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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Victory9,
Thanks for providing this link, I did not see anywhere where it mentioned holy water, unless I misread.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
- Status
Thanks for providing this link, I did not see anywhere where it mentioned holy water, unless I misread.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
V
Victory9
Guest
ydalia-tolentino.suite101.com/sacramentals-a128649
Sacramentals, like the sacraments, are also externals signs through which people can receive God’s grace or blessing. However, sacramentals do not confer blessings or grace in the same manner as do the sacraments.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c4a1.htm
The Holy SeeCatechism of the Catholic Church
ARTICLE 1
SACRAMENTALS
1667 "Holy Mother Church has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy."173
The characteristics of sacramentals
1668 Sacramentals are instituted for the sanctification of certain ministries of the Church, certain states of life, a great variety of circumstances in Christian life, and the use of many things helpful to man. In accordance with bishops’ pastoral decisions, they can also respond to the needs, culture, and special history of the Christian people of a particular region or time. They always include a prayer, often accompanied by a specific sign, such as the laying on of hands, the sign of the cross, or the sprinkling of holy water (which recalls Baptism).
1669 Sacramentals derive from the baptismal priesthood: every baptized person is called to be a “blessing,” and to bless.174 Hence lay people may preside at certain blessings; the more a blessing concerns ecclesial and sacramental life, the more is its administration reserved to the ordained ministry (bishops, priests, or deacons).175
1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God."176
Sacramentals, like the sacraments, are also externals signs through which people can receive God’s grace or blessing. However, sacramentals do not confer blessings or grace in the same manner as do the sacraments.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c4a1.htm
The Holy SeeCatechism of the Catholic Church
ARTICLE 1
SACRAMENTALS
1667 "Holy Mother Church has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy."173
The characteristics of sacramentals
1668 Sacramentals are instituted for the sanctification of certain ministries of the Church, certain states of life, a great variety of circumstances in Christian life, and the use of many things helpful to man. In accordance with bishops’ pastoral decisions, they can also respond to the needs, culture, and special history of the Christian people of a particular region or time. They always include a prayer, often accompanied by a specific sign, such as the laying on of hands, the sign of the cross, or the sprinkling of holy water (which recalls Baptism).
1669 Sacramentals derive from the baptismal priesthood: every baptized person is called to be a “blessing,” and to bless.174 Hence lay people may preside at certain blessings; the more a blessing concerns ecclesial and sacramental life, the more is its administration reserved to the ordained ministry (bishops, priests, or deacons).175
1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God."176
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Victory9,
I am familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church reference. The thing that I have a question over it is that it says that Sacramentals prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. This is not the same as removing venial sin. Is this the same thing you are getting from that sentence in paragarph 1670.
I am going to read your references that you linked offline tomorrow. Thank you for more links.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Bookcat
Guest
PS: to what I have already noted in this thread. (particularly what St. Thomas explains)
Two notes: 1. Remember the Church blesses the holy water…in addition to what I noted above…remember there is the intercession …the blessing of the Church.
Two notes: 1. Remember the Church blesses the holy water…in addition to what I noted above…remember there is the intercession …the blessing of the Church.
- Of interest too is the fact that the rite of sprinkling with holy water can take the place of the penitential rite at Mass.
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bookcat,
Okay in response to your first note. The Church blesses Rosaries and crucifixes, but they do not remove sin.
In response to your second note - the sprinkling with holy water reminds us of the baptism that we entered when we were iniatied into the Church. I think is is the actual rite that removes the sin.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Bookcat
Guest
- Actually the pious use of blessed rosaries and crucifixes also can contribute to the forgiveness of sins…(similar to other acts of prayer and worship…and involving the intercession-prayer of the Church here as well).
- Yes of course it reminds us of baptism. It is of interest that the ordinary penitential rite is* replaced* by the sprinkling of holy water.
Thus such can contribute to the forgiveness of our venial sins…
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bookcat,
And here we are again at the word contribute. I guess it is my understanding of the word contribute. If something contributes to something, the contributing factor is not what effects a change.
It seems like a never ending cycle. I have reread the document and well it is only in the writings of St. Thomas that it comes close to saying that Holy Water forgives venial sin. I have spoken with several priests and several of my professors and they hold with the view that holy water does not forgive venial sin. Further reserach has yielded no support that holy water forgives sin except the St. Thomas’s writings.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Bookcat
Guest
St. Thomas explains what he means there. As I summarized in the last post.
God of course forgives. Not water.
