Can God Think?

[Dameedna]

Gottle of Geer;4548141[*:

wisdom
There is nothing in God to develop - He is His Knowledge, Wisdom, Act, Life, and so on. There is nothing He can learn, because whatever has being, is from Him in the first place. It exists, & endures, & is preserved in its life, only because it is upheld by Him What He knows, is known in a single timeless act of knowing, from which nothing in creation is absent. He is beyond thinking - for to think is a sign of incompleteness, of lack of knowledge, of untapped potentiality

So we can do, something God cannot.

Doesn’t really matter wether it’s a good or bad thing. It just seems that a point has been made. We can do something, God can’t.

Is there really anything wrong with this at the end of the day?

Wouldn’t all knowlege be preferable to having to think things through!! hehe

Edited to say: We can die. God cannot. There’s another thing we can do, that God can’t

 

[Dameedna]

The scientists and engineers with whom I’ve worked were indeed atypical, in that they were “hard” scientists— physicists and astronomers. The engineers were “hard” engineers— electrical and mechanical guys who actually built things that work. Chances are that the surveys quoted included a broader range of people, many who I’d put into the category of pseudo-scientists.

With all due respect, I do not regard our “soft” or social sciences very highly, although I know and have cherished several fine practitioners in these fields.

Very good points. There is now the “science of cooking”. Yes, you can call it a science, but when refering to the majority of scientists not believing in a God, they aren’t talking about people who study the best way to chop a cabbage.

They are talking about people who understand the fabric of the universe and the mathematical models behind it, which very few humans have the capacity to understand(sorry, our brains just weren’t developed with the capacity).

Yes, the majority of scientists, or as you call them, hardcore scientists do not believe in God.

The person who studies the science of chopping a cabbage doesn’t hold a lot of weight, in terms of understanding our reality in that community.

You may not like what that community shares, but they ARE growing, and they are trusted.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Once again, this thread is not about the existence of God. If you wish to discuss that issue please join one of the many existing threads on the topic. Thank you all.

 

[Fran65]

If you don’t believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent just say so and state your reasons - in the appropriate thread.

In my opinion, the issue of thought and its definition(s) is a stalking horse for yet another argument in support of atheism.

 

[cpayne]

So we can do, something God cannot.

Doesn’t really matter wether it’s a good or bad thing. It just seems that a point has been made. We can do something, God can’t.

Is there really anything wrong with this at the end of the day?

Wouldn’t all knowlege be preferable to having to think things through!! hehe

Edited to say: We can die. God cannot. There’s another thing we can do, that God can’t

Here’s a thought on this, which is actually taken word-for-word from a different thread:

Let me offer a parallel argument. Let’s say I started a thread and said something like this:

“God cannot sin. God cannot lie. God cannot eliminate Himself from existence. God cannot learn something He does not already know. God cannot diminish in capacities. On the other hand, God cannot increase in capacities either. Etc., etc., etc. We, on the other hand, can do all these things. Therefore, God is not omnipotent, because we can do what God cannot.”

If I posted such a thread, people would write in and carefully explain to me that all these “abilities” God seemingly “lacks” do not in fact take anything away from God’s omnipotence, properly understood, because all of them in fact imply a LACK, a potential which does not exist in actuality. Since God is pure Act or actuality, God’s lack of potential is not a lack of omnipotence.

 

[cpayne]

If you don’t believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent just say so and state your reasons - in the appropriate thread.

In my opinion, the issue of thought and its definition(s) is a stalking horse for yet another argument in support of atheism.

And it’s an issue which has already been answered adequately in about three different threads, all of which are running concurrently.

 

[greylorn]

I actually think if there is a “God”, the philosophers might have been wrong on this one.

God, may not exist out of time at all. God , may have chosen to exist within time. That doesn’t mean that God ends, when time ends, only that he/she changes his/her form of existance.

Sort of like, God may be able to interfere in human life(and clean the planet of it’s pollution) but as a result of the conditions required for humans to learn(perhaps the point of life) God cannot interfere.

God, chooses to limit himself.

