Can Holy Orders ever be later determined to be Invalid?

[Franciscan]

I ask this based on a thread about McBrien.
Confession, to be valid, requires actual sorrow

Mariage could be declared invalid based on a number of reasons.

Doesn’t Holy Orders require ex opere operantis (an inner disposition which would include obedience)?

“Once a priest, always a priest” seems to contradict other sacraments being declared invalid.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Your question seems to conflate two ideas. The term *ex opere operantis *was the position of the Donatists in thinking that that sacraments were efficacious based upon the state of the bishop/priest who was confecting the sacrament. The Church’s teaching is that sacraments are efficacious ex opere operato or through the workings of Christ himself.

A sacrament can “fail” because the one receiving it is not in a proper state, e.g. a woman trying to receive Holy Orders, a cleric trying to marry and so on. And, yes, Holy Orders can be determined to be invalid (as happened in the Diocese of Dallas several years ago).

Deacon Ed

 

[Franciscan]

Your question seems to conflate two ideas. The term *ex opere operantis *was the position of the Donatists in thinking that that sacraments were efficacious based upon the state of the bishop/priest who was confecting the sacrament. The Church’s teaching is that sacraments are efficacious ex opere operato or through the workings of Christ himself.

A sacrament can “fail” because the one receiving it is not in a proper state, e.g. a woman trying to receive Holy Orders, a cleric trying to marry and so on. And, yes, Holy Orders can be determined to be invalid (as happened in the Diocese of Dallas several years ago).

Deacon Ed

By ex opere operantis I meant the disposition of the one receiving the sacrament not the minister.
What were the circumstances that led to this declaration in Dallas?

 

[Linuse]

According to the Church on Holy Orders, there are only two absolute requirements for ordination–baptism & male. So to declare it null will very rarely apply.

 

[Titus]

Our assistant pastor is the Judicial Vicar *(Head of the Tribunal) *and he said that although they generally look into Nullity of Marriage questions, they are deputed and ready to investigate nullity of holy orders questions. These are very rare. I think if the canonical requirements were not met then the orders could be nullified?

Since the nullity order means the sacrament was never conferred, the ‘once a priest, always a priest’ concept does not apply.

Please note the difference between Nullity of Holy Orders *(the equivalent of a marital annulment) *and defrocking or laicization *(the equivalent of a marital divorce). *

 

[Franciscan]

Our assistant pastor is the Judicial Vicar *(Head of the Tribunal) *and he said that although they generally look into Nullity of Marriage questions, they are deputed and ready to investigate nullity of holy orders questions. These are very rare. I think if the canonical requirements were not met then the orders could be nullified?

Since the nullity order means the sacrament was never conferred, the ‘once a priest, always a priest’ concept does not apply.

Please note the difference between Nullity of Holy Orders *(the equivalent of a marital annulment) *and defrocking or laicization *(the equivalent of a marital divorce). *

Thanks Titus this is helpful.
This leads me to think that it would have to be pursued by the priest himself.
Just as marriage annulment is sought by one or both of the spouses.
When the scrrening of priests fails in the seminaries it’s too late after their ordination to nullify any infiltrators. Like many of the pedofiles, communists (like the recent resignation in Poland), and even to a lesser extent bad priests-dissenters etc.
We have to settle with defrocking which is all too rare.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

With Holy Orders, for an ordination to be invalid it would basically take a woman trying to get ordained (a lack of proper matter) or the bishop to totally forget to do a major part of the Ordination Mass or in some other way fail to get the form right (lack of proper form). That is what an MC is for at major events like this, to make sure that the beloved (but senile) bishop does what he’s supposed to be doing!

 

[FrCorey]

another way is for it later to be found they lied on thier application. i.e. criminal or mental status.
or even thier schooling too.

 

[Brendan]

another way is for it later to be found they lied on thier application. i.e. criminal or mental status.
or even thier schooling too.

But that would not necessarily affect the validity of the Sacrament, which involves the intent of the Minister (the Bishop), not the recipient (the seminarian)

A wayward bishop who Baptized, Confirmed and then Ordained a new born boy would still have performed Valid Sacraments; an illicit Ordination yes, but still valid.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

The Texas case involved a priest named Rudy Kos who was the worst sex offender in the Diocese of Dallas. The bishop there determined that Kos “simulated consent” and perpetrated fraud in approaching the sacrament of Holy Orders. The Holy Father agreed and declared the man’s ordination “null and void.”

Deacon Ed

 

[Franciscan]

Deacon Ed,
Thanks fo the response.
Wow, it’s amazing that ths happened.
But pehaps the reason that a declaration of nullity of Holy Orders is so rare is that -wouldn’t it mean that the sacraments he was a minister to would also be invalid i.e. Mass?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon Ed,
Thanks fo the response.
Wow, it’s amazing that ths happened.
But pehaps the reason that a declaration of nullity of Holy Orders is so rare is that -wouldn’t it mean that the sacraments he was a minister to would also be invalid i.e. Mass?