“We have the prayer ( intercession) of the Church and the inclination to a movement of charity, of penance, of reverence of God and things of God etc…in the soul already living in Christ…already in a state of charity …of grace…”
Read his article 3. The objection number 1 and then the answer to the objection 1 as well as his answer to objection number 3
newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm#article3
Venial sins can be forgiven by God in various ways…holy water being particularly helpful not only via the blessing but via the sign value of the water both as a “washing” and a reminder of baptism…(indeed it can be a good way to seek to make that devotional renewal of our baptismal promises.)
J
Jim_Roberts
Guest
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All one has to tell God they are sorry and your venial sins will beforgiven; even at the beginning of the Liturgy, when God mentions your sins are forgiven, this incl;udes venial sins.
JESUS I TRUST IN YOU
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Bookcat
Guest
The old moral manual by Prummer OP (1950’s) he notes among the fruitful effects via the intercession of the Church (in dependence on the disposition etc of the person) of sacramentals is “remission of venial sin”.
Again one can look back to his confrere St. Thomas as to what that means…(as I noted above).
Again one can look back to his confrere St. Thomas as to what that means…(as I noted above).
B
Bookcat
Guest
Found the rite of blessing and sprinkling Holy water at Mass in place of the Penitential rite- online:
"Lord God almighty, creator of all life, of body and soul, we ask you to bless this water: as we use it in faith forgive our sins and save us from all illness and the power of evil.
Lord, in your mercy give us living water, always springing up as a fountain of salvation: free us, body and soul, from every danger, and admit us to your presence in purity of heart.
Grant this through Christ our Lord."
catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm
"Lord God almighty, creator of all life, of body and soul, we ask you to bless this water: as we use it in faith forgive our sins and save us from all illness and the power of evil.
Lord, in your mercy give us living water, always springing up as a fountain of salvation: free us, body and soul, from every danger, and admit us to your presence in purity of heart.
Grant this through Christ our Lord."
catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm
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Bookcat
Guest
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bookcat,
I am quite satisfied now.
Thank you for all the trouble you have gone too, and the patience you have shown to me. I swear I am a bit thick-headed at times, and make things much harder than what they need to be.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
So holy water does not remove venial sin it is God who does it. Okay this answers the question. Why oh why could this not have been said several posts earlier.St. Thomas explains what he means there. As I summarized in the last post.
God of course forgives. Not water.
I am quite satisfied now.
Thank you for all the trouble you have gone too, and the patience you have shown to me. I swear I am a bit thick-headed at times, and make things much harder than what they need to be.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bookcat,
Thank you so much for the time it has taken you to look these sites up for me and link them. I think I am willing and quite ready to say that God working through His sacramental Holy Water remits venial sin, but by God’s work and blessing alone that effects the removal of venial sin.
How is this?
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Bookcat
Guest
(Your welcome. As the dwarves say in the Hobbit “at your service” …)
The person here is of course involved…
St Thomas tells us that such would cause the remission of venial sins, in so far as they incline the soul to the movement of penance, viz., the implicit or explicit detestation of one’s sins…and in another places he mentions to the movement of charity which is aroused by such things…
(he notes elsewhere that venial sins are not thus forgiven without an act --which can be implicit --of the virtue of penance)
So I see here both the intercession of the Church via the blessing and in the person there is that movement of contrition and charity etc…more particularly aroused or strengthened etc by the use of the blessed holy water etc (via the intercession of the Church…)
You see venial sin is essential different from mortal sin. The grace of God (sanctifying grace) remains within us even when we have committed venial sins (which can happen rather more often than we would hopefully like …hence they are called often “daily sins”)…we are still alive in Christ. We as the early Christians would say are " the living". So venial sin does not need a new infusion of grace to be forgiven (where as mortal sin does).
Though with more and more of them our love is weakened, our progress in the spiritual life is impeded and our exercise of love and the other virtues etc are likewise impeded etc. So it is very good to frequent confession often and of course seek their forgiveness daily in the various other ways…via prayer, acts of contrition and love.
I very much love the use of holy water in this regards. I find it very helpful and consoling via the intercession and blessing of the Church.
Sacramentals are given us to sanctify different circumstances in life. I very much encourage this particular sacramental to be used daily
Now can it happen that I use holy water turning to God…and still not be forgiven some sin? Sure…of course. For I may still yet not be disposed. Just as I can pray “Lord forgive me…but be still holding on to the sin”.
