Atheists take this life for granted, as if it had to exist. Do we thank God?

This life is inferior, it is full of pain, but it is temporary. It is our opportunity to choose God now. This world is in pain because God gives us free will and humans are running their world without God for a time so we can see that it does not work.

It has been asked, “Can God make a perfect world?” Yes, he can and he did. God gave us perfect health in the Garden of Eden, there were no natural disasters, no droughts, and no terrorists. It was the devil who brought death upon us, not God. We chose to leave the garden by sin.

We all start sinning at some point early in life and thus choose disobedience like Adam and Eve. All people do wrong things. The people who say there is no right and wrong can not explain why there is so much evil in this world. We suffer by the wrongs of others and of ourselves; we suffer that nature has turned against us when we left the Garden of Eden.

When God made people and gave them free will he knew we would make dumb choices. So he made a plan of redemption. He wants us to live forever in eternal bliss so much, that he gave his only begotten son on the tortuous cross to save us. And this is the God that is being criticized.

Instead of complaining that you can not live 120 years old, believe in Jesus and you will have eternal life. If you live to 120 you will feel miserably ill anyway, as the body ages and malfunctions. Instead of blaming God for the natural and man made disasters, blame the Devil and chose God.

We who choose Jesus as our God will have eternal bliss in heaven. When we die we will have an everlasting body that does not disease and never be sad again. It is a victory for believers.
 
StrawberryJam said:
I hope those saints are wrong! How do they explain children dying???:eek:
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I’m sorry, but I did a very poor job trying to explain what St. Alphonsus Liguori has written. I should not give you the impression that all people who die have reached the maximum number of sins for them. That would be to say something utterly false. But all St. Alphonsus was saying was that we all have a peak number of sins we can commit (different for each person) before God then withholds his merciful graces and keeps giving them to us, like on our death-bed. That seems to be a bit closer to what I read in St. Alphonus’ books.
 
It was my misunderstanding ready, don’t worry. I’m glad you clarifyed.
Thanks also nancy.🙂
 
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