I think there are a lot of holes in our knowlege, and we take too much philosophical thought, as gospel

There are one or two gaps in human knowledge. It seems to me that the stuff we take as gospel is just that, gospel, and has little connection with philosophical thought (and no connection with analytical thought).

I’ve no idea where the notion that God exists outside of time came from. Probably left over from the confusing idea that God is a spiritual entity, Definitions of “spiritual” are vague, but apparently are opined to mean that God is non-physical.

That presents a problem, if God created the physical universe and can interact with it. The effective meaning of “physical” is that anything which interacts with any component of the physical universe is, by definition, physical.

Easiest to figure that God is intimately integrated with space, time, energy, matter, and all other forms of physics.

 

[greylorn]

Here’s a thought on this, which is actually taken word-for-word from a different thread:

Let me offer a parallel argument. Let’s say I started a thread and said something like this:

“God cannot sin. God cannot lie. God cannot eliminate Himself from existence. God cannot learn something He does not already know. God cannot diminish in capacities. On the other hand, God cannot increase in capacities either. Etc., etc., etc. We, on the other hand, can do all these things. Therefore, God is not omnipotent, because we can do what God cannot.”

If I posted such a thread, people would write in and carefully explain to me that all these “abilities” God seemingly “lacks” do not in fact take anything away from God’s omnipotence, properly understood, because all of them in fact imply a LACK, a potential which does not exist in actuality. Since God is pure Act or actuality, God’s lack of potential is not a lack of omnipotence.

You are mostly right about the people writing in and explaining, except that their explanations might not be careful.

Let’s consider God’s ability to think, or not, from another perspective than omnipotence. Keeping it simple…

If God cannot think, He is absolutely unimaginative.

He is, in effect, like a person who read a number of religious tracts and a bible, and chose them to represent all truth, and so no longer needs to think about the meaning and purposes of creation. Knowledge is the death of imagination.

 

[greylorn]

If you don’t believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent just say so and state your reasons - in the appropriate thread.

In my opinion, the issue of thought and its definition(s) is a stalking horse for yet another argument in support of atheism.

You are incorrect. I am of the opinion that God thinks (having examined some of his creations), yet I am not an atheist,

The real “stalking horses” for atheism are the theoretical concepts of omnipotence and omniscience, which define an entity outside of reality. Were the Creator defined reasonably, in terms of properties which could actually exist, atheists would be members of The Flat Earth Society.

 

[greylorn]

Yep, spot on 800 million agnostics and athiests.

They already do think you are nuts for believing in a creator. But it seems you are indicating the world will become a terrible place, if athiesm rule the roost.

If that’s the case, then I cannot agree with you and it sounds like a bit of fearmongering.

This is good and you are not alone in this endeavour.

You really don’t have anything to fear from athiesm though

I don’t fear any beliefs or disbeliefs. I fear their consequences.

Communism has not murdered a single Christian. However, gun carrying communists have killed many and destroyed the lives of others.

Likewise, I do not fear Islam. But I’d be pretty stupid if I expected that Muslims in political control would not do their best to make my life downright ugly.

The only point in any questions I pose about God is to induce analytical thought on the part of believers. I am certain that we live in a created universe. I am equally certain that we need a concept of the creator which is absolutely consistent with the reality of the universe He created.

 

[greylorn]

Often the argument will be, everything we create already exists in nature.

There is one, that doesn’t I believe, and we call it the “wheel”.

There’s a creative idea for you to chew on

Actually the “wheel” exists at the cellular level, in microbiological structures. Likewise rotating motors.

 

[Fran65]

which define an entity outside of reality.

I would rephrase this to: outside the reality which some restrict to what they can perceive using their human abilities.

I’ve been in this thread before and it does not seem to have moved very far since the weeks ago that I was last here.

God ‘thinks’ (according to your definition), this implies (to some) that God is not omniscient. This implies to some (not *all *theists) that God (with the attributes He has as the Christian God) does not exist.

Face it - its not going to be resolved. Although there *are some *who want to seize an opportunity to persuade others of the non existence of God - which is outside the topic of this thread.