Anyhow getting back to the question from the first.
Part of the difficulty is that the short hand that we often use the phrase: “holy water remits venial sins”. Or “Holy water washes away venial sins”. Such could be I think misunderstood.
Just like one can say “Prayer obtains what one asks”.
John can take this to mean: “Prayer itself, just by saying the words, obtains what one intends”.
And thus we would rightly object.
Or
Mary can take it to mean “Prayer, obtains what one asks if it is the will of God whom one has asked with faith” (etc)
Likewise one can mean in that short hand phrase: “Holy water remits venial sins”
in a way that is objectionable or a sense that is correct.
Hence when one goes into what is taking place in a more detailed theological way one finds the explanation of St. Thomas.
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bookcat,
So Holy Water can move us to a place where we can have venial sins remitted by increasing our charity, our virtue or penance, and things of this nature?
I think this is what you are meaning, I just wanted to clarify.
Ever since this thread, I have been using Holy Water every day. I have put holy water fonts by my doors of exit and entry of the house. And it has made me more aware of Confession of venial sins. I am thinking more about the Mercy and Love of God. I am going to Confession at least once a week. I have noticed a change in my life. Perhaps this is what St. Thomas means of Holy Water moving us to sanctity and removing venial sins.
I am just looking for something that I have experienced that I can relate to what St. Thomas is saying.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
So Holy Water can move us to a place where we can have venial sins remitted by increasing our charity, our virtue or penance, and things of this nature?
I think this is what you are meaning, I just wanted to clarify.
Ever since this thread, I have been using Holy Water every day. I have put holy water fonts by my doors of exit and entry of the house. And it has made me more aware of Confession of venial sins. I am thinking more about the Mercy and Love of God. I am going to Confession at least once a week. I have noticed a change in my life. Perhaps this is what St. Thomas means of Holy Water moving us to sanctity and removing venial sins.
I am just looking for something that I have experienced that I can relate to what St. Thomas is saying.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
B
Bookcat
Guest
Great
Let us more and more follow Jesus of Nazareth!Yes that is part of it…Holy Water is a great gift and helps us renew or baptismal promises etc …is one help in following Christ.
St. Thomas is basically saying there that the use of Holy Water (via the intercession of the Church) etc can cause such movements of charity and penance etc in us who are already the living…
Such is getting sort of at the “behind the scenes” of what can happen when we “take holy water”…that the use of the Holy Water (hopefully) moves us then and there (the charity…the penance etc…via the blessing…the intercession of the Church)…which involve the forgiveness of venial sins. Venial sins can be forgiven in many ways in daily life…our daily following of Jesus (via prayer etc) and we should seek such forgiveness and “renewal” often. Which is good… cause …we daily commit them!. Holy Water can help us in terms of forgiveness of venial sins and in other ways.
I am glad you are making use of Holy Water more often
If you have not yet…you may wish to read the blog I noted earlier. There in are quotes too of St. Theresa of Jesus and her experience with Holy Water.Praised be Jesus Christ! In him is our life and our sanctity!
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bookcat,Great
Yes that is part of it…Holy Water is a great gift and helps us renew or baptismal promises etc …is one help in following Christ.
St. Thomas is basically saying there that the use of Holy Water (via the intercession of the Church) etc can cause such movements of charity and penance etc in us who are already the living…
Such is getting sort of at the “behind the scenes” of what can happen when we “take holy water”…that the use of the Holy Water (hopefully) moves us then and there (the charity…the penance etc…via the blessing…the intercession of the Church)…which involve the forgiveness of venial sins. Venial sins can be forgiven in many ways in daily life…our daily following of Jesus (via prayer etc) and we should seek such forgiveness and “renewal” often. Which is good… cause …we daily commit them!. Holy Water can help us in terms of forgiveness of venial sins and in other ways.
I am glad you are making use of Holy Water more often
Praised be Jesus Christ! In him is our life and our sanctity!
Ahhh finally understanding gives way to a deeper faith. I am so thankful that you have hung on this long to help me with this. God bless you very, very, much.
I am glad that there is yet another way that my venial sins can be overcome and more graces to help them get remitted.
I did check out the blog, and am thankful that St. Theresa wrote about it.
God bless you.
Anathama Sit
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Bl_Pope_Pius_IX
Guest
See, I was right 
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Bl Pope Pius IX,See, I was right
Yes you were. Any my faith and my learning has increased thanks to Bookcat’s patience.
God Bless both of you.
Anathama Sit
- Status