Yes, except for Baptism where even a heretic, a Jew or a non-believer can validly baptize (under the right conditions)

Deacon Ed

 

[Titus]

Yes, except for Baptism where even a heretic, a Jew or a non-believer can validly baptize (under the right conditions)

Deacon Ed

I thought that a declaration of nullity would not affect the validity of his sacraments, legally speaking? *Not that I understand such an approach! *After all children in a marriage thought to be valid but later annulled are not illegitimate?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yes, except for Baptism where even a heretic, a Jew or a non-believer can validly baptize (under the right conditions)

Deacon Ed

Would this not mean he would not be a priest at all, but would be offering seeming Masses which would really be the offering of a layman ?​

Talk about an Achilles heel

While on the subject of invalid Masses: what is to be made of the widespread use of invalid matter in very recent times ? If a recipe for a Host contains invalidating ingredients, there has, it seems, been no Mass. And there is also the matter of the stipends received for such “Masses”.

Or is that better left to another thread ?

If Father Kos was not a priest, what becomes of the stipends received for the Masses he offered ?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I thought that a declaration of nullity would not affect the validity of his sacraments, legally speaking? *Not that I understand such an approach! *After all children in a marriage thought to be valid but later annulled are not illegitimate?

Since a legal marriage was established, if not a valid one, the children are not affected by a decree of nullity.

On the other hand, if a man was never a priest he could never celelbrate the sacraments. So he never offered Mass, married anyone validly, or forgave sins! It was quite a mess and, not being part of that diocese, I’m not sure what approach was used to “fix” the situation.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Would this not mean he would not be a priest at all, but would be offering seeming Masses which would really be the offering of a layman ?​

Talk about an Achilles heel

While on the subject of invalid Masses: what is to be made of the widespread use of invalid matter in very recent times ? If a recipe for a Host contains invalidating ingredients, there has, it seems, been no Mass. And there is also the matter of the stipends received for such “Masses”.

Yes, it is a serious problem because, as I noted in an earlier reply, he could never celebrate Mass since he wasn’t a priest.

Although your second question really is not part of the thread, I’ll toss out a quick answer. As long as the addition of other material does not make the matter something other than bread it is still valid although illicit. For example, adding honey in small quantities is illicit, but the matter would still be considered bread and, therefore, valid.

It’s only when the adulterating ingredients render the matter as something other than bread (e.g., making it into cake) that we have invalid matter.

Deacon Ed

 

[Titus]

Since a legal marriage was established, if not a valid one, the children are not affected by a decree of nullity.

On the other hand, if a man was never a priest he could never celelbrate the sacraments. So he never offered Mass, married anyone validly, or forgave sins! It was quite a mess and, not being part of that diocese, I’m not sure what approach was used to “fix” the situation.

Deacon Ed

I see. That does sound tricky! So, did all the people who attended his ‘masses’ miss their mass obligation and therefore now need to confess?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yes, it is a serious problem because, as I noted in an earlier reply, he could never celebrate Mass since he wasn’t a priest.

Although your second question really is not part of the thread, I’ll toss out a quick answer. As long as the addition of other material does not make the matter something other than bread it is still valid although illicit. For example, adding honey in small quantities is illicit, but the matter would still be considered bread and, therefore, valid.

It’s only when the adulterating ingredients render the matter as something other than bread (e.g., making it into cake) that we have invalid matter.

Deacon Ed

Thanks for answering so quickly ​

To judge from the documents quoted in Davies, “Pope Paul’s New Mass” (one of which was a recipe for Hosts), there have been many invalid Masses - over a long period. I have a copy of the book, which was written in 1980. Davies includes several documents, one of them a Roman letter to the US bishops forbidding recipes which contained invalidating ingredients.

And this is quite apart from the wrongness of supplying stipends for services not performed, which is a great evil in itself. As that is wrong - what is going to be done about the non-Masses offered by the man this thread is about ? This is not a trivial issue, but one of basic equity.

ISTM that that this should be said as plainly as possible, because the seriousness of these issues can hardly be overestimated. Looking at an issue and allowing in its full seriousness is a the first step to doing something about it - ignoring it, merely lets it fester. That a Mass is fictitious & no Mass at all, has consequences - it’s not something self-contained, devoid of all possible result; not if the Mass is remotely as important to the health of the Christians & the world as we are taught to believe that it is. All these issues have very far-reaching implications.

Sorry for “preaching to the choir” - but I often wonder whether the “managers” in the Church realise just how serious these issues are. ISTM that the Church is presided over by bureaucrats in mitres, rather than by men of God; shades of the 16th century, definitely.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

According to the Church on Holy Orders, there are only two absolute requirements for ordination–baptism & male. So to declare it null will very rarely apply.

Actually there are more. Confirmation is reguried and so is a valid novitiate for a religious priest beucase with out a valid novitiate his vows would not be vaild and without valid vows the ordination would be invalid.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

Reminder:

Topic of THIS thread is:

**Can Holy Orders ever be later determined to be Invalid?
**
Those wishing to discuss other topics which although they may be timely, of interest, or worthy of discussion, would best be addressed in a more appropriate venue with a clearly labeled thread topic devoted to them.

As always, your assistance in staying on topic is very much appreciated.