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

To answer the question posed initially:

Can God think creatively? (Where creative thought is defined as the development by a thinking thing of an idea conceived within itself that before, temporally, did not exist in itself.)

The answer is no. And not so much because of God’s omniscience… one could imagine an omniscient God who would thus by definition know all that there is to know, and then legitimately create new information by thought, knowing a second later what He did not know a second earlier (because it didn’t exist to be known).

Rather, the answer is no because of God’s eternity.

Because God relates to time from eternity, God cannot know something He did not before, because the term “before” does not make good sense involving God. God also doesn’t change: He is eternal thought thinking first (logically, not temporally) about Himself.

This does not make God into a computer (because computers aren’t eternal). This does make God, and God’s thought, different from us, and our thought, related, compared, only by analogy, and not univocally.

 

[greylorn]

I would rephrase this to: outside the reality which some restrict to what they can perceive using their human abilities.

I’ve been in this thread before and it does not seem to have moved very far since the weeks ago that I was last here.

God ‘thinks’ (according to your definition), this implies (to some) that God is not omniscient. This implies to some (not *all *theists) that God (with the attributes He has as the Christian God) does not exist.

Face it - its not going to be resolved. Although there *are some *who want to seize an opportunity to persuade others of the non existence of God - which is outside the topic of this thread.

We’ve extended the range of human perception with instruments, and these extended perceptions can be grasped with practice. It is impossible to directly perceive a “volt,” for example, but volts can be measured and understood through their interactions with other physical entities. For $10 you can even buy an inaccurate voltmeter.

You correctly noted that the thread has not moved. I noted the same when initiating the Omnipotency Contradiction.

I disagree that it will not be resolved, although it will not be resolved here and may not be resolvable for those who have accepted the concept of an omnipotent God. That happens. Even Max Planck disagreed with the principles of quantum physics, and he’s the guy who invented the idea.

 

[Fran65]

may not be resolvable for those who have accepted the concept of an omnipotent God.

Actually, those of us who believe in a Christian God with His defined attributes have resolved it. God does not think in the way that you’ve defined it because that would mean He was not omnipotent.

What I meant by ‘unresolvable’ was that those believe in an omnipotent God will not agree with your conclusion(s) and vice versa.

We are not going to persuade eachother.

 

[greylorn]

Actually, those of us who believe in a Christian God with His defined attributes have resolved it. God does not think in the way that you’ve defined it because that would mean He was not omnipotent.

What I meant by ‘unresolvable’ was that those believe in an omnipotent God will not agree with your conclusion(s) and vice versa.

We are not going to persuade eachother.

I knew that from the outset. Wasn’t why I fired up this thread. Nonetheless, out of it we have probably figured out the answer to another religious mystery— exactly what aspect of God He chose by way of “His image and likeness.”

 

[luis_rcoelho]

don’t know who posted this topic, ad taste one.
what do you think? God created everything on earth, visible and invisible, so any one thinks God doesn’t think?
not gonna waist much time on this topic.
sounds like an atheist topic.

 

[cpayne]

I don’t think of this necessarily as a topic designed to promote any specific agenda, or to sway people from their faith. But after it’s been answered repeatedly, it becomes annoying, yet dull.

And so off to the “unsubscribe” feature, and I bid you all a relatively fond farewell.

 

[geekborj]

Can God have such a creative thought? Can God think of something which He never thought of before, and thereby create information which He did not previously know?

This question is begging the answer: No. Primarily because the question is absurd. Absurd in the line like: “Can God make a square circle?” or that “Can He make something so heavy that He cannot bear?” etc. Hence, the answer is NO because such question is impossible (logically speaking).

From the question itself: “something … He never thought of before” assumes that God is subjected by time. This is in contradiction of the omnipresence property of God. God exists not because of space-time nor anything. God is because He is.

 

[Dchsknight]

All I have to say on this is, God can do what ever he wants, when he wants, how he wants, Because he is God, who are we to say he cant think of new things, he thinks up new things every day when a baby is conceived, because everyone is different. I think it is a very dangerous and ly thing to limit God. So again, he can do what ever he wants, when he wants, how he wants.